Anyone understand what Smith is doing in this image?

[Horton]

See how straight and low is left hand is? A lot of pros do this. I think it is called "Posting"

 

[A_B]

I think it also sets up the handle to where his hip will be swinging around to, instead of "pumping" the handle from a higher position. Reduces unneccessary movement. Notice he is not rotating his palm up and reaching high to the pylon, which is recommended by many teachers of the sport. This can cause people to bring the handle in high and then have to drop it to their hip.. Just what I have observed...

[Wish]

I think I like planking better. As for posting. My guess is simply a different way for hadle control to happen. There's no load there so rather (like said above) then reaching high with bent elbow he keeps it low at hip level Where it stayes the entire pass.

[Stevie Boy]

At short line lengths, surely must help with the rotation of the hips to the handles ?

Must Gaurantee not getting caught forward by the boat as well.

[PatM]

This is something that I've noticed also with him. Hoping to try to incorporate in to my skiing next year.

There's got to be a distinct reason he does it

[ForrestGump]

While he does come in with it low, if you kept going frame by frame, he brings the handle UP at the apex. Willy does something similar on his offside also.

[Horton]

@ShaneH as does Karina and TW and Taylor M and Nicole Arthor.

[disland]

It would be interesting to look frame by frame and see the movement of the handle relative to the water. As he reaches in the turn the handle will stay at the same level potentialy minimizing handle movement

[Killer]

Will Asher also incorporates this into his style...

 

http://waterskimag.com/files/2012/09/will41.jpg

[A_B]

I think it also keeps the turn on edge and slowing down. I know when I am coming into the ball too fast, on my offside, I have a terrible habit of dunking the handle in the water. I notice it is only when I perceive that I am too fast. I normally try to reach high and up with counter rotation, when fast, I throw it down sans counter rotation... I have a partially torn rotator cuff from this stupid move!

[Chef23]

I would like to see the next couple of pictures. I think the handle is down coming into the turn then comes up more to shoulder level in the turn. A friend of mine that takes lessons from Chet Raley was working on the same thing.

[A_B]

Google Nate Smith video and there are tons out there on Youtube...

[ForrestGump]

The question with Nate is............ Does he intentionally do it, or is it something that just happens.

[6balls]

I believe you can catch Andy looking like that as well, and as noted above the movement is almost hand up and slip under at the apex. I've toyed with it some but couldn't get past feeling awkward.

[BG1]

This keeps there COM lower for better balance and keeps the line tight. Also, the forward component weights the tip.

[Killer]

I think its a byproduct of 2 things: A. keeping your arm straight and B. keeping the handle in close to your center of mass.

 

you dont want to pull in and you want the rope to act as an extension of your belly button. This positioning of the handle allows the ski to complete its arc and maintain a tight line.

[Skoot1123]

Here is what I think is going on: he is holding the handle low to keep his connection with the boat. If he were to reach and cast his ski out at this point he would end up skiing inside the turn buoy. This action may be employed when they feel they are coming into the ball a little hot.

 

Line management at its best and calmness at the buoy line.

[Wish]

[Wish]

I'm thinking lower center of gravity, tip pressure and handle control (in keeping it close but ther is 0 load) as mentioned above is pretty much it. That really shows in the video.

[skibug]

I agree with @Killer and @Skoot1123. I think this is intentional; but, a result of good handle control and wanting to stay connected to the boat as long as possible. Unfortunately, while it seems rather easy to explain; it is more difficult to execute with any consistency (for me).

[skibug]

Does this fly in the face of the thought to have a "slow reach" or "feeding the handle out slowly". When I think of a "slow reach" I think about feeding the rope out slowly from a bent arm position to a straight arm for good extension. Maybe it is more of a straight arm movement from low to high? Maybe some one can comment or explain it better?

[Chef23]

From watching the video it looks like the handle is low coming into the ball then comes up to about shoulder height in the turn. The other thing I think is interesting is that at 41 off there is no early edge change. For the most part Nate is pulling through the second wake at this line length.

[Wish]

Guess it works at 34

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[6balls]

@chef23, I think of edge change as initiation of edge change which is beginning to rise up off the deepest part of the lean rather than when the ski is at the mid point or has transitioned to turning edge. The process of initiation does come early at short line, though one continues on pulling edge as you describe for a period longer. Not sure if that works in anyone elses head, but helps me in terms of where I should begin transition.

