What is this score?

[Horton]

[MattP]

More than a quarter but less than a half?

[jlittle]

I'll go 1/4

[Boody]

Not less than a 1/4. Would be 1/2 if she got over 1,3,5 buoy line, but hard to tell. Its close.

[Mateo_Vargas]

What was the ruling on the field? We weren't dealing with replacement refs last weekend.

[MrJones]

1/4

[jlittle]

I'm curious about that also. In real time, giving the benefit to the skier, you probably could score it 1/2 real easy.

[Horton]

From the camera angle it looks like 1/4 but am pretty sure it should have been a 1/2. No idea what the judges called.

[ForrestGump]

I'd call it 1/4 if it were realtime and I didn't have the pics to go on.

[Steven_Haines]

It's really hard to tell with the camera angle, but it looks like she broke the 1,3,5 line just before she lost the handle. In real time I probably would have scored 1/4 but it's probably 1/2

[BraceMaker]

@horton - per your own video that should not be considered a once in a lifetime 1/4... No?

[Horton]

First of all this is 38 or 39 off. So Karen could not have stayed wide of the ball line far past the ball. I would bet that in the second image she was already inside the line and the 1/2 was good.

[Horton]

Not sure this is scientific but if she was skiing parallel to the boat there would be very little spray. She is on an arc on the way back in to the wakes.

[eleeski]

Clearly she had the handle past the ball and had made it outside the ball. Not by much so it doesn't take much to break the line back in. No way would I ever score anything but 1/2 in that sequence. Maybe that's why they made me a senior slalom judge.

 

It's got to be clear she either let go before the ball for 0 or kept going out for 1/4. It is certainly not clear she did either so she should score 1/2. Some hostile judges here.

 

Eric

[RichardDoane]

that happened so fast, I'd say half

[Jody_Seal]

1/4

[Drago]

If shortline, 1/2

[Horton]

@eleeski freaks me out when i think you are right

[bmiller3536]

1/2

 

 

[klindy]

1/4 without knowing anything else. But the perspective means a lot in this case. Without the ability to see the other 1,3,5 buoys there's little to go by as to where the magical line is.

[webbdawg99]

1/2

[ToddL]

1/2. Perspective of the photographer appears to be from the opposite shore. At that angle, the 1-3-5 buoy line is less steep than the shore line behind her. In the pics, we have no context with which to overlay the buoy line, so we are all just guessing. All judges are aware of the buoy line when judging. We have that context and mentally overlay it on each buoy we observe. In the pics, we are missing this critical piece and must analyze other clues to make an educated guess. Still, I agree that the spray off the ski suggests an arc back toward the centerline and not parallel to the boat's path and not even close to further outbound. 1/4 buoys are very rare... Only when the skier is falling outbound do they really happen. Or super wide and early at novice levels... Heck, even novice skiers who get outside a buoy and hang there, will almost always drift back over the buoy line prior to the next set of boat guides. So, my score is 1/2.

[Than_Bogan]

From that evidence, it has to be 1/2 due to the benefit of doubt going to the skier. Only if you can be absolutely sure that her front foot did not cross the buoy line while she still had the handle can you call 1/4. This angle isn't nearly clear enough to be sure of that.

 

However, if we wanted to figure out what she "really" got, we'd need a better angle AND we're missing a frame. In the second frame, that handle has actually just left her hand. So it doesn't actually matter where she is in THAT frame. It's a frame or two back that would be the decider.

 

(Just read some of the above: @eleeski has it right.)

[Kelvin]

Well, lets just require LOCs to install million dollar 10,000 fps cameras on every buoy so we can get the right answer every time.

[ForrestGump]

This is why there are 3 or 5 judges.

[Than_Bogan]

@Kelvin I'm guessing you're going for humor there, but us engineers have trouble with number humor, so please forgive me:

 

34 mph is almost exactly 50 ft/sec. So at the fairly standard video rate of 60 frames per second, the skier advances 50/60 feet per frame, or 10 inches from frame to frame. (Actually less while at the buoy, where the skier's speed may be slightly below the boat speed.) I think that's plenty of resolution to make a "perfect" call, given that it's a little ambiguous exactly what constitutes having the handle anyhow.

 

To be clear, I am in no way advocating that we need perfect calls. Just follow the rules and give the benefit of the doubt to the skier and as far as I'm concerned we're good.

