Perfect Pass to ZO (revisited, again)

[skibug]

Our club has an 03 Response LX and an 05 SN 196, both with perfect pass.  Now we have an 09 MC 197 TT -promo tournament boat with ZO (RevQ).  To a man (and women) everyone is down at least one whole pass behind this boat.  We all ski at 34 mph (except some of the girls).  We have a couple of tournament skiers; but, the majority of us are just hackers.  One of my main ski partners runs (or did run) 3 out of every 4 clean 38's and a couple at 39 regularly.  Now he can barely run 35 (and it is a scramble). We have tried B2, B3, C2, & C3.  The boat just feels like it is relentless.  All equipment is standard. 

I am looking for any advice in regards to this boat and any tweaks, etc. that may help.  I hope I did not make a mistake getting rid of my Malibu/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-undecided.gif

[RichardDoane]

why doesn't anyone ski with an "A" setting ?

 

 

[skibug]

Thoughts were "A" pick up too late, going by the charts we have studied.  C=early, B=middle, A=late.  Our understanding is that C picks you up closest to the ball, B picks you up closer to the 1st wake and A was even later.  "A" seems like it would be on the gas when you want to be free of the boat.

[acmx]

Unfortunately that's how it is with ZO. You will get used to it ,but you'll probably feel the difference when you switch between the two systems. Seems like ZO makes me work harder, but I usually ski the same number of bouys in practice on either system. I use C3 .

[HO 410]

When you start skiing with a new speed control, there is a period of adjustment where the new system skis and feels vastly inferior to the previous. My understanding is that there was a lot of chafing going on during the transition from hand-driving to Perfect Pass. In terms of understanding, I find it best to frame A,B,C with loading the rope instead of in reference to the location of the buoy. Try A, even if just for one pass. You won't know if it's better unless you try. That said, it seems that there are certain motor and prop combinations that are more or less accommodating. As I recall, one of the early Zero Off MC's was nicknamed, "The Humbler."

[skibug]

We all sort of joked and said we were going to do the "eye doctor exam" with the 9 different setting....not tell the skier what the setting is and then ask the question...."was it better or worse than the previous"

[jwr]

I have a MC and I cant tell the difference between Zero off, Stargazer, or PP.  That being said, I have skied behind two different red/black MC's  and they both felt like Mack trucks.  Only two boats of any brand I had trouble with all year, and they did knock me down an entire pass.  I switched down to A2 and that helped some.  I would try some "A" settings and if that doesn't work talk to some prop manufacturers.  I really think it is more boat specific problem then ZO.  Both of those boats were noticeably louder then normal for MC's, too. 

[ktm300]

http://waterskimag.com/equipment/2010/03/24/zero-off-settings-exposed/ I'm trying to learn ZO too. I don't have time to run em all so called a friend who said to use C2. I think I can adapt to it.

 

I did read the above and now wonder if "The 1 setting requires the least amount of skier load to initiate the boat’s rpm swing" and "The A setting results in a slower engine response to your cut, meaning you will be farther out of your turn before the pull increases. Additionally, the pull will stay on longer as you approach your next turn. If your style favors a smoother, longer turn, you may benefit from the extra time to get your body position set before the load increases." perhaps the quicker response of 1 with the slower response of A would pick the skier up soon enough and be softer overall? Maybe someone has tried it and will chime in. I keep thinking "it pulled on me first" meaning I am keeping my speed as even as I know how and it seems to be on me. C2 does relent at the second wake whereas B2 gassed me too far past the second wake.

[skispray]

I'm A1 all the way as far as zero off settings go.  In my experience those who try it tend to like it, but everyone is different.  I can also attest to the strength of some red and black MC's - I almost always ski with zero off and at a few tourny's with those boats it felt like they were always laying down the power and leaving me in the water sooner than usual.  I think the boat/prop play a bigger role in that than the speed control.

[thager]

Try some weight in the nose, full fuel, and at least two people up front like in a tournament. The weight up front brings the nose down adding drag and the people and fuel add additional mass. This makes it harder for the engine to accelerate and decelerate settling down the speed swings. I'm 6 foot 188 lbs on an OB Eliteand was on A1. I'm really liking C2 now. Being down a run from PP sounds about standard.

[skibug]

Thanks for all the feedback.  The boat is well balanced.  I have 35 pounds under each of the front bow seats,  found the split weight works better then all the way up in the nose.  We also have 3 small canvas bags with 60 pounds of lead shot is each; so, we are able to balance the boat with only 1 or 2 persons in the boat. 

A1 to C2 seems like quite a swing; did you progress there or was it a jump?

[eleeski]

Skibug, you made an excellent choice. You will learn to love the boat and ZO.

