Baller Deke Posted September 22, 2011 Baller Share Posted September 22, 2011 @chef23 The baselines pretty much just facilitate the point where SG engages and a very short time after that. After that the GPS and program take over and attempt to compensate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Deke Posted September 22, 2011 Baller Share Posted September 22, 2011 @chef23 The baselines pretty much just facilitate the point where SG engages and a very short time after that. After that the GPS and program take over and attempt to compensate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Razorskier1 Posted September 22, 2011 Baller Share Posted September 22, 2011 I had something similar to what Ed experienced occur this summer. I also tried dropping the baselines and that helped, but wasn't as good as before. Talked to PP and they suggested that I re-ground the system. They said that I should cut the ground wire on the SG harness and then ground it to the ECU. For some reason they said there is sometimes a grounding issue. I did that, and now it is perfect again. My boat is a DBW 2005 MC197TT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted September 22, 2011 Baller Share Posted September 22, 2011 Razors boat runs 16.95 every time, regardless of skier, people in boat, wind, skied every ball or only made a couple and coasted the rest, killed the ball and smacked the boat on 2,4 etc...always 16.95. His doesn't overshoot, either. It goes right to speed and shuts it down just like ZO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Chef23 Posted September 22, 2011 Baller Share Posted September 22, 2011 @Deke, thanks I am going to try that. I don't think it is a ground issue but the issue that most servo based boats have I don't think they adjust to overshooting the speed as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Obermeier Posted September 22, 2011 Baller Share Posted September 22, 2011 @Chef23 - Ran it this evening with 3 different skiers. Like Deke said it just allows SG to engage at a lower rpm setting then the GPS takes it from there. I've lowered the rpm baseline for 30, 32, and 34 by about 200 rpm and all 3 speeds were running all times (one ball, three ball, full pass time) within 0.2s of actual every pass. No overshooting, no surging, no issues whatsoever. For whatever reason it works for me. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller rfa Posted September 22, 2011 Baller Share Posted September 22, 2011 @EdObermeier - Thanks, this is helpful, as I have been trying to help a friend with SG. Just to clarify, I assume you meant times were within 0.02 sec, since 0.2sec would be out of tolerance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Razorskier1 Posted September 23, 2011 Baller Share Posted September 23, 2011 I do believe the grounding issue is unique to the DBW boats, where the throttle pick up is measured electronically, rather than by cable/throttle position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Obermeier Posted September 23, 2011 Baller Share Posted September 23, 2011 @rfa - My bad, it was 0.02 sec. Generally one ball was right on, three ball right on to 0.02 off, pass time right on to 0.02 off. Sweet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Rpc29 Posted September 25, 2011 Baller Share Posted September 25, 2011 Does anyone know if this new setup will require magnets? Or will we just be able to map the courses like ZO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller alex38 Posted September 25, 2011 Baller Share Posted September 25, 2011 curious about the mechanics or interface; will we still need to put in crew weight and skier weight or will entire system "behave or work" like ZO? I have SG in a 2002 SN, works great. Love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Dirt Posted September 26, 2011 Author Baller Share Posted September 26, 2011 I don't know about the magnets but did not see them map the course. They were still putting in crew weight but it was a test box. I am not sure what the final product will be. I think it will be the same as stargazer but with the ZO Update plugged into it, so it gasses proportionately when you pull on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Razorskier1 Posted October 6, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 6, 2011 just heard "its coming along nicely -- should definitely be available by spring" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mac Posted October 11, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 11, 2011 Latest off PP's website: Oct 11, 2011: PerfectPass completes testing of its ZO simulation software at Shortline Lakes in California. Feedback was unanimously positive from a variety of skiers on all boats tested (2008 MasterCraft, 2002 American Skier and a 2001 Ski Nautique). According to those involved in the evaluation, the enhanced PerfectPass software produced an entrance gate pull and in course feel that duplicated the ZO system. In addition to the ZO feel, the enhanced software produced even tighter time tolerances pass after pass. PerfectPass plans to produce a small quantity of the Z Box Simulator Kits which will be available late this year. Pricing is yet to be set but is expected to be less than $500 and will be “plug & play” with any Star Gazer System. For an independent view of the testing log on to: http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/3811/perfectpass-zo-update-final-testing-and-evaluation-shortline-lake-elk-grove-ca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jipster43 Posted October 11, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 11, 2011 That will make my '93 Mastercraft nearly perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted October 12, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 12, 2011 ...and my '00 Nautique 196. I assume this system will still require start/end magnets, but feed the juice in the pulls like ZO? I have some concern that our old courses on the bottom may have stretched mainlines over the years so don't want the system to have to