Most skiers are riding broken down skis....

[scoke]

Big assumption and big statement but it holds true for a high percentage of the short line skiers.

 Most of their skis have broken down.

Their performance is a battle to maintain nor can they excel to the next level. It IS THE SKI.

[Chef23]

How often do you need to replace a ski? I am on an HO A1 that has a season and a half on it. For me that is 6-8 sets a week from May 1 through the end of September. Is the ski broken down? How do I tell? It seems fine to me. Of course as someone who skis into 35 off I probably don't qualify as a short line skier.

[lpskier]

There is an interesting statement. How short do you have to go to be a "short line skier"? Do practice scores count, or just tournament scores? If the latter, Class C scores or just ELR? Since there is no definition that I am aware of, lets agree on one. I say anything at 55/38  or 58/35 , in other words any score over a 96, in an ELR or a 98 in a C makes you a short line skier. Too high a bar? Too low?

[DanE]

I don´t know if I´m a shortliner, wait a minute, probably not since I never ski on broken down skis.

I buy new skis more often than I change my underware.

[danbirch]

Scoke, According to your post, these (shortline) skiers should ALWAYS pick up more bouys by just buying a new ski. Right?

[Bud Man]

Anyone can have their own flex tester for around $150.00. I posted a video of how to make one including the material list and another video of how to use a flex tester. You Tube budlake1

 

IMO:

There are three categories for slalom.

1)      Open water slalom skiing

2)      Slalom course skiing

3)      Tournament slalom sking

 

If you are skiing in a course, you should have it accurate. If it is not accurate, get it accurate. For the sake of comparing, I am talking about speed control, accurate courses along with measured ropes.

 

I feel that anyone running 14.25m (28 off) at their appropriate speed should be considered a short line skier. No tournament required. I think the term short line applies to both of the bottom two categories.

[jdarwin]

FWIW, I've always referred to 28-off as where "shortline" starts.  Certainly, everyone has their own definition.

Dan - Shelby's post simply states that the skier cannot move to the next level on a broken down ski - I think we can all agree on that.  No guarantee that a new ski will accomplish the objective but a broken down ski is a guarantee it will not happen.

Bud Man - flex testers do not measure torsional flex.  That is the most common breakdown.  I flex tested a D3 X5 w/ a crack across the back behind the rear binding - at 17" it tested within 1 pound of factory.  Flex testing is an inaccurate science at best.  I use it to determine "how" stiff a ski is relative to another ski.  I've found the actual numbers useless other than in relative terms.

[Horton]

I think Shelby is partially correct but blanket statements are not always true. I kept track of my ball count last summer.  Not passes, not rides but actual buoys rounded. The total came to 3755. It would be safe to say that least 2000 of these balls were at 35 off or shorter.

I would assume with most skis on the market there would be some degradation with this amount of skiing. With this amount of skiing for two years a row I would assume that ski has reached the end of its life.  

Lighter skiers or skiers at longer line lengths will get much more use out of a ski. Perhaps two or three times as much use.  

Theoretically the O'Brian Elite and the Razor would have substantially longer useful lives because they are RTM.

 You also need to factor in other abuse. Ultraviolet rays from sunlight are very destructive to carbon fiber skis. Excessive ambient temperatures such as the inside of your car on a summer day are distructive to carbon fiber skis. Excessive swings in temperature could also be a problem. I don't happen to believe this myself but there's an urban legend that airplane travel can be destructive to your skis.  

Skis are constructed of three unique materials. a foam core, the carbon fiber and the epoxy resin that holds the carbon fiber together and bonds it to the foam core. The carbon fiber self is arguably the most durable component. With use the, epoxy will develop micro-fractures that gradually and incrementally degrade the structure. Additionally the bond between epoxy and foam core can degrade under shearing forces. This is potentially the cause of the most significant damage.

 My recommendation is, if you ski 32 off or below and or weigh less than 160 pounds your ski is still reasonably fresh after two seasons. If you are skiing 35 off or shorter, you should at least try a fresh ski every season. You should also be aware that if your ski is broken down, it may feel more comfortable than a new ski but it is most likely holding you back.

[Marco]

JTH- right on with the statement that an RTM ski lasts longer.  At the end of last season, I switched from my 4 year old Fischer to an Elite, thinking the Elite would feel more lively because it was brand new and my Fish was 4 years old.  Wrong...while the Elite was great, it didn't feel any more lively than my old Fischer.  It doesn't feel like it has broken down at all.  I put on about 200 sets per year between -28 and mid 38, and I have never been accused of being light on the line.  RTM skis hold up extremely well, or at least my Fischer did.

[danbirch]

I thought that I read somewhere that Goode skis aren't supposed to break down (due to the carbon construction, or something)? I'm going to assume that that isn't true.

[Bud Man]

Excellent point jdarwin.

I have been hoping for quite some time to see a torsional flex tester. Have you ever seen one and do you have any pictures you can share?

