Switching to Double Boots

[Justin_C]

So I'm wanting to try switching from a rear toe plate to double boots, mainly just for safety reasons but I have tried it in the past and hated it (although it was just for one set). I have my rear boot pivoted clockwise (LFF) and my front boot mounted straight (as it is when I ski with the toe plate). Any suggestions for switching? Would there be any benefit to waiting till the start of next season and doing it then?

[stone88]

Its weird at first but you should be back on track within about 10 sets. I found it really hard even to get the ski on edge at first but it feels completely natural after a few sets. I was on double animals and had them both straight forward. As for waiting till next season it might not be a bad idea depending on how much you ski. If you start at the beginning of the season you can mess around while the waters cold and your getting your body back on form

[jaredH20]

if your switching for safety reasons why not just get a hard shell?

 

[ToddL]

First time on double boots - be very patient on your deep water starts. Focus on your front foot. Seems like everyone that I know who made the switch had to relearn their deep water starts.

 

Also, some people prefer a larger rear boot. If your boots have laces, some people keep the rear boot very loose at first and slowly tighten it as they get the feel for the double boots. I still keep my rear boot a little looser than the front one. (Stradas)

[Justin_C]

Thanks, to make things more complicated, I also just switched skis so I don't know whether I should get used to them separately or just accept the loss of my next 10+ sets and maybe be used to the set up by the end of the season. As for a hardshell, I guess I honestly haven't looked into that option but I really like the high wraps and already have the double boots (from a while ago) so I was hoping I wouldn't have to spend any more money right now.

[Justin_C]

ToddL- I already start with my back foot in the toe plate so that's no worry, I'm more nervous about the edge changes and keeping my body position through the wakes. Thanks for the advice about keeping the boot loose though. I loosened my rear boot all the way last night in preparation for skiing tomorrow night. Good to know others are doing this also.

[Patrick]

I'm a newbie relatively speaking to most people here, but I had to relearn my starts when I switched to two boots. I always started with my foot in the RTP so I didn't think it'd be much different, but it really was. It might depend on how you're starting now, but with the RTP I kept the ski out in front of me a little more and didn't realize how much I was flexing my heel on starts. I had a couple failures after I put the double boots on, and a few 'harder than normal' starts after that, but it didn't take too long for starts to be as easy as before. Just ball up a bit more and keep the ski up towards the butt crack if you aren't already.

[Stewpro]

What kind did ya get / Lace up or D3 like ? I'm not so sure the hardshell is actually "Safer" than another type- that's a whole other thread. I like the security of not losing the rear foot if ya get crossed up at the wake, i.e. header! The newest D3 lace ups look like they have really good lateral control as well as some others that are similar. Usually the change in boots is the harder to get used to verses a new ski so most recommend putting your familiar bindings on the new ski first 'til you get used to the ski but hey, you're probably stronger right now and you gotta do some tuning anyways so drop the speed a couple of m.p.h. and rip it up ! Fun stuff and a whole new list of excuses !

[eleeski]

I wish I'd never switched to double boots. The toe kicker worked great for me until I adapted to double boots. Then it would come out and ding me with the one in one out falls. So I'm stuck in double boots.

 

Thr Reflex front / rear toe kicker is reasonably safe. Lots of top pros use it - including some old high level skiers.

 

Radar double boots are reasonably safe and offer high performance. Some rubber old boots have safety issues (my old animals got really hard and released quite differently when they aged). Spend the money on new boots.

 

Eric

[MrJones]

I second Eric. If I had it all to do over again I would never have switched to double boots. The only reason I did it back then was that the competition skiers I got started with all had dbl boots so I thought I should have them. I am about to do some binding experimentation this fall and have seriously considered giving the RTP a try. I recommend you stay with the toe.

[Justin_C]

Thanks for the input. It's Animals that I have and I think I will give them a try and see how it goes. If I just can't ski in them, I'll go back, if it's not that big of deal than I'll stay with the doubles. Fingers crossed

[GAJ0004]

I started out on a front boot with a rear toe plate. I bought my second slalom ski in 1993, an O'Brien Synergy Z. I had the rear toe plate on it, but bought the rear boot to try out. I always started with both feet in the bindings even with a rear toe place because the boat I learned on only had 60 horsepower. The start was a natural transition for me. I liked the rear boot so much better I never looked at a rear toe plate again. I think the double boot is safer, and gives you better control. I am also left foot forward. I pivot my rear binding clockwise. After a couple of sets you will never go back to a toe plate..

[Ham_Wallace]

I switched after 51 years kicking in. Had to, too many short set ups. The D3 T-Factors are the bomb!

[youngman]

Anyone esle run their double bindings so tight that they wont come out. I have rs1's and at the end of last season clinched the back boot up really tight. My theory was that if my back foot wont come out, my front knee/ankle wont get trashed in a bad fall. Anyone think this is a bad idea?

