Pre-Turn...

[H2OSkiGirl]

I am a W3 skier who would like to know how to have a pre-turn! I am strong, I love waterskiing and like all of you, I want to get better! I have a problem with pulling too long into the buoy and I would LOVE to hear what you suggest I try to help me out:-) Thank you!!!

[MattP]

@H2OSkiGirl what speed, line length are you skiing at? Posting a video would be great way for us to see whats going on and try to help you out!

[LeonL]

As @MattP stated, a video is best, but self analyze and ask, why do you pull too long? Do you feel that you're going to be narrow or late? Pull a little shorter, initiate a good preturn, keep the handle close and trust your ski, then see where you arrive at the ball. That's a little simplistic, but give it a try and post a video.

[ToddL]

Think about this... You need generate your momentum and direction of travel during your trip from end of the turn to the centerline of the boat's path. After the centerline, you just maintain your lean (do not add leverage) until you ski is just barely past the second wake. Then you start you edge change. If you generated enough leverage and speed on the way in, you will have what you need to cast out wide of the buoy. I don't know what speed and line you are at... Very slow speeds require a longer pull, like maybe a ski length past the second wake or more. However, as you reach your max speed, you should be generating your momentum by the time you reach the center line. Thus, you only have to maintain your lean to the second wake. And always initiate your turn before you get to the buoy. If you are waiting to see if you're going to round the buoy before committing to your turn, then you are waiting too late to turn.

[Marco]

To add to what @ToddL described above, if you are pulling too long, I assume you are having a late edge change, somewhere past the white wash off the second wake. That is a result of skiing a narrow path to the ball. Try to gain more angle (it starts at the gate), and when done successfully, your edge change will atomatically happen earlier. Stay patient with the handle and you'll find yourself early and wide.

[A_B]

Agree with Marco on the real cause is likely not staying on edge behind the boat, so you edge again to get to the buoy. Most beginners have the fear of ripping through the wakes. But a ski on edge slices through them easier. Start closer to the wake and forget buoys for a while until you can pull solidly through both wakes. You will feel the speed and the turn will come natural.

 

[H2OSkiGirl]

Thank you everyone... Matt I am a 34 mph skier starting at 15 and this year I am only getting 2 or 4 at 32 off. I ran many last year, but not this year... I am on a mid fire and last year I was on a regular goode and a radar.

 

Leon I do feel like I pull to long because I won't make it to the buoy. This weekend at a tournament several people told me I was pulling too long! I am writing down your comments, thank you.

 

Todd thank you for your description and I am waiting to long, I need to try this and trust it when I practice next...

 

Marco I do think my edge change it pretty late because I will look down the line and I am still pulling half way to the buoy... I will try keeping the handle in longer as you guys are suggesting too...

 

AB I agree with Marco too. I feel I am pulling a lot and then I have to rip a turn.

 

I will try to post a video.....

 

Thanks everyone, I can't wait to get back out on the water...

[RichardDoane]

get back on the Radar IMO

[rawly]

Seperating my reach from my turn is what gave me a pre-turn.I was stuck at -28 for a long long time.After crossing the wake I would let the handle out and turn in towards the ball at the same time.Now I keep the handle in through the edge change.Until we see video this would be my guess.Good luck and keep pushing!

[ForrestGump]

Keep in mind that the longer you pull, the less space you have in front of the buoy. This is because as long as you are pulling, the ski is between you and the boat. The earlier you can arc the ski out from under you, to a point, the more space you create. So pulling long, in effect, makes you narrower because it's going to put you on a line that is closer to the buoy on the front of the arc. Thinking about this will make your head hurt, but it's very important to learn why an action your mind tells you to do has the opposite effect of what your mind wants.

[H2OSkiGirl]

Richard... I should try it again huh!?!

 

Rawly, that seems logical holding the handle in longer! I was looking at video and pictures and I am open before the bouy for quite a long time then I reach over the top to soon...