My 04 MC was really hard to slalom well behind - maybe that's why I adapted so easily to ZO. The pull felt really hard and I was down a few buoys even with PP. Stan's 08 MC with ZO felt better - but still harder than my 97 Nautique with algae growing on the bottom. Recently we dinged the prop and replaced it with a 1/2" taller prop. The boat is a bit sluggish out of the water but the slalom pull feels a lot better. If you aren't pulling tournaments with your boat and your lake is not super short using a too tall prop might improve the feel.

Maybe the CCs feel good for slalom because the hull has so much drag (as evidenced by the turbulent table) that they are underpowered at slalom speeds. Marco might agree.

So here's the tech question: is there a setting in ZO or the ECM that softens the intensity of the throttle response without changing the timing of the hit? There's too much surplus torque for the efficient MC that translates into a hard pull. I want the hit to happen C3 early but 225hp 79 American Skier hard (soft)!

Eric

[ForrestGump]

I hated the MC until I started running A1 last year. All of the MC's have always felt like freight trains with zero off. I'm now strong enough, technically, that I made the jump to A3.  I tried B3 the other day because I felt as if the boat was on me in the preturn. But honestly, I couldn't feel a difference. It's just going to take time and trying different things. Within a month of buying a ZO boat, I loved it and would not want to go back to PP.  From what I've seen, a lot of 34mph skiers like A and a lot of 36 mph skiers like C.  Personally, I think the stronger you are fundementally, the better off you are with the higher letter and number. 

[skibug]

Has anyone tried a 3-blade versus a 4-blade prop; or, is there any insight as to what the difference would be?

[skibug]

Tried "A" settings last night; definitely not the answer.  It was very soft; but, way to late on the hook up and stayed on too long after the second wake.  "C" (2 or 3) seems to be the best fit; but, you are really punished (or at least I am) almost to the point of no return if not in perfect position when the boat picks up.  It is a little dis-heartening.  IMHO, I would almost say if you are not a tournament skier, stick with PP.

[thager]

A1 to C2 was a jump for me at first . Yeah, it hits you earlier but is also off you earlier so you can get free of the boat. You will get used to it. Just make sure your hips are up. I tried A1 yesterday for grins and it was not pretty!! C2 from here on out!

[ForrestGump]

Skibug, it's going to take  more than a couple of rides to get used to it. Once you do, you'll never notice it. 

[skibug]

I hope you guys are correct.  I never had to get used to PP or accuski.

[Deanoski]

zo off has ruined the sport !!!    ya if you have money to buy a boat with zo you can get used to it,( maybe)

 but if you are like me ski it 4-5 times in practice 4-5 turnys  you will never get used to it.

since zo off I have stop going to turny's can not run -35 with zo can not practice with zo so I will go to zo turnements this year just ski for fun I ski 3-4 days a week

 ya there are a few little guys and gals that do not slow the boat when they pull so they ski fine,    but 185-190 plus and you pull hard forget it,    you will loss a pass. 

I know many  better skiers than me and they say you lose 5-6 bouys with zo!!!   a they have zo boats.

usa water ski made a big mistake!!!        would you buy a ski that gave you 5-6 less bouys??   no!

 my 2 cents!!

Deano

[Roger]

If the boat is that strong, I would recomment C1 rather than C2 or C3. The throttle aggression is 1 to 3 with 1 being the least aggressive. I'd probably also look into having the prop worked on if it were me. I'd have some cup removed to take some of the bite away. There were certainly a handful of 09 MC TTs that were brutal...

I practice behind PP also in a 2002 SN. I use KX++ PX0. I switch to KX++ to make PP as brutal as I could. It only took a few sets before I actually liked it better than KXn. I use C2 with ZO and ski about the same buoy count. The one exception was an 09 MC TT boat that I had to use C1 behind and still struggled a bit. Any chance you can find another ZO equiped boat locally to try out so as to prove if it's the boat?

 

[bmiller3536]

I practice behind a 2004 nautique with PP and usually get to ski behind ZO once every other week. Honestly, I cannot tell that much of a difference.

"ya there are a few little guys and gals that do not slow the boat when they pull so they ski fine,    but 185-190 plus and you pull hard forget it,    you will loss a pass."

 If you are in good position when the ZO engages it does not matter how big or small you are, In fact I feel I get more width and more free of the boat when compared to PP.

 

[ForrestGump]

There were definitely some 08-09 MC's that were stupid harsh feeling. What's interesting is I skied behind a 2010 Malibu earlier in the spring that felt the same way. Then a week later skied behind an 09 Malibu with the same engine and it felt nice and soft. Props will make a huge difference on a ZO boat. Ask Scoke. His 196 prop had no cup and felt like a freight train. Once they got a prop on it with the correct(for that boat).105 cup, it felt nice and soft.

