When to switch from long line to 15 off

[harddock]

We have managed, not necessarily mastered a full pass 21mph. running 4 to 5 and sometimes just missing 6 @ 23. My question is : Do we stay at long line until 28 or 32mph or should we be working on 15off now/ Will the transition be harder later at higher speed? We compete mostly INT and everyone seems to be running 15 off even at slow speeds. We are slowly getting into USA water ski tournaments but we need some pointers. This is 10 y/o boy free skiing everyday, practice at a course once or twice a week.

[boarditup]

Go to 15-off now. Many kids find 15-off easier than long line. In the INT, 15-off is the same as long line.

[ToddL]

IMO, long line is a great tool for providing early success and motivation to very new or very young skiers. However, skiing at long line involves different timing of effort and different approach to the turns which just does not translate to success at -15, -22, etc.

 

For this reason alone, I prefer to teach adults at -15 and encourage youth skiers to move to -15 as soon as possible.

 

The timing of effort and the timing of when to edge change, etc. are different at -15. However, at -15 the timing and effort are very similar for all speeds 21+ and into -22 at max speed. So, I guess at 21 MPH is a good time to move over to -15.

 

At -15, the skier must generate more speed during the power zone (from white water to white water, or boat spray to boat spray), holding the lean through both wakes, and initiating the turn about 1/2-way between the boat and the turn buoy. The skier has to turn before getting to the buoy and trust that the cross course speed and angle was sufficient to get the width necessary to round the buoy. That skill is not necessary and thus not encouraged when skiing long line. Thus, time spent at long line is not time spent building skills to go further up the rope. Just my $0.02.

 

FWIW, my 11yo son lost about 1 pass when first moving from LL to -15. I set that expectation, so he wasn't surprised or discouraged by it. We worked on stacked body position in the power zone and initiating the turn "before the buoy". Once he trusted these concepts, he got back up to where he was. It took him about 2 weeks. He's now raised his PB by a whole pass at -15. He's now starting to have to really trust edge-changing with out-bound speed. Before he just sort of screamed early to the buoy line, flat rode for a good while until he could crank the turn (back-side) the buoy and head across to the other side... It looked cool because he was early and sort of wide to the buoy, but he can't flat ride at 24.9 MPH and get away with that. So, next learning step is edge-changing with outbound speed. Also, we are working on letting go of the overly soft knees through the wakes, since they are getting much smaller with each new speed...

[Chef23]

I kept my son at LL until he was running into 30 mph. I moved him then when we had a three week gap between tourneys and he picked that pass back up pretty quick.

 

@harddock having seen your son ski I would leave him there for a bit until he is running into 26 or 28 mph consistently. This might put him at a little disadvantage at INT events but I found that being able to run passes offset that in the long run.

[harddock]

Mark, That's were the confusion set in. You told me the same thing @ Oakham, then two weeks later when he skis a full pass and out of novice the consensus was to move to 15 off. He feels like everyone else is doing it and it becomes the deciding factor placing in the tournament. I really need to get him some coaching, maybe after the nationals someone will have time.

 

[Chef23]

Kevin INT is a 15 off league and they value 15 off at slower speeds more than long line at higher speeds. When Matt skied INT he used to get beat by kids skiing slower speeds but I told him the rules and not to worry about it. USA Water Ski doesn't score you any higher for running 15 off and at slower speeds a lot of kids are running long line. My advice came from April Coble when Matt was younger.

[harddock]

I told him switching right before a tournament is not a smart move so we will be running LL this weekend. He watched a video of the AWSA kids his age at the puddle and wants to be part of that group.

[ToddL]

FYI - I agree that switching before a tournament is not a good idea. Wait for a gap or start immediately after a tournament.

[Chef23]

@harddock is your son Boys 1 or 2. In Boys 1 most of the kids are running long line. Even in Boys 2 if he isn't running close to max speed I would keep him at long line. In a USA WS tournament running 26 mph long line beats some running 15 off @ 24.

[harddock]

He is in B2 - Looks like our next chance @ AWSA is Dubes on the 26th

[Than_Bogan]

In danger of veering way off topic here, but: Why does INT value -15 at slower speeds? Breaking from international tournament rules can be justified if it helps people get into the sport, but I'm not seeing how that one would be helpful. It just seems like it would confuse the heck out of people! (It has me confused, but that's not very hard.)

[Than_Bogan]

The only relevant thing I have to add is: If your son *wants* to go to -15, I personally wouldn't hold him back. It's not THAT different. But I wouldn't bother him to push him toward it, even lightly, until about the criteria that @Chef23 has suggested. At this level, having fun and getting excited about the sport will eventually lead to WAY more buoys than minor details like -15 vs LL.

[Chef23]

@Than Bogan I don't know why INT does the 15 off thing but I believe internationally they don't run long line. The benefit to me of long line for kids is that they get to run more buoys which I thinks always good.

[ScarletArrow]

The approach most take in this area (NE Ohio) is to keep kids at LL until they reach their max speed or are one below.

 

Sometimes Dad's will have their kids take a 15off set (usually the 2nd) to mix things up a bit.

 

It's just my opinion, by at 10 years old, 21mph, getting 4 & 5 balls - I would stay at LL.