 

Shane I have never thought about it that way. I can picture this for sure! Going to figure out how to link a video on youtube...

 

[H20SkiGirl]

OK I don't know how this will turn out, but I will give it a try... This is my last practice set in 5 short videos. 15, 22, 28, 28, and 32...

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

Hm, I didn't see any pulling too long until 32, and I think that was all caused by your gate.

 

I'm going through this exact thing at 38 right now. I believe you need a higher start and you especially need more angle into the gate. Make sure ski finishes turnin before loading.

 

THEN you have to trust that you've got what you need and be less aggressive after the centerline.

 

Anytime I get the feeling that I need to pull longer, what I really needed was to get more angle sooner, and then just ride that out to the buoy.

 

Good luck and have fun!

[H2OSkiGirl]

Thanks for watching and your feedback Than! I will def get higher on the gate and try to create that much needed angle sooner! I also wrote in my book to wait to load the ski until the it finishes the turn... I do hear that alot... I appreciate your feed back!

[ForrestGump]

Good skiing! One thing that sticks out to me is that you pull in on the handle as opposed to slowly extending it and then bringing the outside hip around to meet it. When done correctly the elbow stays straight and the handle only has to come down to meet the hip as it rotates around AHEAD of the shoulders. Any time you pull in, you stop/slow that rotation of the ski and hip. In fact, you even do it as you turn in for the gate a bit. The action of freezing the handle and bringing the hip to it is where that "snap" comes from that you see from the elite skiers from the apex to when they get back on the handle.

[PBD]

What Shane said. It is really obvious at the 2,4,6 balls, You put quite a pull on the handle just before you hook up.

[Horton]

@H2OSkiGirl I have seen you ski and seen you walk down the beach (and let you play with my hair) trust me your curves are fine the way they are.

[6balls]

Love how you keep your handle, but when you should be going outbound with two hands on the handle you look at the ball and go up-course with two hands on the handle. Blow by the ball, late turn and down course at 28.

If you can edge change with two hands, but keep outbound on your turning edge instead of upcourse just for a moment, I believe your turns will take care of themselves at 28 and 32 and you will be a lot closer to the backside of the ball heading toward the wake. Easier said than done...

[A_B]

Freeze frame your preturn into 2 4 6 and you should see a straightline down the handle and though your shoulders. Meaining, counter rotate.

Try to keep your chest pointed outward toward the shore and pull your left shoulder back. This will help your width and then when you ski your hip around and up and hookup to the handle, you will be waiting on 3 5. You can do this for the one handed gate as well, watch Karina. She pushes her right hand to her left and counters before she turns in for the gates.

 

Great job! You should be seeing blue before you know it.

 

[matthewbrown]

Kim I've heard they have good coaches in Chico!

[LeonL]

Just a suggestion -- drop the -15. Not in the same game as -22 and beyond.

[Than_Bogan]

I mildly disagree with dropping 15 unless you replace it with 32/-22. At least until you start running -32 pretty regularly.

 

I'm a big believer in reinforcing with lots of completed passes.

[Marco]

@H2OSkiGirl- I did what @AB suggested and looked at some freeze frames on your 28 and 32 passes. If you freeze it at the initiation of your edge change just past the whitewash, you'll see that consistently your hands are coming up off your hip and out in front in anticipation of your release. You are losing your outbound direaction and turning down to the ball creating a narrow path and late edge change.

 

Keep both hands on the handle and handle on your hip after the edge change and you'll maintain your outbound direction until you naturally release and ski away from the handle. Do this correctly (not easy!) and you'll be early and wide.

 

Read Bruce Butterfields What The Heck Is Handle Control article for the best description of this technique.

[ral]

@H2OSkiGirl, read the handle control article. @ 28 off, from 1 to 2 you have a solid position with elbows in until the wake, and then your arms come up straight instead of keeping the elbows in, so the ski loses angle instead of keeping an outbound direction.