[skibug]

Luckily I have access to some top notch tournament drivers and one of the top factory promo guys who dials in a lot of the tournament boats at the tour stops.  They said for the 197 TT they actually had to add cup to the prop which to me is counter intuitive; but, I will take their word for it.  They actually do it by hand which I found to be odd; but, they said they have done it to about 20 of the 197 TT boats that were used at the tour stops, etc.  The are going to lend us one to try out.  I will report back how it goes and if it makes any difference.  Thanks to all for the input.

[RichardDoane]

Deano - you need to work on being "smooth", that way you'll ski just as well behind a ZO boat

[HO 410]

You don't necessarily have to bury the throttle, but you should push it an inch or two past the point that Zero Off engages. If you do not, ZO may no have enough throttle to work with and the boat will never get off the skier. I've forgotten this once or twice and difference in the pull is very noticeable.

[bko]

Ho 410:

in a case you described, doesn't the system beep to signal the fact that it has not enough throttle?

[scoke]

 

The feeling is all in the tip!

The tip of the prop blades that is. If you do a google or go to Acme's website, find the pictorial which shows the tips of the blades and the cup it will make sense. The cup of the prop has been a vague item for most people until now.

With Zero Off, nearly all variables are eliminated in the translation of power to the skier by the software while some of the variables just affect the wake and not the "pull". The prop is the last frontier on the variable side of things. The prop is the last thing that translates the power, more importantly the tips of the blades are driving the boat. My point is we can change horsepower, drivetrains, transmission ratios and as long as we are using zero off, the percantage differential in the change will be non-existant to the skier and his "feelings" of the boat. What the skier is actually feeling is the prop, pitch and cup of the prop.

Our boat:

The prop on it had been rebuilt at the manufacturer. We were skiing the boat in about 80 degree water but always felt a "table" or "lip" on the left side of the wake with a single driver at 28-36. Talked to quite a few senior drivers and experienced people about it and everyone suggested add weight under the passenger seat. We had to add 145lbs until the boat wake felt even. Meanwhile we were turning 3950 at 36 through the course. Lots of people commented the boat felt strong, like a train etc.

We swapped to another rebuilt prop. The wake immediately flattened out, the bump at 22 moved several inches forward and the rpms dropped to around 3750 at 36. We pulled the weight out and the boat felt great.

We took the original prop to a local guy who custom worked the prop, specifically adding "cup" to the tips. At first look, he said the prop i brought him almost had "negative" cup to it. I described what it was doing and he agreed it would do that with the negative cup in it, have no bite in the water. He hand worked the prop for us.

Popped the newly crafted prop on. We are now turning 3590-3610 at 36 and the boat feels quite a bit more manageable then it did before. Pretty amazing stuff as he added cup to all 4 tips of the prop previously reworked by the manufacturer. One of his points were sure an original manufacture can get the blades back to a near shape after a hit but it's very hard to get the tips back cupped correctly without someone putting their hands on it.

 ZO: it's all in the tip!

 

[HO 410]

bko: I believe so, but I don't recall hearing the triple beep. Could be fuzzy math in my brain, or I might have found a magic zone where ZO thinks it can still work. At any rate, the moral of the story is that if you work the throttle like you did when you drove Perfect Pass Classic, you might not get the system a chance to work to its potential.

[skibug]

Scoke, that is great stuff and it confirms what I have been told by some senior drivers and the gentlemen who is in charge of the Mastercraft promo program.  The Mastercraft promo guy told us to run it at 36 mph - B2, two people in the boat with the bimini up and watch the RPM.  He said it should be 3640 RPM; it was almost 3800 RPM.  We are going to add some cup to the tips and see what happens. 

[Whiteout01]

Guys, I currently ski almost every day behind a 99 SN 196 or 04 SN 196 both with PP and love it.  I did a clinic last year with Jodi Fisher (Great Coach) and we were behind a 09 MC w/ZO WOW what a difference.  My wife’s a 115lbs 15off 30-32MPH skier and I'm a 190lbs 5'7" hack who been stuck at 35off for four years, so I'm not the best.  But I could not believe the difference in the boats and speed control.  I could still bang out my 32's but it was significantly tougher.  I believe the setting was B2.  I thought it was partially due to the Rock Hard wakes of the MC.  I switched to 99 SN 196 primarily because my wife had a herniated L4-L5 disc and the 99 MC wake hurt her back, that's still true with the 2009 MC.  I still love MC and owned several from 80-98 so please don't take this as an MC bash, I would go back to them if they could soften up the wakes.  I'm ready to buy a new boat and I'm curious if this OZ issue only existed on MC or is it also occurring on Nautiques?  After reading through this tread I didn't see anyone commenting on the newer SN with OZ.  I have never skied in a tournament but would hate to look like a ding dong when I fall at 1 ball on 28 off because I've never practiced behind it.  How do the pros do it when there is such a big difference in the boats?  I almost want a MC with OZ to practice behind just so it easy if I ever go behind something else.  Just curious on your thoughts.  

