How long did it take you to go from 15 off to running 28 off?

[T-fromTO]

It would be good for beginning skiers to hear what is a realistic time line for achieving this goal. I know it will depend on a number of factors like time on the water, coaching, etc. But what were your experiences going from 15 to 28? In hindsight, is there anything you would/could have done differently to get there sooner?

 

(Secretly I'm hoping to hear from people who took a long time so I don't feel so bad about myself.)

[Razorskier1]

Oh boy. I'm going to say it was at least 5 years. At the time I was still a 36mph guy (about 30 at the time), so I first had to master 15 off at 28mph, 32mph, 34mph, and 36mph before I was even considering shortening the line. I had skied my whole life, just never in a course. At age 35, just before slowing down, I finally made 28 off in practice, but never made it in a tournament until I got to "old guy speed". Somewhere around age 38 I was able to make 32 off, but was getting slaughtered every time I tried -35. I went to ski with Lucky. He had me run down the line once to see what I could do. When I got to -35 I came around the first two balls with a pile of slack, which I was dumb enough at the time to hold on to. When I fell, he came back and said "what in the hell do you think you're doing!?!". I told him I was trying to run -35. He told me I was going to kill myself.

 

Within a month of seeing Lucky I ran -35 in a tournament. Cool beans! It took me probably another 5 years to get consistent at -35. Now that I run that one consistently I'm waging the same fight again at -38. Figured out some new things that I am working on right now that I am hoping take my -38 from a 25-30% success rate to closer to 50% this year.

 

Getting short for mortals is a long process of learning, learning, and re-learning.

[6balls]

We used to put in a course for 1 week/year when I was a kid on vacation. Ran 15 off at 30, 32, 34 mph was a stretch.

Went to college and got on ski team. Within a month of having consistent course time was getting through 28 off skiing all wrong (like a bull). Ran it in a tourney the next year and then fought 32 off 36 mph for a over 10 years. Just before going to M3, at age 34, I finally got thru 36 mph 35 off in practice but never a tourney. Now running solid 35's at 34 mph, occasional successful 38...want better frequency this year...I'm 5 years into 34 mph and the gains have been SO incremental.

[swc5150]

By beginner, do you mean skiing or balling? We were primarily open water slalom skiers growing up, with occassional course experience. Once I started skiing a course on a regular basis, and after being able to run 22's in my sleep, -28 came pretty quickly, as I was already comfortable on a slalom ski, meaning it was easy to adapt/transition to proper course skiing form or technique... not that my technique still doesn't have a long way to go, but you get the idea. It probably took me a couple of weeks to get really comfortable running -28 at speed. I just slowed down to 30 to get through it, then up to 32, etc. Now it's those darn passes that start with a 3 that are my nemeses! Video and time on the water are key for me.

[eleeski]

15 years.

 

I hated 36. Never ran 28 36 in a tournament. Did it in practice only after I aged to 34mph and figured it out at the slower speed.

 

Of course in my early days we had to run the slower speeds at longline. 36 longline really sucks.

 

Slalom's learning curve sucks. No wonder I like tricking.

 

Eric

[markchilcutt]

I also grew up skiing open water with friends never had a boat growing up. Had my first tourney boat 14yrs ago still no course skiing then had to sell it after 3 seasons (built new house)!!! Finally in 06 i bought another tourney boat and joined Utah lake W Ski club and started hacking away at bouys!! First season i managed to run -15 at 34mph i was 36yrs old then. Made it threw -22 and tapped into -28 the 2nd season of full time course access, skiing 2 to 3 days a week from April to October very little coaching at this point. pretty sure i ran -28 my 3rd season but it was really painful as in lower back pain (still no real coaching). Struggled with lower back during season 4 and 5 due to wrong technique but learned a ton thanks to guys like Rossi, Nick Parsons, Marcus Brown, Wade Williams, Jason Hutchins, Jeff Milford, Mike Parsons,Keith Morgan,Tom Henderson and Carly Clifton (yes very fortunate to have spent time on the water with several very gifted skiers and coaches). last season yr 5 managed 1or 2 @ -35 in a tourny and have skied around 4 inpractice but not back to the guides. I think the best advice so far has been stay strong, healthy and loss some weight and do not miss passes while practicing. So i go 15 22 28 full speed then slow .5mph at -32 and 1.0mph at -35. This is working out great i am building hugh confidence knowing i can run -32 .5mph slow and its only April. Plus i have already tied last years practice PB granted the boat was only 33.2mph still big confidence booster. I feel core strenght is at an all time high for me and cardio is getting better. Spend time with skiers that R better than you who want to coach you and or take a lot of video of yourself and study it. Most of all have fun, enjoy the ride and dont get frustrated in this sport it only pushes you backwards (IMHO)!!!!!!