[Jody_Seal]

we are being asked to make a judgement based on these pictures. Real time is different. Based on picture # 2 She clearly has lost control of the handle and the ski and body appear to still be out side the buoy line at last contact with the handle As in Skiing position, 1/4 buoy.

Real time tower judge or boat judge I might have given 1/2 but then again....................

[Than_Bogan]

@jody Why do you believe she's still outside the buoy line? (That's a serious question in case not obvious.) Given the camera angle, my guess is that she is inside the buoy line, but the more important part is: Unless this were known to be a straight-down-buoy-line camera (which I don't see how it could be), I feel confident there isn't enough information here to rule out that she has re-crossed the line.

[Kelvin]

@Than_Bogan yes there was some humor, but some frustration as well. I'm in the process of getting ready for a record tournament and the amount of technology involved seems over the top for what is at stake.

 

But to your point, most consumer grade video cameras used in these tournaments are only 30 fps at most. Check out this video in slo-mo, freeze frame where the 30 fps isn't fast enough to clearly make the call.

 

[eleeski]

Jody, you are one of those hard ass Southern judges. Wrong, too. Enlarging #2 as much as my crappy phone will allow still has fingers on the handle. And there is a well developed arc visible too. That shot proves the 1/2!

 

Way too much time is spent on this. Let the skier prove the miss. On calls this close consistently give the skier the benefit. Perfect? Maybe not. But with adequate camera views here, Jody still got it wrong. Hours of extra setup, money for fancy cameras and review delays and controversy will still exist. I will make real time errors, hopefully my error scatter is random and balanced. My default is always in favor of the skier - always consistent. That's as fair as it should be and needs to be.

 

So the Seattle guy makes a one handed catch. The Green Bay guy wraps both hands around the arm and the ball. The Seattle guy then gets his second arm around the ball and they fall to the ground. Replacement refs!

 

Eric

[Jody_Seal]

Gee wiz Eric You really decide to get personal Here! You just went on the list!

 

Now go to your PC or Lap top and magnify by 500% at the handle and hand you will see it is nearly 3" away from the handle in photo #2.

 

Stand By my "Hard ASS southern call" !1/4 !

 

Eric! Funny though you will find my name as a senior judge and Driver on many world and national record forms in all three events! You?

[mwetskier]

hes right the handle is long gone by picture 2

[Horton]

@mwetskier i totally missed that. Crap! I will get a high Res image tonight

[ForrestGump]

I still stand by 1/4

[klindy]

@Than_Bogan and @scotchipman You both have used the "benefit of the doubt goes to the skier". Actually Scot said "any doubt". While I'm not advocating you take away anything from the skier I suggest being careful with the "benefit of the doubt" idea. As a sport we make a general effort not to 'take anything away' or 'penalize' a skier because of tough or ambiguous judgement calls. However you may be giving that same skier an advantage over the rest of the competitors by "erring on the positive side" or "rounding up".

 

How big of a deal could that be? Well if the competition is head to head or there's a cash prize involved it's pretty obvious. Sure, making the call EITHER way has potential to effect the outcome. But look farther than that, what if this was just a typical record tournament. A 1/4 buoy difference can change the world ranking list if the score is at or near their best score of the year or even above their average.

 

Recently I had a conversation with an elite OM skier about this exact issue. I was reminded that moving up or down one spot on the ranking list can make a difference between going to the World tourament or not qualifying. It can matter with incentives or even in future tournaments with seeding, etc. His point was make the "right" call and be fair to everyone and not just opt to give the benefit to the skier.

 

We're all human and all make mistakes but the idea is to make the best call with what's presented in front of us at the time. I'm reasonably certain if we had 5-6 camera angles, super slo-mo and the ability to zoom into "the spot" on any close call we'd be more comfortable with the call. The rules are set up to attempt to do just that with judges on opposite shores, height above the water, angles to the course, etc. Some sites/equipment are better than others. Some calls are simple no-brainers and others require making the best call with what's in front of you.

 

Again, given the photographic evidence, I'd still stick with the 1/4 buoy call. I agree Jody that it appears she lost the handle slightly before the second shot. Would that have been possible to see in real time? Not sure...we dont have 'full speed real time video' to look at here we only have selected frames which can't confirm it's a 1/2. So, while, with these pictures, I can't feel comfortable with a score of 1/2, I CAN feel comfortable with a score of 1/4 which I believe is the "right call" in this case.

