Back Arm Pressure

[Chuck_Dickey]

Reading an article about Nate's edge change and release has me confused as to which is my back arm. Going through the gates, which is the back arm? Is it the trailing (left arm) or the leading (right arm) which is farthest away from the boat?

[A_B]

We should probably start a convention using "leading" or "trailing" arm... I have been confused by this before.

 

I THINK it is the down arm or arm farthest from the boat, which is usually the lead arm, so right as you are going into the gates. I could have this messed up too, but that is how I have thought of it. I know some of the open to the boat guys are going to say that both arms are level and neither is back or forward of the other... that's what gets me messed up..

[Horton]

trailing arm is for sure your left going to 1/3/5

 

Chuck if we had 5 min with a handle in your hand I could show you why this is critical. I am not smart enough to do it in writing... tonight.

[brooks]

When I am coaching I refer to the trailer arm as the one that comes back on to the handle after the turn. So coming out of 1,3,5 this would be the right arm and coming out of 2,4 it would be the left. After you complete the turn and put your trailing arm back on the handle it is good to then begin to feel the pull through said trailing arm. By doing this you can feel the pull evenly, allowing you to stay balanced behind the boat. I was just looking for the mag to see what article you were talking about but couldn't find it. I will look for it again and see if I can clarify what was said there.

[DanE]

@brooks

It´s this years March issue, I´ll be looking forward to your answer because I also find this very confusing.

[6balls]

It may have been a caption for a pic rather than in an article if memory serves. The confusion seems to always stem from terminology and we have had a number of threads on same.

 

Question: it's easy to feel pressure in the arm further away (non-trailing) b/c it is simply further from the boat. Given our arms are the same length and both connected to the same spot, what is the appropriate body position or things I should try to do in order to feel more pressure on the trailing arm even though it is closer to the boat (which would seem to create arm slack, whereas the other arm would naturally have tension)? THX

[skiron07]

As I've been told before, think 50/50 with both arms

and then just pin your elbows at the edge change

[jimbrake]

6balls - "it's easy to feel pressure in the arm further away (non-trailing) b/c it is simply further from the boat." Not if you are open to the boat!

[Chuck_Dickey]

@brooks

 

The article is in the March issue and unless they flipped the picture, they clearly say the leading arm is the back arm or right arm going to ball 1

[jayski]

the outcome with having a more pronounced feeling in your trailing arm is that you will end up "opening up" more towards the boat, or be square down course...

 

things like this are triggers to aid in obtaining a correct outcome or repair a deficiency

[MattP]

@Chuck Dickey WSM has has a history of flipping images and not changing what someone wrote... seen it before we will see it again. The person who does the layouts thinks that he image will flow better the other way on the page and flips it and sometimes does not realize it changes the aspect of the article

[Roger]

@Brooks - The article is in the Fall addition of Waterski Magazine (Neilly Ross on the cover). The one page article is on page 65. The photo is not flopped...

 

For a flopped photo, look at the Insta-Slalom ad on page 76 of the same issue.

[brooks]

I have now looked at the article, it is in the march issue which most of you said, not sure where you got fall @roger but it is page 65 like you said!

 

He is referring to his right arm as the trailing arm. When I coach I would refer to my left arm as the trailing arm in this position and I know many others would as well. The terminology is definitely confusing in the way it is written but the principle isn't a bad one. In this situation I tend to think of it a little different than him because It can be confusing to people which is evident by the discussion, but hey he's the one crushing 41 right now! Ultimately a lot of you guys are right on with what you are saying. I believe what Nate is trying to describe is the feeling of keeping everything moving away from the boat and making sure the line stay tight by carrying the direction away from centerline. When he is talking about pressure in that right arm it is used to carry himself over his ski and making sure he is connected to the handle. I will still refer to my trailing arm the same way as I described in my previous post and I would say 99% of the time you will hear it that way as well

[Roger]

@brooks - because on the front of the magazine (and on the spine) is says "Fall 2011." Where does it say March?