Also, thanks for all the great info on OZ.  It my first time on the site and the knowledge I gained will be very helpfull at the next MC clinic I attend.     

[Deanoski]

Rich, Tate, Goodman and a few others feel the same way you loose 5-6 bouy's with zo and TG is as smooth as anyone!

 

Deano 

 

[bmiller3536]

So does that mean the Big Dawg Skiers would be running 2-3 buoys @ 43 off if they were using PP? Assuming that ZO is making them lose 5-6 buoys. And the pro's would be running deep into 43 off with PP?

 

[RichardDoane]

I disagree with Deano, with practice you can ski just as well with ZO.  People like to use ZO as a scapegoat.

[bmiller3536]

Same here, My best between the two is within 1/2 a buoy

[RichardDoane]

It boils down to not "blowing it" in tournaments.  There are so many little things that can go wrong, and minor mistakes that will end your pass.  An older, and much wiser skier once told me, "the way to be a good tournament skier, is to ski a lot of tournaments".  Relates back to - practice, practice, practice......

[ski6jones]

"with practice you can ski just as well with ZO"

Agreed.

The hard part is having the opportunity to practice.

Very dis-heartening if a new boat isn't in your future.

[Deanoski]

Well if I had the $$$$$$  for a new boat with zo! i'm sure I could get used to it! 

but no$$$ for new boat so the only chance I get to ski zo is at a tournaments,  the pull is way different starts late even c seams to start late and stay on you longer than PP.

over and out!!

[Roger]

Deano, what boat do you ski behind now?

[Deanoski]

Roger I ski behind  a few different boats 1990 sn 1997 sn, 2001 sn,and a 2001 mc.

 

Deano

[RichardDoane]

deano - let me know when you're on this side of the mountains, and I'll tow you w/ ZO !

[Marco]

Up until this season, I didn't have access to ZO except at the few tourneys I skied at.  Last summer I tied my Tournament PB twice behind ZO, despite not having it to practice behind.  I didn't think it was that big of a change from PP.  After my opener, I knew what to expect.  The downside was I didn't have the time to try all the setting.  Now I do, and its been fun to change settings each pass to compare the pull.

[Roger]

Marco, to be fair to Deano, what is your weight? I've found that skiers under about 170 have much less issue with ZO than skiers over that number, especially skiers over about 185...

[skinut]

I frequently ski behind a SN with Star Gazer(buddies boat) and ZO(my boat). My ball count doesn't change between the two. I can feel a difference but it doesn't seem to affect my skiing. I did ski behind a MC 197 in a tournament last year and it felt like I was skiing behind a freight train. It felt like it was always on me and I couldn't get free of the boat. It might have been phsycological since I could hear the boat revving  every time I would load the rope. It could have also been the crappy wake. And it could have been, although doubtfull, the skier. All in all I think as long as you are good position when the boat hits you that it won't hurt your ball count. I ski B3 setting and weight 160.

[Marco]

Roger- I weigh 185-190 depending on the day.  Good point about lighter skiers being less affected. Some of the lighter skiers on our lake don't even care what setting they are skiing on.  Regardless if it is ZO or PP classic, I believe the driver can make the biggest difference in the feel of the pull.

[eleeski]

Skinut makes a good point about the noise. Stan's unmuffled 08 MC is distractingly loud. That takes a while to get used to - and I have to readapt after skiing other boats.

Skibug, does your boat have mufflers? Stan claims they are available aftermarket.

Skiers who prefer ZO seem to ski A1 or C3. I've seen people change from C3 to A1 as the rope gets really short in their tournament set!

Eric

[skibug]

I have the aftermarket mufflers.

[Brodie]

Does anyone have a recommendation for a zero off setting for a 208 lb skier deep 35, occasianal 38.  I train with 6.5ng, and last year used b2 at the tournaments because i didn't know what to use.  I would say that I am not light on the line most of the time at 32 and beyond.  Thanks for any input.

[eleeski]

Jamisonsbrodie, A1 or C3. Not B! But remember my probation banner used to read "means well but clueless"...

Charlie (big guy from WA ran 35 every set) likes C3. He made me use KX- PX25 on my PP Classic to simulate that pull.

Skibug, do the mufflers work well? How expensive and hard to install were they?

Eric

[skibug]

Eric,

They came with the boat when I bought it last fall.  The promo guy I bought it from had them installed when he originally got the boat.  Sorry.  I guess they do work well; since, I can't seem to tell a differnece between this boat and any of the others in our club.