[eleeski]

@Jody We've been going at it for a long time - as friends.

 

How far inside the buoy is her front foot by that second frame? Her back foot looks in. And isn't the center of the buoy marking the line. Three inches that don't show on a reasonable view won't offset that strong arc. 1/2!

 

While it's always fun to pick on Jody, my real point was that there will always be controversy regardless of the technical sophistication. I'm not sure striving for perfection in judging will make the sport better.

 

Eric

 

And my name is on several approved records too. Of course, I'm still trying to get my name on the skier's part but so far just as a judge. Although I try to avoid it, I do end up working tournaments.

[Horton]

Jody,

 

Eric means "hardass" in the nicest easy possible.

[Than_Bogan]

@Klindy I think we better continue this discussion, because you are a more educated judge than I am, and what you are saying is absolutely NOT my understanding of the rules. I believe those pros are asking for the rules to CHANGE. That might be a perfectly good idea, of course, but until then we have to call the rules as they are.

 

(I also disagree that the "best guess" ruling here is 1/4, but that's a judgement call and so far less relevant.)

 

Clearly, there is no such thing as exactly 0% doubt, because humans are always capable of screwing up. It's even possible to lose count of buoys and be off by 1 or 2 full buoys.

 

But we all have an intuitive understanding of what we mean by doubt. If you are claiming that you have no (ok "reasonable") doubt that this skier failed to get back inside the buoy line, then I disagree with your interpretation of the scene, but agree with your interpretation of the rules. If you are claiming that you do have some doubt about the score, but would call it 1/4, then I disagree with your interpretation of the rules.

 

The phrase "rounding up" is a prejudicial one, and I do not think applies here. 1/4s don't automatically become 1/2s and nor do 1/2s automatically become fulls. The point is only that if you can't be sure between two calls, then you call the better one.

[skimom]

Horton, I don't think you meant to cause so much of a stir!!! (Or maybe you did)

That call was looked at by several judges with boat camera review. At 39' her front foot passed the 1,3, 5 buoy line and was scored 1/2. That is one reason why the Badal's put so much money and effort into putting on such a high class tournament. Those DVRs are amazing and the added web cast cameras are amazing. We all want to make the best call for the skier and hopefully we can learn from these scenerios.

 

What a great event and thanks for letting me be a part of it. Richelle, Chief Judge

[Horton]

@skimom aka Richelle,

 

I had no idea that this went to review.

 

I do like the fact that threads like this make everyone think about judging.

 

Thanks for all you do. See you soon.

[Jody_Seal]

Good thing the tournament was not in the Hard Ass South!! It would have been a 1/4 buoy!

Skiing position includes having possession of the handle!

[webbdawg99]

After reading all the comments above....I think I've figured it out....3/8 is the score! But seriously, I agree with @Than_Bogan 100%. Tie goes to the runner.

[bmiller3536]

Alot of good stuff here, but I have to stick with the 1/2. I guess it is like seeing the glass half empty or half full. I look at this and say well she had the handle just before she crossed the buoy line and she lost the handle just after the buoy line, I am not exactly sure where the handle was at the precise moment she crossed the buoy line but it was too close for me to tell so I score it a half. The glass is half full

If you look at it and say well she had the handle just before she crossed the buoy line and she lost the handle just after the buoy line and since I do not know where the handle was exactly when she crossed the buoy line I will score it a 1/4. The glass is half empty

 

The fact is that there is definitely doubt as far as where exactly the skiers front foot was the exact moment she lost the handle so the score should be a 1/2

 

[Jody_Seal]

We should not be evaluating this so much! The next thing we will have to have buoy line cameras installed .

[Horton]

Lasers. Catfish with freak'n lasers on their foreheads

[Than_Bogan]

@Horton Everyone knows you can't trust a catfish. Put the lasers on trout or pike or something that knows how to handle that kinda power!

[Bruce_Butterfield]

In photo #2, she's past the buoy with the handle in hand. Assuming its 35 or shorter, she would be back inside the buoy line.

 

Clearly 1/2.

[eleeski]

I totally agree with @jody_seal 's latest post!

However, catfish with "lasers" would be interesting.

Eric

[Horton]

[Horton]