 

I more than mildly disagree with dropping 15 off before running 32 regularly... Totally agree with Than. 41 off is FAR more different than 32 off than 15 is from 22 or 28 off, and yet skiers like CP and Nate start @ 32.

 

Another comment, let the ski finish and get in front of you @ 2 and 4 before getting to the handle. I ended up with a metal plate in my neck for not doing it...

[H2OSkiGirl]

OMG what a great surprise to see all of these awesome tips for me!!! I appreciate it so much you guys have taken the time to watch my set and really give me some meaningful feedback:) I am writing all of these tips down in my book and I will be out on the lake tomorrow after my graveyard shift~ I am even able to see more watching the video myself and really see what I am doing wrong! Thank you everyone for your help!!!

[H2OSkiGirl]

I am just reading through these comments again right now and I want all of you to know how much I appreciate the time you took to look at my skiing and then give me real feedback.... I want to ski better and be in great form all the time and it is so frusterating when you can't get to the next bouy!!! I think that is why we love this sport because we know we can always get better!!!

[Than_Bogan]

Yeah its pretty awesome to be in a sport where it's possible to get bests in your 40s and even 50s.

 

Just ... one ... more ... buoy.

[Texas6]

I believe she is most likely in her very early twenties:)

[Dusty]

A lot of good advice here. I watched the passes several times, concentrating on the ski/water interface. As mentioned on your set up/turn-in, the line is tight. The one hand gate turn-in, might ideally emulate a 2/4 ball turn. I'd try to carry more speed in your glide, advancing on the boat, so that at turn-in you are not so 'tight-lined'. The ski would turn into more angle. I think you'd find that your weight would be further forward, and the water breaking at the front instep, establishing a better path to one ball, and allowing you to carry more speed through the course. The 'long pulling' should go away then.

[Boody]

Texas6, you just made Kim's day....

 

Great input by everyone by the way. Some stuff I will try myself.

[H2OSkiGirl]

Dusty thank you, I have struggled with my gate for many years and just what you have suggested here is what T_Whisper told me just a couple of weeks ago!!! I will be working to make this more fluid and just like you mention, more of a 2, 4 buoy:)

 

And yes Texas6 you are so kind:D

 

So I wanted to update... I took a couple of sets on the 4th and for the first time this year ran 32 OTD.... WOW :-) I had all of my notes from all of you that took the time to give me some excellent feedback! I concentrated on only two things (and tried to keep doing some of the other...) first was getting higher and moving fluid in my gates and the second was keeping my handle in longer into the bouy (my elbows touching my vest) while opening big at the bouy.... I was amazed at how this helped me with two things, outbound movement and not coming back to the handle so soon...

 

Thank you again and I can't wait to practice these things over and over... BTW on my second set I was on my way to running a 2nd 32 OTD really early when my goode bindings came off prematurely... I now have new velcro and set to get busy this weekend!!!

[RichardDoane]

velcro = bad, inserts are good

[Than_Bogan]

Awesome! I gotta get a video up and get some coaching myself!

[Marco]

@ H2OSkiGirl- Great Job! Now go attack the blue loop!

[jipster43]

Yet another thread that will take my own skiing to another level. Thanks y'all!

 

[H2OSkiGirl]

OK... I will just say one more thing:D I skied two sets today and both sets I ran a 32, (not OTD but the second one...) what the..... OMG I couldn't be more excited that all of you took the time out of your hectic schedules to give me such good advice:-) Thanks so much... I keep reading all of your tips! Thank you:D

[Than_Bogan]

The only thing more awesome than skiing well is skiing BETTER.

 

Thanks so much for reporting your success. It's fun to share in it!!

[Zman]

Bump. Reading this thread is still helpful. OK, to build on it a lil, if I may. Now, you are arriving early, feeling is let the ski cast out on a tight line. But, too soon and you are coming back in too soon. What is your thought to delay the turn, but maintain momentum?

My thought for next sets is to 'get tall' in the preturn, and that should help me delay the turn back in? Running most passes at 28 and 32, at 34.