[Kelvin]

If you ski tournaments, one thing to consider is the competition/scoring factor. For example, this year the cutoff score for B2 was 65.6 buoys - so for a last chance qualifier, a B2 skier must run a full 6 buoys at 34mph long-line. A couple of years ago, my son was just on the cusp of qualifying, but not running a full pass at 34mph 15-off. The week before our Last Chance Qualifier tournament I put him back on long line and he successfully completed the 34mph longline pass to qualify for nationals. I'm not sure he would have done it at 15off at that point. Once he qualified, we moved him back to 15 off for most of the reasons stated above.

 

As another example, a friend had a G1 skier at nationals that skied 15off when most of her competition was skiing longline. Her final score was something like 3 buoys at the max speed 15 off. She was beaten by a competitor that skied 4 buoys longline. Those are some situations where long line makes sense, but for progressing in the course, 15off is better.

[harddock]

By INT standards he is in Jr 4th class. Under 13 and can make a full pass LL or 15off, next is 4th class any age working on a full pass 28 mph 15off. 3rd class is 30 -15off, 2nd is 32 -15 off, 1st class working on full pass 34-15off and then Jr expert13 and under working 0n-22off then expert, men 34 and under working on 15 and 22 off@ 32mph.

 

There seems to be alot of territory from jr 4th class to 3th class to cover. Long time in 4th class.

[Chef23]

@Kelvin my son faced the same issue this year and I didn't think of moving him back. He has run 5@34 3 times this year and 5.5 @34 twice including in a record. I think his average right now is 65.3 and the COA is 65.7. Fortunately he beat the COA for overall so he gets to ski all three events.

 

My son has run 34/15 at least 20 times in practice but not every time out of the boat and ran his first full 22 off pass this morning so I feel he is going to break through soon.

 

@harddock I would leave him at LL until he is running in to the 30s he will get to ski more passes and his scores will be better in USA WS events and there are more of those around than INT events.

[jwroblew]

I would leave him at LL. I'm in a similar situation, my daughter is 8 and at the begging of the year was working on 15mph @ LL and now has run 28mph at LL, two times. Until she can run it more often and or get deep down 30 mph I will leave her at LL. We have in the past to keep things fun and different run up the rope at 23 MPH just doing 1 ball starts, her personal best was 3 at 28 off too, I was impressed. We don't do it very often just enough to keep things different. I think its more important for young kids to run easier passes than to miss more difficult ones, it builds confidence. My goal for my daughter every set is for her to run 80% of her passes, if that means running a pass again or only going up by 1 mph than that's what I do.

[Wish]

So if I'm reading this correctly LL and 15 off are scored the same?? If that's the case, when a kids get to max speed, do they get points for shortening to 15 off? Or have to skip to 22 to increase points?

 

[ToddL]

@Wish I'm not an expert in this, but here is what I thought I understood from above...

 

What I understand about INT is that they award that extra 6 buoys at the completion of the opening pass. Thus two skiers start at 19 MPH, one at LL and the other at -15. Both run their opener. The -15 skier is ahead by 6 buoys over the LL skier. Thus, the LL skier would have to run 1 speed increment further to tie the -15 off line skier.

 

I think this is correct...

 

In Class C competition, we know that the rope length is irrelevant until the skier is at max speed. Once the skier runs max speed at any line length, the skier's score will automatically include that pass plus any "skipped" passes at longer ropes at max speed. Thus, if a skier is skiing at -15, under max speed (say starts at 19MPH) and scores 2 at 21 MPH, the score is the same as a skier who skied 2 at 21 MPH at any rope length. However, if that skier skis to max speed (say 30 MPH) using -22 the whole way, when he or she runs 30 at -15, the score will automatically include 30 at LL in addition to the 30 at -15. Thus, Class C only gets the extra 6 buoys upon completion of the max speed pass at -15.

[Than_Bogan]

@Wish Skiing at -15 basically counts as an opt-up when you get to the max speed. It's like you've chosen to skip MaxSpeed/LL, and the usual rules apply: If you run it, you get credit for both passes; if you don't, you get credit for LL.

[Wish]

Sorry, slow on uptake here so will get more spacific. Max speed at 30. Skier runs long line all the way up to 30. What happens then? Wouldn't you have to jump to 22 if 15 and long line are counted the same. Skiing 15 off at speed (30) would be a waist yes??

[Than_Bogan]

Oh, you're asking the opposite question! -15 and LL are only the same when NOT at your maximum speed. At max speed they are worth 6 buoys each (under AWSA; pretty sure Chef23 is right that international rules dont allow LL at all).

[Chef23]

I will add even though I am in favor of long line if the boy really wants to ski 15 off and has speeds he can run 3 full passes at I would let him. What is most important is that he is having fun. I do think it is important for kids to have at least 3 full passes they can run in a tournament. I think that @harddock's son will get more out of the tournaments running more buoys at long line.

[harddock]

Well agiainst advise and reason my boy decsided this week he was going to go 15 off. He ran it pretty consistantly making it 3 times 21mph @ Webster, and his Wed night practice in Charlton. His is getting 3-4 @ 23 mph.

He skied INT Plymouth and ran the 15 off 21 and 3 @ 23mph. So there is problably no looking back.

[Chef23]

Kevin if he is having fun leave him alone. By the end of the season he will have 3 full passes he can run.

[harddock]

Yes, I agree. Now that he is there he is looking foward to 23, and

25 for a season goal. He wants to go to a Nationals event. Maybe next year will be his. I'm not pushing, this is all him. Being able to come hear for advise does help.

[Chef23]

@harddock if he wants to ski at Nationals in Boys 2 he needs to run a full pass at 34 mph. If he gets a full pass at 34 mph 15 off that puts easily over the cut off.