count on perfect length but rather the magnets for times. Would also be curious to know if still has the overshoot the speed issue like Gazer has had on throttle cable boats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Obermeier Posted October 12, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 12, 2011 Once again... to fix the speed overshoot issue with SG drop your baseline rpm's by 200 so the system engages earlier. That makes it settle in faster. The sooner the system engages (or stated another way, the lower the rpm it engages at - to a point of course) the sooner it settles in properly. Try it, works like a charm. Also if you haven't tried changing the tach signal to "inverted" do that also. Seems like a lot of boats need that to make it lock more quickly, particularly Malibu. GPS systems have no clue as to whether your course is long, short, missing buoys, whatever. Once they trigger (begin timing) at the entry gate (either by magnet ala SG, or by mapping a set point ala ZO) they measure off the exact distance that the next boat gate SHOULD be at and where the exit gate SHOULD be at the end of the pass. They don't trigger off anything to do with the course itself (other than to start the timer at the entry gate), they measure virtually and ASSUME your course is perfect. I.e. you can be running perfect 16.95's all day long on a long course that IF you could hand time it perfectly (no one really can but for the sake of arguement...) the REAL pass time might be say 17.05. You'll never really know UNLESS you kick it over to PP Classic and put magnets on the course. Then you'll get an actual elapsed pass time. With GPS you get virtual time, not actual. Hope that makes sense. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted October 12, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 12, 2011 Gotcha Ed, thanks. Would seem then even if course a little stretched if you want to be skiing proper tourney speed with proper tourney response times on throttle still best to run SG w/ZO emulator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Obermeier Posted October 12, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 12, 2011 Agreed. That would affect how the pull feels, which is the bitch point about the difference between ZO and SG. So I would agree, it's about how the pull feels more so than the actual pass time. If you want to feel the same pull from SG that you get with ZO (as much as that's possible) I'd say you'd want to invest in the emulator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thompjs Posted October 12, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 12, 2011 Ed, the times on a course that meets the rules for RC should be about dead on. The first year of ZO where we had PP and ZO times were typically +/- 0.01 sec. If your course is way off and you have PP adjusted to it -- well you are going the wrong speed. On another subject -- I really don't think the latest ZO software is all that different. We had tournament a few weeks ago and the SN that was here felt as soft or softer than than 2005 SN with PP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Obermeier Posted October 12, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 12, 2011 A course certified to use in an RC tournament has to be surveyed as being within tollerance so yeah, it pretty much has to be dead on. If it's not that will show up in the survey pretty quickly. My point is that you cannot tell how accurate any specific course is by simply running it with either ZO or SG, you can only gauge absolute accuracy with a survey. GPS speed control doesn't actually measure the course you're using it on, it simply measures the distance it's programmed to measure. Whether there are any buoys floating on the water or not has absolutely nothing to do with it, it's measuring a specific programmed in distance (259 meters). Nothing more. You can't adjust a GPS timing system to time out perfectly on any specific course. GPS measures the exact distance it's programmed to measure, period. You CAN however adjust PP Classic to time out exactly right for any specific course. But you're correct, if the course isn't pretty much dead on the speed you think you're going is going to be inaccurate. You can also gauge accuracy to some degree going back and forth between SG and Classic (assuming proper pre-calibration of the speed control system of course). Put magnets on the course, run it with Classic and see what times you get, these will be ACTUAL times for that specific course. If you're getting the same times for both Classic and SG (or ZO) your course is pretty accurate. If not the course needs adjustment. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted October 12, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 12, 2011 Thompjs, I agree I absolutely abused a 6.0 liter SN 200 at last tourney at 35 off in a rather big tailwind. I did not go in with that plan, but it's how it worked out. I was hauling on it behind the boat and I didn't get punished. It was pretty soft for a ZO boat. And yes, the only way to get PP times accurate if the course is stretched is a higher boat speed. It's not necessarily bad as our site has super slow water. When I go to tourney's it always feels slow (good)...but often times on PP we intentionally run hot so might run 16.82's at 35 off and we are probably stretched so boat speed is pretty hot. Might be why practice and tourney scores pretty well line up for me. Still likely to bump to SG and ZO emulator if all reports positive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller usaski1 Posted October 12, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 12, 2011 Also, this brings up something else, when the ZO simulator is finished, will PP try to get USA waterski to approve it for use in tournaments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thompjs Posted October 12, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 12, 2011 The courses in our area are all surveyed (mostly by me), so I don't get into that issue with PP. If you are way out on total