[Than_Bogan]

First time I ran 36/-15 in a tournament was 1995. It was a fluke that I almost never repeated in practice.

 

First time I ran 36/-28 in a tournament was 2000.

 

The first time I ran 36/-32 in a tournament was ... about 30 seconds later. I wonder if I'm the only person to succeed on his first ever tournament attempt at -32? But this was a very weird scenario. I'd been running -28 a ton in practice and -32 sometimes, and I had just gotten a new ski (Goode 9100) that literally had gotten me an extra pass in practice. Plus, I had made huge leaps in my ... you guessed it ... body position behind the boat.

 

I never ran 36/-35 in a tournament, but the first time I ran 34/-38 (which is similar difficulty in my opinion) in a tournament was 2011.

[Killer]

about 15-20 years for me, I could run 22off as a teenager, but I had a lot of time off from age 20 or so (now 32), with very little course time until about 5 years ago when I couldn't run 32mph 15off consistently...

 

still nowhere near mastering 28off. my goal this year. Only started running it last season, have had a few balls at 32off.

 

coaching is a key, but so is good equipment, preparation, conditioning and knowing the theory behind what you're doing or not doing (coaching comes into play here).

 

and whoever said time on water - probably the biggest thing. time in the course equally as important for most. If you can't run 22off you aren't going to run 28off with any consistency, just like you wont run 35 off if you aren't running 32off. it simply doesn't work that way for the vast majority of people.

 

If you are working on 22 and 28off in the course, ski at 28 and 32off open water. you will get used to the faster speeds, difficulty maintaining line tension, and the quicker edge change with shorterlines.

 

I try to slow the boat down with new line lengths as well. Something Rossi has mentioned worked for him in the past, 1/2 mph to 1mph slower to start and bump it up 1/2mph at a time. 32mph is too drastic a jump to 34 IMO. I watched all of Terry Winters video's and a key he talks about is running 90% of your passes. if you aren't making 6 balls 90% of the time at 22off, dont spend all your time at 28off. its good to try that length as its different, but being able to run a pass means you are doing things right, just takes a small adjustment to make the next step.

 

[ForrestGump]

2 1/2 years. And another 3 years to run 35.

[Than_Bogan]

Where do I sign up for this "gifted athlete" thing? That's sounds pretty handy! :)

[markchilcutt]

Well said OB!!!!! Sic skiing dude!!!

 

[The_MS]

I went from 15 into 35 off in a year. was stuck at 2@38 forever (still am).

[thager]

Over half my lifetime since 1969. Now fighting with -35 @ girl speed. Only run that once. Zippo since Zero. Just like flying. The more instruction and time you put in the better it gets till age catches up!

 

[ForrestGump]

MS, Charles said you basically half lived at his ski school and was double the age of his average student. LOL

[Ntq206]

@MS - Dude!! 15 to 35 in a year! You must have a secret kryptonite stash somewhere.

My new goal!

[GAJ0004]

I started skiing the course at age 16, but I ran the course at 36MPH with a 75 foot rope for a couple of years. I spent more time trick skiing in those days. I did not know about rope shortening until 1986. A couple of years later I was able to get into 32 off at 34 MPH through trial and error. When I started 36MPH I could only run 15 off for about 1/3 of the time. I was not able to get past 15 off consistently until 1993, and 1995 after going to Mike Hazelwood's ski school, and Andy and Deena Mapple's ski school. Ben Favret was at Andy's at the time. The both really helped me master the entrance gate which for me was the key. Decades later my personal best in practice is 3@35 off 34 MPH, and 2@35off 36 MPH. Today in most conditions I am able to run 4@32 off cold off the dock every time behind PPSG or Zero off. 4@32off is my best tournament score. I have only been in 5 tournaments in my entire life. I am planning to do all of the tournaments at Dave's Pond in Edinboro PA this summer. I was getting 1-2 at 35off cold of the dock in practice every time after I picked up a tip from John Burns at the Bellalago slalom tournament in OH last August. My goal is to break into the top 5 in men 3 slalom in Ohio. I am 8th right now..

 

[RichardDoane]

if you can pick up an increase in speed, or a line segment every year in the course that would be good progress, but as age catches up and the line gets shorter it gets tougher

[The_MS]

Charles is a good coach. I free skied my whole life and did not get in the course until I was 35. It just took some timing changes and I was into 38. Just look at the pic posted in the 90s thread and that shows you I didnt have a clue about slalom skiing. I never skied without a shorty or pussy leg until I got in the course.