[brooks]

Okay @Roger I see what you are saying now. I just looked at the fall issue as well. It seems that the mag did write ups on Nate in both the March and Fall issues and both fall on page 65, crazy. What's interesting too is that in the fall 2011 issue in the 1st bullet point the say to feel the pressure on your lead arm though the edge change which would be a direct comparison to the March article except correctly identifying at as the leading arm. This whole discussion has been a maze!

[Chuck_Dickey]

@brooks

 

So, one article is contradicting the other? Which one is correct, trailing arm pressure or leading arm pressure? Which one will help me stay open to the boat coming off the ball approaching the gate

[skibug]

I think this is a great article by Rossi call "Connection". It really hit home for me. Maybe it might help others that haven't read it.

 

http://www.usawaterski.org/pages/Instructional%20Articles/Slalom/Connection.pdf

 

[Horton]

Hey Chuck,

 

Open to the boat is great but not as primary as many skiers make it. Going towards one ball if you have more load in your right hand you will close off and your center of mass will move slightly back. If you have more load in your left hand your shoulders will open but more importantly your center of mass will move forward.

 

If you tie a handle to a poll - lean on the rope like you're going to one ball - relax your body-see what happens when there's more load on one arm or the other.

 

[BRY]

First post, longtime lurker but I finally got sucked in.

I was in Florida taking a lesson (first ski in 6 mo) last month and I was told to keep the load on my right arm going into 1, left arm into 2 and so forth. Backwards from what I had always thought.

Had me lean on a rope on a post on the dock. The drill was "lean like to 1 and try to hold the handle close with the left and with the right." Result for me was difficult with the left and easy with the right. Also it put the load down my frame, it was easier to hold with the right.

He said he knows Nate well, that's how Nate does it (as does he)

[Chuck_Dickey]

@horton

 

Thanks, I'll try that.

 

I remember working for weeks on a tip I saw in WSM, it was frustrating to find out the picture was flipped and made the whole article backwards.

[Horton]

Chuck,

the pull wants to come from the center of you body so if the pull is to the right of your center you will move a little left

[jipster43]

Is it possible the pressure should change from one arm to the other as you cross the wakes?

[6balls]

Just my two cents, but at shortline we are getting higher on the boat, it will be natural for the pull to begin on the inside shoulder which will be the leading shoulder just because of the angle of pull coming from the boat when we are high. The more angle a skier bites off, the more likely this is to be the case.

As the skier transitions to more behind the boat I can see how this could be a transition to back or trailing arm. I'm not very flexible, and am not as open as some. I feel it in my leading arm (right arm going to 1,3,5) as described in the Nate article.

Important to me is that if I feel the tension there (almost like a stretch), it means my upper body is relaxed, biceps relaxed, and I'm using my leverage for the pull rather than my muscle. The ski seems to run much faster and easier when I'm not honking on it.

[brooks]

@horton you are on it! @chuck what he said is right on @skibug that is a great article I would recommend everyone read it. The big key I focus on is as you turn begin feeling pressure on the trailing arm. If you stay all on your leading arm you will pitch back to the inside off the second wake like Horton described. As you exit the second wake a lot of people begin to feel that pressure again in the leading arm so they can feel themselves stay away from the boat. As opposed to telling people to pull from this position I often tell people to be aware of where that arm is so you can be conscience to continue the direction outbound. I wrote an article last year called Freedom(http://www.thewilsonbros.com/2011/05/freedom.html) that touches on the release off the second wake. Maybe give that a look.

[6balls]

That's a good explanation Brooks, thanks.

[SkiJay]

@Horton I'd be curious to see pole results on this discussion. Something like:

On my way to 1/3/5, I tend to feel most of the load:

□ in my right arm

□ in my left arm

□ equally in both arms

□ trasfer from my right arm to my left arm during the edge change

[Sethski]

First of all, Back Arm is what we called the arm that we were trying to hide from the boat back when we thought that was the way to do it. I personally still use that for the same arm which is the "leading arm" or right arm going through the gates. The trailing arm would then be the left arm.