[Horton]

Ok so I posted this because I think I understand but am not really sure.

 

Keeping the handle down and arm straight from the edge change out seems to :

 

Slow the separation of the handle from your center of mass => better tension and further out on the arc

Assist in keeping your spine more vertical

Lastly and most confusing it seems to move the skiers mass forward

 

[ToddL]

I think it was just a "I look like a bad a$$ when I do this, so I'm gonna do it" pose. Then, everyone said that so-in-so looks like a bad a$$ when they do that, and they started doing it, too.

[ToddL]

Actually, I agree that it appears to serve to keep the connection with the boat and center of mass.

[Wish]

I see it differently. I think Nate is 100% disconcerted from the boat (free) in the still shot (and video). The only resistance on the rope is wind. And it stays that way till his boots are under the rope at the finish of the turn. I think its low (controlled to be there) simply as a balance technique at super shortline. There is no line tension to push him any wider once his inside hand comes off the handle. He is 100% connected and perhaps better then most when both hands are on the line which frees him of the boat when he lets go.

[ski6jones]

From the video I don't see a tight line at this point (original pic) in the pass. The rope bows aft (toward the start gates) after the edge change and fore (down course of a line between skier and pylon) when he turns.

 

Honestly the line bowing aft looks like the effect of wind resistance on a slightly slack rope, and bowing fore looks like the result of deceleration of the handle on a slightly slack rope, the handle slows down and the ropes momentum causes it to bow forward.

 

I'm not saying the line has a lot of slack, because it doesn't, but it's not under tension when it's bowing like that.

[gregy]

I started doing this early this past summer with some success for no other reason than I saw Nate and Asher doing it on videos. It happens pretty quick for me so I don't feel like I'm holding the handle down like Nate's picture appears. It helped me establish a rhythm with the handle and turn that I could repeat were I push the handle down and them extend.

 

Not sure of the purpose. Lowering COM? Lowering Pull from the Boat on the Body. Allows room to cast the ski out around the bouy? Maybe all of the above or none?

 

As far as tension in the line. Seems to me and I me be wrong on this, but Nate seems to take just the right arc where he doesn't get much tension on the handle and at the seem time doesn't get excess slack.

 

 

[Dirt]

IMO you want to stay connected to the boat as stated above. I would not recommend trying to emulate Nate. For most of us mere mortals, it won't work. He does a bunch of other things that allow him to do this.

I believe learning to get perfect body position and mechanics and timing would help much more.

I don't believe it will help me to not let my ski turn all the way, hook up too hard and too early, ski straight at the next buoy (almost forgot...with my hips trailing) and then stick the handle down toward the water. I will still look like crap but the handle will be down like Nate.

This is not in response to any particular comment. I have just watched this same type of thing trend through the forum many times. Reach high not low, light on the line, etc...

[Texas6]

I agree with @Wish on this one. Lower center of gravity, tip pressure, and handle control. Nate gets ridiculous angle early and as a result of this and a bit of a breeze, he is simply managing the line. A bit more tape on that picture would have shown a raise in the handle by which his hips and center of mass surely would follow. The dude has a real natural understanding of rope mgmt

[Wish]

@Texas6 thanks. You can have one of my stars. Hmmm? now how do I move that stupid little thing......

[6balls]

@dirt I have such a tendency to bury my inside shoulder and overturn that it's very hard for me to run into a buoy with handle low w/out making it worse...I agree w/you. I see what he's doing, I may even understand why it works for him...but geez I'm not that good. Lots of other technical stuff I need to correct.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

What it looks like to me is that he has held his connection out to the buoy line and is trying to maintain speed - he's standing almost straight up instead of over on a hard edge. Keeping the handle low is a way to keep the reach slow and controlled. You can also see in the video that he pushes the handle forward as he approaches the buoy, so its easier to ski under the handle and keep the shoulders countered. If he was hard over on his turning edge and releasing up high, like most of us, he would be loosing most of his speed and have to accelerate hard out of the turn.