[jdarwin]

Bud Man - I've never seen one and my neighbor who is quite proficient at building things has pondered this as well.  Even if we were to build one, what would we be looking for?  What's the baseline?  I'm certain that the ski manufacturers have a way of measuring/testing this.  They refer to "torsional flex" in their writings.  How they determine and measure it is the answer I'm looking for.  If we were able to document it in some fashion, then we would have all the requirements to fully test a ski against breakdown.  Until then, it will remain a "feel" more than a quantified measure.

[MrJones]

"Most skiers are riding broken down skis." Scoke

Appropriate... Looking through the threads most of us are using broken down bodies as well.

[teammalibu]

Scot

You are right money can buy you new skis but we only got one body. Lets design a flex tester for these broken down bodies.

You can rebuild a body but not a ski 

[ral]

I change my ski every year. First "modern" ski was JD's 9300. Then got a white top Nomad and have upgraded every year to the latest and greatest D3 stick. Every year, after the first set in the new ski, I feel at home and have discovered better things in the new one. Only non D3 ski I have tried is the Warp. Very different ski, but got to my limit pass from the dock the first time. Goes against my non-fragile/easy-to-replace/fitted-with-factory-installed-inserts rule though.

 

 

I am lucky on the cost side, as I do not lose money on each change. However, even if it was not the case, I would spend the US$ 500-600 every year to have a fresh stick. As Scot mentions, we use broken down bodies, and an important part of the breaking process is caused by skiing. If we are crapping our most valuable physical asset for that extra buoys, and spending A LOT OF CASH in the process, to me it does not make any sense to save those US$ 500...

[A_B]

 

My friend had a 9800 that crapped out within a month this past summer.  It flex tested ok, so we concluded the torsional flex went away.  Goode confirmed that the ski no longer met the torsional flex spec.

 Did they torsionally test it?  Who knows, there is no published specs that we as consumers can hold manufacturers accountible for, and as Bud says, there is really no torsional tester out there for us to use.

The point here is to second what Joe has stated about the importance of torsion vs overall flex.

 

 

[scoke]

The only things in life that are definite: death and taxes. Everything else is a maybe.

As an Engineer, our answers usually start with "it depends" which eliminates arrogant/ignorant words like ALWAYS and NEVER from true clean logic based thinking.

I double read my post; there were no words near "ALWAYS" in anything I said. The closest I used was most.

One of my original assumptions is most high end equipment, sports equipment, breaks down over time and excessive usage or can be worn out in some form or fashion:

Carbon fiber road bikes

Tennis racquets

Gun barrels 

baseball bats

you get the idea.

The trick is knowing when your piece of equipments performance is drooping and your performance is stale due to the equipment as well as fighting for the next level is an uphill battle that just was made harder.

A high percentage of short line skiers skis are actually broken down.

this post brought to you by mac os windows 7. ugggg ;)

[6balls]

I can't ski in MN right now, and I'm pissed off.  So I'm in the gym building myself into some sort of cyborg than can ski on a busted up two by four held together by duct tape.   

[eleeski]

No way! The skis are most likely OK.

Occasionally, a ski will test differently on some parameters. But more likely it is the skier that has changed. I had a ski that I was sure had broken down. So I retired the ski. Rode a different ski for the season but ended up needing to go back out on the old ski. It skied great!

Skis get stale because the skiers adapt too well to the performance characteristics of the ski. This is good because you understand the ski. This is bad because you get lazy and lose the jagged edge of working to feel and adapt to the funky characteristics. No wonder Horton is so good - he never stays on the same ski!

Snow skis do change, however. But that you can measure easily - just push on the skis and watch them noodle. I ruin the skis on the bumps... 

Eric

[MrJones]

Not to get off on a tangent, but I have recently been thinking about how much we spend on skis vs. their durability and ability to hold value. I got back into shooting a bit this winter. Purchased a couple of new pistols and shot my old Colt Gold Cup 1911 a lot. I bought that gun used 20+ years ago and have shot it a fair bit. I am having a smith do a tune up on it now. Will be less that a C note and it will be ready go for a long time. Oh, it's probably worth 2x what I paid for it back then as well.

Funny, there are some sweet 1911's that I would like to have that are right in the same price range as a new Goode/Elite, but I consider them too expensive. Strange since they are something that would likely be passed down generationally and appreciate in value. 

Saturday night ramblings. 

[scoke]

some great reading in this thread:

http://yarchive.net/gun/barrel/barrel_life.html

 

My point when i started this thread is most shortline skiers ski often, as in A LOT. 5+ days a week 6-8 months of the year consistently pounding the wake crossings over and over and over.

 

Take any gun and shoot it 5+ days a week for 9 months and see where the accuracy stands (read thread above)

Take any raquet and hit balls with it 5+ days a week for 9 months.

 Spend 100 full days on the mountain on your snow skis and see if they are still good at the end of the year.

 

 

Shortline skiers are pushing the boundaries on our equipment. High end gear is NOT made to last forever. Nothing is for that matter.