[swerveit]

Going double is the way! stick it out and you wont regret it and in time you will feel safe.

Depending how you ski in a toe loop you may find it comfortable to put a wedge under your heel, try it and see how you feel.

 

I was thinking about this the other day. If you go snowboarding, wakeboarding you don't put one foot in a loop, so why do it waterskiing?

In addition to this if you go snow skiing you wouldn't put your feet in rubber bindings (cold issue aside), because its dangerous. (??)

[Justin_C]

I never thought about putting a wedge under my foot but that may be a little more comfortable. I'll keep it in mind, thanks!

[ScarletArrow]

I'll also say that I wished I had not switched to double boots.

 

I only made the switch b/c of "peer pressure" - I was the only one in my little corner of the world skiing with one and everyone encouraged me to to switch to one.

 

I don't believe it's safer as I am now recovering from an injury where my front came out and my rear didn't.

 

Further, I run my rear binding so loose (or loosens on its own) in order for my ankle to flex it's almost pointless.

[swerveit]

agreed double in rubber in my opinion is not not safe, unless your rocking a couple of wellys on your stick.. Hence why I have moved to a system that allows "all in or all out". the majority of bad accidents happen when one foot stays in and another comes out. I got a pall that has RS1`s bolts them so tight that his feet never comes out, personally I have warned about this BUT to date he has never had an issue. unlike me that has had several broken ankles from hards and rubbers.

[ral]

Reflex and kicker is the way to go. I wish I could do it...

[HO 410]

Youngman, I'll go out on a limb and say that you in the minority there. Keep in mind that it is not impossible for you front foot to come out without the back foot moving, so don't expect a tight rear boot to percent a 1 in 1 out crash.

 

Because you can't prerelease during normal skiing, your best bet is to keep loosening the bungee on your rear boot untill heel-lift is an issue. Tighten a pinch and the make your front boot match. For me, the only boots that release easier are the velcro overlays on low-end slalom skis.

 

 

 

[Marco]

Youngman- I made the mistake of overtightening my bindings (front reflex, rear D3) 2 years ago, and have a nice long scar where they had to repair my snapped Achilles to show for it. Don't do it...

[jackski]

youngman - non release bindings are not a good idea ! We have someone here who skiied with non release bindings. He's still limping and waiting for his second operation. Ended skiing for him maybe forever.

[youngman]

Thanks for the advice guys.

 

Justin_c - i love the double boot set up , feels like i have alot more control. It felt really strange at first and took me a while to get used to it. One problem i had with my deep water starts was my bordies filling up with water, i solved this by scrunching up the leg of my bordies to the top of my thigh.

[Justin_C]

oh the old thong set up. I bought some shorts that did that last summer. I'm pretty sure I blinded some people with my pale white thighs. Anyway, I gave the double boots a try and don't think it will be too bad to get used to, however, my ski was acting up (hence my more recent discussion) so I figured I'd go back to what I know until I can get that figured out and then put the doubles back on.

[Than_Bogan]

Back to the original question: I made the switch years ago (after many years of RTP) and I MUCH prefer doubles once I got used to them. I just feel so much more secure. (My foot is about as wide as a broomstick so I never really found a rear toe to hang on, and I had some very scary 1-in-1-out falls that forced the change.)

 

The most critical thing in this transition was getting the pivoting right. Your rear foot was at some unknown angle and you need to duplicate that. Unfortunately, it's hard to tell if it's right except by skiing around the buoys. I initially mounted mine dead straight, which felt HORRIBLE. Eventually, I got the word that you're supposed to pivot the rear one. It took a few trys to find the right amount, but once I did, I never looked back.

 

I've even heard some people who pivoted the rear one "the wrong way." I think it's just a matter of matching where you've always stood, wherever that may be.

[GAJ0004]

I am on D3 Leverage double boots. I would only use them on D3 skis. I would always use the boots and skis made by the same manufacturer at the same time. I would be afraid to ski on my last ski (O'Brien Mapple,2000) with D3 Leverage bindings. I have never slipped out of them. My D3 Nomad RCX is a much more forgiving ski, if I get into a position where I would fall over the front the ski just stalls and stops dead in its tracks and I lose the handle. The O'Brien Contact Bindings on my last ski were like the traditional Wileys Bindings but made of stiffer material. If I took a nasty fall there were times the ski would come off. You have to be careful which bindings you use with which ski. If you have boots that don't release on an unforgiving ski, you could get hurt. When I lace up my bindings I have the rear a bit looser than the front,mostly for comfort. The double boots are safer because you reduce the chances of one foot coming out while the other stays in. I think Andy Mapple skis on a rear toe plate.