[Deke]

Time on the water, not years, is a key factor.

 

Looking at @OB 's progress in '98 and '99 where he went from 15/32 to 22/34 and then 22/34 to 28/36 is enlightening. There's the old saying that it takes 5000-10000 repetitions to master a technique and it seems to hold true here as well. I figure that skiing 5 days a week for 8 months amounts to about 3060 passes, or 18360 turns. In each of those years he progressed 2 steps, 1 speed increase and 1 line length. So it would look like it took 9180 turns to progress each step. Those old Zen Masters were on to something.

 

At the rate that I ski, it would take me 3.5 years to progress a single step, which in my case are 2 mph speed increases at 15 off. I think I'm right on track. Oh sh1t, that means I've got another 8 years to go to reach 28 off.

[ral]

3 years for running it in practice for the first time.

[ForrestGump]

Deke, actually a sports physiologist will tell you a pro athlete takes 1000 correct repetitions to ingrain something into muscle memory. The key is correct repetitions, not just repetitions. Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice does.

[skidawg]

MS is part golden retriever, just sitting and waiting for someone to drive the boat.

[T-fromTO]

@swc5150 I meant from the time one started course skiing, so not including years spent open water skiing.

 

I imagine I will be able to run 28off this season as I left off last season with 2 at 28. If that is the case, it will be 7 seasons of course skiing to make it from 15-28 for me.

 

I wish I was more of a natural athlete. I think that is the problem for me as everything else is in place (fitness, equipment, decent coaching, time on the water, etc.) Oh well, I guess we just have to work with what we have and try to have fun of course.

 

Sometimes I don't have as much fun as I should because I'm too busy beating myself up over my slow progression.

[The_MS]

@skidawg Its actually American Water Spaniel.

[Laz]

If slalom was easy, I would have gotten bored and given it up long ago. The challenge of the sport is the main reason I keep at it and enjoy it so much.

 

This season I need to rebuild my swing from the ground up or I will never run 32' off again!!

[ForrestGump]

The right ski partner or coach is everything, IMO.

[Ntq206]

..

[ntx]

@shaneh Yes, the coach helps, but the student has to apply what the coach says. Over the past 35 years I have worked with a ton of skiers. Ranging from real good to, how do you say....... real bad. Back in the late 80's, several of us were setting a course in a city park. A late 20's guy comes up to us says that he free skis for several years and wanted to try. Said he skis at 36. We knew better than to pull him 36 and talked him into 30mph to start. First pass ever in the course smokes 30. Up to 32. Smoke. Before he got in the boat that set, he ran 2@-32 @ 36 mph and did not miss his first ball till -28. He did run -28 on his 2nd try. Great technique. Others have struggled with hips behind their shoulders for years and never get it right. They even go out and buy the best ski on the market, with hard shell boots and guess what........... HIPS ARE STILL BEHIND THE SHOULDERS. Some never get it. Then, when they go out the front, and the shells don't release, and they tear up the ankle, Guess what, they still don't get it. Its not always the coach or the ski. Sometimes its just you. Good and Bad.

[markchilcutt]

@scotchipman have Kelley read the above post from ntx. I think if she can get the hips in front she will take her skiing to the next level. I think she will best accomplish this in open water. JMO

MC

[Ntq206]

@ntx - I agree to some point, but if the instruction is simply to tell beginners to get their hips up - it doesn't always work. In reality, it's not that simple. I believe it takes different approaches for different skiers to figure out exactly the elements that prevent them from getting their hips up.

 

I do believe time on the water is critical. Speaking for my own experience, there was a period of time that it took to gain "confidence of balance" throughout many movements and positions behind the boat before I truly started to feel comfortable enough to apply the instruction.

If there is any sub-conscious "un-certainty of balance", we are somewhat psychologically impeded to really apply it - and this slows progress.

 

Its easy to forget how much that confidence of balance affects us. I remember watching a youtube video of Krista Rogers skiing on a wood plank. Besides the video being pretty entertaining, it was also a evidence of how this obvious uncertainty of balance was a bit like rolling back a tape to the beginning of learning slalom where the 'un-certainty of balance' was forcing her body into those familiar traits we try not to do.

This is obviously an extreme (and perhaps unfair) example, but you can kind of see how it relates and messes with our heads to do things we know we shouldn't do. (Although her position was pretty good considering..)

 

I think this is where time on the water is simply gate-admission to progress.