[bmiller3536]

I am not a tennis expert but it is usually needs restrung not neccesarily a whole new raquet as far as guns; as long as your not rapid firing and you let the barrel cool between rounds the gun will be accurate for a lifetime,

It is hard to admit that it could be the operator and not the equipment 

[baja]

Top club level tennis players will go thru multiple racquets and shoes during the season. Top pros on tour may change racquets several times in a single match. Mostly for the fresh strings. Tennis balls only go around 9 games in a tour match. When I was a working musician, I changed guitar strings every week, now yearly at best. My point is that these are all consumable goods by design. The harder or more they are used, the faster they wear out or break down. In skiing my feeling is that gloves, ropes and skis are the consumables. Add up all the costs of skiing, boat gas, depreciation, maintenance, driving to the lake, tournament fees, etc. A new ski every year or two is just another that should be expected. When used as designed, it will wear out.

[Dirt]

I think the ski companies are loving scoke right now. I am not sure if he is correct, but if we convince a bunch of people the ski companies will gladly give us a free ski or two.

[Roger]

Brent, we flex tested my Fischer when we bought it 4 years ago and again last year when I bought the D3 Z7ST. The Fisher had lost 4 lbs in the tail since new (the other measurements were the same). For me, that was good as I think the tail was too stiff, but it did change in the 3 years I rode it. John's 9800 had not changed at all and he still runs his usual 3 or so at 39 on it.

 

[Horton]

Roger,

Static flex test is a crude test. I just do not know if I trust it. It is the industry standard for a fresh ski but I do not think it can be trusted for an older ski. The things that change may not show up in a static test.

[Roger]

That may be, but it's the only test I have other than "I just can't run the buoy count anymore" test. Even that is suspect to me now as I changed off the Fischer to the Z7 trying to help my buoy count and I thought it was since I started running 35 behind ZO which I had only done twice in the three years on the Fischer. The difference turned out to be buying a ZO boat.

I may be trying a new Fischer in the near future and that may tell me something about mine, but for now I feel my Fischer has at least two more passes in it that I've not learned to run yet (IE: I need help with me, not the ski)...

 

[jackski]

OK, so John,  how long should one of your carbon fins last before it's toast ?

[Horton]

The fins will last much longer than your ski

[Horton]

There was for about 2 years... but it was a bubble

[clemsondave]

Guess I'm screwed. I'm back on my '06 X5. It will be my 4th season on it.

[Horton]

Honestly the fins will last almost forever. At least 10x as long (crazy guess but I believe it to be true).

Totally different than skis.

[MattP]

For those of you with Hortons fins I warn you they are broken down by now. He is just trying to cover his a$$ by spreading this propaganda.

[clemsondave]

Brent, I was going to just ride this X5 for the winter then buy an X7 or a proper size Mid. I think I still like this thing though! Haven't tried 38 yet, so we'll see. I figure if S.Tynan is still on it....

[Horton]

Matt,

It is a good thing I like you.

If skis were are durable as my fins, they would weigh as much as jumps skis.

[scoke]

First day of summer is here.

 

Just think of all the short line skiers and guys who want to be short liners riding dead skis.

 

shame.

 

[Old MS Accout]

Scoke,

How is that Nano working out?

Any issues?

[Ham_Wallace]

2 seasons MAX.

[skibug]

Heard some of the new NANO's are "broken" down too, any truth to that?

[Old MS Accout]

OB on a Strada?????????????

[MattP]

@OB Strada? your joking right?

[Old MS Accout]

OB is addicted to Black and Orange. He tried to go white and it did not work.

[jdarwin]

By Saturday around 6:30pm, we'll know a lot more than we do now.

[Old MS Accout]

The only thing I will know is that I dont have enough water time in yet. I already have my excuse and it aint my ski.

[thager]

MS, I have to agree with you on that. I haven't skied in two weeks now. My last set was with you and Kim. Lousy weather this year! Wind must be blowing 40 mph plus right now.

[Old MS Accout]

I can tell you right now without watching. Make a nice bench out of the mid.

[Old MS Accout]

@OB When you showing up? If I get stuck in ATL tommorrow I will need to ski

[MattP]

@OB "full time driver" more like "full time lawn mower" how did he get suckered into that gig!

 

nothing has panned out in GA for the tour thus far... come down to OTown to do some skiing!

[MattP]

yea yea yea.... money smoney its all about the experience. I only have a few years left until the real world kicks in. He got to jump with a pro skier for a day. I get to live with one for the summer. I still make some money with my other jobs.... But yeah one hell of an employer to set that ] up!! He better be cranking out some big scores this summer!

[DW]

A static torsion tester is a pretty simple item. Clamp the tail flat and hold the tip in the center. Clamp a bar crosswise that you can hang some weights on in even increments at some even length away from the center. At that same point install a dial indicator to measure the twist. Downside, no real data history to start from. I also feel that this is only part of the twist story as it does not measure any dynamic effects.