length you can tell with ZO during the course setup. At least with ZO you know the boat is going the right speed. Glad to hear the SN 6.0 is nice. The ones I've been behind so far are 5.7. If your course is up on Google Earth you can use the ruler feature and be very close. My home course was set +/- 0.5in on every buoy. I get 41m +/- 0.1 m using Google earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_G Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Ed, I tried you idea of lowering the baseline by 200rpm on our 196, 2003 with SG, it came into the course at 55 KPH not the usual 57 KPH, but then around 3 ball it gased all of a suden, revs jumped up 500. So didnt work for me. I am very skeptical about this ZO emulator on my mechanical throttle boat. how can a bit of string wrapped around a spindle on a motor possibly be anything like as good as ZO drive by wire. I am thinking about converting our boat to DBW and fitting ZO, anyone out there done this. I cant stand another season of practicing with one boat then competing with something totally diferent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted October 13, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 13, 2011 I did the convert on my 2002 196 through Tim White at Inboard Solutions LLC. Was an easy conversion although my pull is slightly stiff compared to other ZO 196 and 200 boats that I ski. This has helped me out at tournaments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Dirt Posted October 14, 2011 Author Baller Share Posted October 14, 2011 I don't think there is an issue with the speed of the servo. There are very high speed servos available. If this was an issue they would replace it with a faster one. You ever yank hard on PP with the paddle wheel or pull on the switch for jump. It is very fast. I think they may have added a delay to ZO over the years to soften it up and make it feel better. Just a guess. If you don't drive it right and/or it is not set up correctly, you may still have the problem with it gassing you out of 3 ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Texas6 Posted October 16, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 16, 2011 Dirt, I have the same problem mentioned above with SG. When I lower the baseline, it comes in to the gates at a better speed but then it gases at three. What do you mean when you say "if you dont drive it right or if it is not set up correctly?" most of us at this point know how to drive as well as the idiosyncrasies of getting a skier out of the water without trying to overshoot the throttle. Am I missing something in that statement because I'm struggling with SG at the moment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Dirt Posted October 16, 2011 Author Baller Share Posted October 16, 2011 Texas6, I don't have Stargazer. I was just referring to the above comments and when drivers go up to speed too fast (overshoot) or bury the throttle like ZO, Stargazer does not work well. You should email or call PP and they can answer your questions. I was only at the testing for one day and did not drive the boats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Obermeier Posted October 16, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 16, 2011 Brent, where are your background settings? On my boat they're way lower than what the manual lists. Was able to fix a buddy's RLX after he installed SG this spring using basically the same settings I'm using on my RLXI. Maybe it only works for Malibu's ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Razorskier1 Posted October 16, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 16, 2011 Tougher with throttle cable boats. My DBW with SG I can do whatever I want with the throttle and it doesn't overshoot. I have driven a friend's boat with a cable and it is much more of an art. Really needed to sneak up on the RPMs or you are super hot first half, super slow second. Not sure other than knowing what your set point is and not pushing the throttle any further than that RPM anything else works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Obermeier Posted October 16, 2011 Baller Share Posted October 16, 2011 My buddies '06 197TT is TBW and it just locks right in at speed no matter how much you dump the throttle. The issue and all the bitching is about the cable throttle version. Razor, I know you're played with it but if you don't have to live daily with one the finer points can be elusive. Maybe some of the below suggestions are something you haven't tried yet, maybe not. Disclaimer - this stuff works with my own boat and a few others I'm aware of. Don't know why it wouldn't work for most but maybe it doesn't. Cable throttle boats - 1) don't over throttle on pull up. Find a mark to take the throttle handle to that it doesn't over throttle, and take it to the same point everytime (consistant pullups and system lock-on's). 2) lower the baseline rpm so it locks in earlier and thus settles in quicker. Around 200 rpm lower than the actual operating rpm for each speed setting works for me. 3) Try switching the tach signal input from Normal to Inverted if you haven't already. Some boats need that, some don't. Strange but important. I've seen boats fixed just by changing the tach signal to Inverted. 4) You gotta play with the background settings to tweak it in. I.e. at 34.2 Normal weight setting, my PG setting is 25, manual recommends 80 for a Malibu. Stated another way, getting the system to lock-on at the proper rpm so it settles in more quickly is a binding move, gotta find the sweet spot where it works best. The background settings, especially the Pre Gate setting, are the fin tweaks. If it's surging at three ball, in my own experience the most likely cause is that the system locked on late at too high an rpm (making the speed fast), had to make too large an adjustment lowering the rpm to adjust speed before the entry gate making it come into the course slow or slowing down at least, then once in the course still hasn't settled properly (slow 3 ball time) so has to surge at 3 to make up the difference in the second half of the course. Making every pass potentially a frustrating circus ride. Been there. May not be your exact issue but this seems to be fairly common when the system lock-on point isn't dialed in. FWIW. Occasionally mine will just freak out and take off at 3 for no apparent reason but if/when that happens it's once in a blue moon, not every set etc. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EF23 Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 ED, Thanks. I lowered my 03 SN W SG. 200 was to much, and settled on -75rpm. now I get .77-.76 now. before at baseline, I;d run .73-.75. Much better! Also, I fixed my surge promlem by setting the clock to the proper time zone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mac Posted November 3, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 3, 2011 Latest off Perfect Pass' website... Oct 26, 2011: PerfectPass sets price for new Z Box and software upgrade at $439. Availability in limited numbers is expected by year end. As part of the new software package, all Star Gazer Three Event Systems will soon feature “No Magnet Timing”, eliminating the need for course magnets and Smart Timer Magnet Sensor. Any existing Star Gazer client will be able to purchase a software upgrade stick at $99 if they wish to add this “No Magnet” feature to their existing system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mac Posted November 3, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 3, 2011 Latest off Perfect Pass' website... Oct 26, 2011: PerfectPass sets price for new Z Box and software upgrade at $439. Availability in limited numbers is expected by year end. As part of the new software package, all Star Gazer Three Event Systems will soon feature “No Magnet Timing”, eliminating the need for course magnets and Smart Timer Magnet Sensor. Any existing Star Gazer client will be able to purchase a software upgrade stick at $99 if they wish to add this “No Magnet” feature to their existing system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Obermeier Posted November 3, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 3, 2011 $99 to not have to mess with magnets again? Pretty much a no brainer. I assume this doesn't also require you to upgrade to the Z Box first? I'll be interested in seeing the details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Obermeier Posted November 3, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 3, 2011 $99 to not have to mess with magnets again? Pretty much a no brainer. I assume this doesn't also require you to upgrade to the Z Box first? I'll be interested in seeing the details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted November 3, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 3, 2011 Want to know cost of package deal for no magnet SG plus ZO emulator for throttle cable GT40...sign me up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted November 3, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 3, 2011 Want to know cost of package deal for no magnet SG plus ZO emulator for throttle cable GT40...sign me up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Razorskier1 Posted November 4, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 4, 2011 No magnets is pretty cool, although since others use my course who don't have this I will still have to keep magnets on the course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Razorskier1 Posted November 4, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 4, 2011 No magnets is pretty cool, although since others use my course who don't have this I will still have to keep magnets on the course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
east tx skier Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Agree, $99 for no magnets is a no brainer. $439 for the zero off emulator for my "needs," might be a little steep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
east tx skier Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Agree, $99 for no magnets is a no brainer. $439 for the zero off emulator for my "needs," might be a little steep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted November 4, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 4, 2011 I dunno, east, I have basically same boat as you...'00 CC 196 w/GT40. No mags and ZO pull gets to current way cheaper than buying a boat new enough to have ZO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted November 4, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 4, 2011 I dunno, east, I have basically same boat as you...'00 CC 196 w/GT40. No mags and ZO pull gets to current way cheaper than buying a boat new enough to have ZO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Razorskier1 Posted November 4, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 4, 2011 I'm all in on this deal. Will report on how it works in my 2005 MC 197TT in the spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Razorskier1 Posted November 4, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 4, 2011 I'm all in on this deal. Will report on how it works in my 2005 MC 197TT in the spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Chef23 Posted November 4, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 4, 2011 I am probably going to add the ZO upgrade to my 2002 Malibu LX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Chef23 Posted November 4, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 4, 2011 I am probably going to add the ZO upgrade to my 2002 Malibu LX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller JC McCavit Posted November 4, 2011 Baller Share Posted November 4, 2011 I will purchase both upgrades for my new StarGazer system on my 1997 Ski Nautique TSC Hull GT-40 Masters Edition. I paid $15,400.00 for the boat and trailer with 209 hours. $1250.00 for the StarGazer and will happily pay the $538.00 for the upgrades. $17,188.00 for a ski boat that will emulate a $50,000.00 ski boat with ZO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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