[BRY]

@zman if you are early you want to be wide otherwise you run have to run parallel to the course and that is bad. So just keep moving out with your com and the ski, toward the beach. Don't need to change your technique, it's good if you have this problem. Off the wake ski to the beach not the ball, early edge change, hold onto the handle till the boat takes it (let the boat take it, don't give it to the boat), keep head and inside shoulder up, relax. It will just happen, a nice wide arc out. Be less aggressive but more powerful (don't go soft, be strong in movements).

It's OK to ski wider than the buoy line, just be sure you are doing so before the buoy.

[Wish]

Little late to the thread and did not really read through them all. Here is my 2 cents and what I would have said on the vids she posted. ....It all has to do with skiing on the ski more efficiently to increase speed and reduce drag. For the most part you do this once you are in the course and do it well so great job. Obviously if we exaggerate things a bit it becomes more clear and you can see what I mean. If I asked you to lean back or put all your weight on the back of the ski, the ski tip would be way up and the tail dug into the water increasing drag and slow down. The opposite would be getting more on the front of the ski, leveling it with the water and skiing on the part of the ski that supports you the most...the front of the ski where it is wider. So in turn, ski speed goes up and drag, felt as load goes down. As said, for the most part you do this well accept in one spot when the line gets short and it matters greatly. This is evident in the first 28 vs the second. Your glide for the gate set ups look good and it appears you have weight distribution favoring the front foot, a nice and tall stance over the ski and gliding with speed. Where you fall back a bit on the ski is the initial move, right, back to the gates. In the first 28 you fall back ever so slightly. The ski does not come around as quick. It is not drastic but it is there. Look at the second 28 vid where you maintain more pressure on the front foot as you turn in. More of the front of the ski stays in the water, it finished further with more speed. That pass went much much better. Loads (drag) was down and ski speed was up through the entire pass with no long pulls. Now look at the 32 in that same spot. Even further back on the ski. This all translates into that initial moment of drag, causing slower swing speed through the gates and once that happens, hang on for loads and long pulls. Concentrate on engaging the front of the ski more as you turn in. Think of the ball of your front foot feeling the pressure more right then in that initial turn in and keeping that. The cool thing is when you do this, the ski actually accelerates more efficiently to the gates, catches up to you sooner and you will be picking up the load smoother and earlier. In turn allowing the edge change to happen sooner and seeing lots of space between you and the ball just waiting on it, The speed will also allow you to stay much more connected off the second wake (elbow in) into ball one as the load there will be less because you're moving/swinging the handle with speed up to the ball......pre turn and any turn problems solved.

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

@Zman building on what @BRY said just thinking about taking that handle out with you to the buoy, moving outward and building as much width as possible until you start your reach is your primary goal. Like you said thinking about being tall is good, coming over the front of the ski will allow it to move outward under your feet. Just focus on those two things and you'll find yourself with more width into the turn and coming out of it with more speed and a tight line because you kept that connection all the way out to the buoy off the second wake. Hope this helps.

[Zman]

Thanks @BRY and @ColeGiacopuzzi ... Good comments. Will be working on the tips given for sure.

[So_I_Ski]

Lot sof great comments here. @BoneHead on the ski being between you and the boat, I found particularly insightful as I am convinced that is what has been happening on my onside pull. It ties in with something I've been looking at a lot in videos this year I believe applies @H20SkiGirl. What the pros do much more dynamically than intermediate skiers is that they swing the ski onto the new edge as they exit the second wake. As opposed to what I see in your video which is that as you focus too much on holding thru the wakes, you miss utilizing the swing momentum you built up approaching center line. Then you are forced to manufacture your edge change instead of it happening naturally which is what produces that extra time for the pre turn and standing tall but gliding on your new edge.

 

For great examples of landing on that new edge see Seth Stisher's whips and google Ivan Morros, a 34 video that someone posted awhile back when he won. Super smooth and dynamic edge changes both sides.