[MrJones]

One more thought is that the low reach moves your body relatively "up and forward" on the ski keeping the ski behind you longer through the turn. At super short line the hook up needs to be delayed to be able to carry momentum/angle off the second wake to the next buoy. For me the problem is doing this without some of the issues Dirt mentions.

[Skoot1123]

@OB - Well said - Stick with the basics. It is a concept that has helped me tremendously! Outside of skiing as well. As an engineer the basics form the foundation - everything is driven FROM that foundation, and if the foundation is strong, you'll go places.

Now to just work on that skiing foundation. . . . . where are you spring??

[ForrestGump]

I heard Nate talk about how he likes to be driven. He talked about wanting to be free of the boat and not on a tight line at the buoy so he's free to rotate under the rope and get the ski fully turned before being picked up at shortline. Not something that the vast majority of us would be comfortable with.

[Razorskier1]

In watching video it always looks like Nate releases the handle low from his hip, then as he rotates through the finish of the turn he lifts it just slightly to create clearance for his ski and hips to come all the way through. This is just one piece of his overall ski style, and snapshot skiing isn't generally helpful. Every still picture I see of skiing it puts a position in my head that my mind translates into a position to be in (for some period of time). In skiing shortline, you are only in a given position for a moment in time. You can't analyze one piece without looking at the whole. It's like trying to fix a problem habit without looking at what you did before it. For example, say your problem is that you keep overturning your onside turn. The right question is, "what did I do coming into the turn that causes me to overturn?". I think you can learn a lot from watching video of good skiers. I'm not convinced that stills will help at all.

[MAD11]

I'm going out and ski like that today! Also, gonna drop 30 more pounds and grow 5 inches. let you know how it goes.

[MAD11]

Actually, just realized I am not capable of even trying this. I have no stars and could get hurt just attempting it. Thanks @horton for busting my bubble. Also, you swearing to Buda in the other post makes me take this personally since that is the town we live in. @shaneh will never let me live this down.

[DanE]

@OB--..."where are you?" "I can't feel you after your edge change" "if I don't know where you are, I can't drive my best".

So true, I don´t get to drive top skiers, only skiers into 35 off with a rare shot @ 38 except for one time many years ago I drove a practice set for a National team skier practicing for the worlds.

First thing that I felt was that he never really broke free from the boat, I reffered to the experiance as pulling a piece of lead.

Was actually easier to drive as I didn´t have to correct the path for slack hits or anything.

[ForrestGump]

@MAD11 This whole stars thing baffles me a bit. Maybe the fact that you have none signifies that you should take up wakeboarding.

[Jordan]

I wonder if entering the turn with a low rope encourages a finish where the body is lower so that there is a lower lean away from the boat almost immediately after the turn is completed?

 

I notice in the videos of Nate that he establishes a huge amount of lean away from the boat and he does it exceptionally early.

[klindy]

Why not just ask him why he does that rather than speculate.

[Horton]

He only says 7 words per month so this is faster

[ForrestGump]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

Water just shot out of my nose and onto my paperwork. Thanks, OB!

[mwetskier]

obvious no stars just means your not a member of the inner click

[gregy]

@jordan that video is at 41off. He usually doesn't lean that much in his pull at other line lengths. Even up to 38off his leans are less than others.

 

As someone stated above he doesn't lean that much in the preturn. I'd say keeping the handle low would lessen the leverage the boat has on the body to keep from being pulled over (into more lean). But as @shaneh says Nate like to be free of the line at the turn and there is some slack in the line in the picture. So that theory does not hold up unless you consider that this is a shap shot and that he releases as he pushes the handle down. So that that disconnect is lowered with less leverage from the boat to be pulled over.

 

I'm not trying to argue what's right or wrong as for as staying connected with the boat etc or what best to work on. Just trying to answer the question @horton asked.

 

Saw that Neilly Ross video last night she pushes her handle down and then forward. Looked at one of Drew's videos he does the same. Must be something to it he's teaching his daughter that technique.

 

 

 

 

[ForrestGump]

" Even up to 38off his leans are less than others."

 

This is true. What he does do in place of that is to use his knees and ankles better than anyone else skiing today. He lets the ski fully turn(Aided by that slightly loose line) and waits for his bindings to pass under the rope before the boat picks him up. Then he points his knees where he wants to go and drives his mass across with his knees and ankles.