 

I thinks Brooks hit the nail on the head in discussing it. I believe the trailing arm is super-important to keep your hips accelerating in the direction you want to go. The back arm needs to be emphasized through the second wake, but I don't think that means you need to lean hard on it...just that you need to power outbound and move through it. If you lean hard on that back arm through the transition you run the risk of BLOCKING your lower body from being able to move through and outbound. However, it is important to actually move out in a way where you keep pressure on that trailing arm such that you are moving out and through that arm until you need to release.

 

My two cents...

[Horton]

@Sethski

Awww crap. Now I am lost. Would you say it is very much a matter of perception. I think my center of mass is always a little bit back everywhere so more back arm pressure makes sense for me to work on.

 

My thinking is totally based on the the experiment of leaning on a rope on the dock. Add load to leading arm and mass goes back. Add load to training arm and mass moves forward.

 

Can you expand on the topic of blocking.

[Ed_Johnson]

Agree with Horton, back arm pressure helps me to move COM forward. It also allows me to create the most angle without building excessive speed. especially for the gate.

[Chuck_Dickey]

The way I read Seth's post means the same as Horton and Brooks as you approach the wake. The leading arm pressure going from the wake to the ball sound like holding on longer before the release. This would seem to clarify the WSM Nate article.

[Sethski]

@chuck dickey. Yeah, that's what I am saying. Again, "leading arm" being "back arm" (term coined ages ago is it was the arm

Away from the boat). Trailing arm pressure indeed moves the COM into a better spot...more in the direction of travel.

 

As far as BLOCKING, think of it this way. We know that our lower body has to move outbound through the transition in order for the ski to swing out beyond the handle path (which allows you to travel wider with the ski without having to carry the handle out wide as well...which decreases the distance you have to travel). That being said, when the back arm aka leading arm is down with a lot of pressure on it coming into the wakes, you basically have your leading shoulder in the way of your body such that you have to actual let up/give up power/stand up to open up a space large enough for your lower body to shoot through the transition and move outbound. We know that giving up power is undesirable as we in turn give up direction.

 

Another way to look at it is if the average 6 foot tall person measures 5 feet tall from the ground to the top of the shoulder, and that same person drops their back arm/leading arm down low coming into the wakes they have made the space between the water and the top of the shoulder much less than 5 feet, we have then "blocked" the 5 feet of body from effectively moving through the transition.

 

@horton does that make any sense or help?

 

Check out this link for a series of old pictures we shot years ago working on this idea. The idea is that there is trailing arm pressure coming into the wakes (sorry, those pictures aren't all there), but as I move the ski through and out, back arm/leading arm pressure is maintained...but not down pressure...and therefore the line stays tight and the path stays efficient. Please bear in mind that I was working on this for the sake of the photos...on a normal basis I mess this up quite a bit. Here is the link:

 

http://waterskitips.h2osmosis.com/?m=200803

[Razorskier1]

Blocking concept makes tons of sense to me. If I maintain too much pressure on my right arm going to 1/3/5, at some point I am going outbound and my right arm will get pulled back toward the center, blocking my body from continuing to move outbound. So releasing that pressure and transferring to my left hand at the correct point will allow center of mass to shoot outbound ahead of the ball. This is great stuff. Thanks everybody!

[scuppers]

@Razorskier1 - After all that- You said (wrote) it in the most understandable way. Thanks!

[jlittle]

For me being LFF, the sensation I sometimes feel when I put to much pressure on my right side/shoulder heading to 1 ball is (blocking as @Sethski stated)... I get stuck on my front foot. My ski does not release out, my edge change is sluggish, or slow and I end up with less space before the ball.

[Chuck_Dickey]

@Sethski

 

makes perfect sense. Great article as well.

 

Let me know when you are coming to So. Cal, I'd like to book you at our lake.

[TSki]

So getting in a lean lock is the ultimate example of blocking? Too much pressure on the back shoulder and so you can't change edges at all!!