Baller Dacon62 Posted January 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2013 These guys at Pavati Marine in Oregon have made the first all aluminum wake board boat. While this is obviously not a slalom boat if this wake boat succeeds maybe they will consider a DD? It looks like the attention to detail and workmanship is there. http://www.pavati.com/wakeboarding_boat/ Was also intrigued by the dimpled bottom on a model of their drift boat. Could this be used on a slalom boat bottom to reduce drag or introduce air as some other threads have mentioned to soften the wake ? R & D would likely be quicker with an aluminum boat as well as its easier to add/take away experimental items to or under the hull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller rodltg2 Posted January 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2013 There has been a lot of chatter on this boat on the wake board forums. Obviously they want weight, and the alum boat is lighter. So lots of skeptics. Interesting to see if it works. It's on the expensive side. So cost cannot be an issue for the consumer. I don't know much about boat building or really about anything in fact , but hull consistency could be an issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Dacon62 Posted January 9, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted January 9, 2013 They claim it is lighter but I have not seen any specs to date. I wounder how much lighter a 20' DD would be in Aluminum? If the wake boat is 500-1,000 pounds lighter (don't know just guessing) they claim 4000 pounds of ballast is available. That will more than make up for the lighter hull. Then when you don't need the ballast power out of the hole, reduced fuel consumption etc. could be realized. @rodltg2 - I agree that hull consistency may be a challenge but even boats coming out of molds vary as commented on in numerous threads on this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller rodltg2 Posted January 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2013 Would an alum hull produce a harder wake ? Weight keeps a boat on track. So if it was too light would it wander ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Dacon62 Posted January 9, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted January 9, 2013 Don't know for sure if the material comp of a boat would alter the wake hardness my guess would be no. While weight does help a boat from being pulled around by a skier more weight than absolutely necessary will negatively affect the wakes. It's a balancing act. Generally everyone is tying to reduce the weight of a DD while still maintaining as many creature comforts as possible. Having a boat thats too light is easy to fix, just add ballast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allycat Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 yep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allycat Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 great idear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller auskier Posted January 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2013 mate, posting under the influence much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted January 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2013 That's just what folks sound like in Indiana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Craig Posted January 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2013 http://www.pavati.com/wakeboarding_boat/models/ 2800 lbs for a 24' wakeboard boat. Considering a 24' x-star has a list weight of 5400lbs, and a PS 197 is 3300lbs, I would say that is real light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted January 9, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted January 9, 2013 Not a wake boarder but I'm impressed. Like the platform chair. Some nice looking riders in the vid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted January 9, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted January 9, 2013 I want to see the guy doing the talking "ride" as he puts it. He also says he rides "bike" . Wow. Interesting that the developer says he can change the hull shape specs "on the fly". Now that may be a way to figure out hull design for slalom. No need to keep building expensive space consuming mold after mold to get it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted January 9, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted January 9, 2013 So you could build a ski boat 30% lighter and use ballast to waight for appropriate tracking. Fill it up with all those heavy luxury items that are in current boats. It would still be light efficient for cruising as well as great wakes for long line slow speed skiers. Then add ballast for tracking short liners and compensating for passenger waight distribution. Wouldnt that be the perfect slolam tug? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller swc5150 Posted January 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2013 I'm curious what the price differential is compared to a glass boat? I would assume it would be much less, as aluminum isn't tied to the price of petroleum like fiberglass? I really like the idea of a low towing weight. I wouldn't mind getting into a fuel efficient crossover, versus my Tahoe. It would also be easy to maneuver by hand in the garage. On the surface, it does appear there could be some serious upsides to this. Since they do custom work, we could take the 200 to their shop to make a copy;)...kidding of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted January 9, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted January 9, 2013 Oddly enough I don't believe very many of the huls are patented. I know Gekko did theirs. So can you make a copy??? Don't know. Apple didn't seem to be able to stop all the iPad wanna be's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller gregy Posted January 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2013 I think hull design has a lot to with tracking. Some of the designs of the past had great wake but didn't track that well and weighed similar to present day boats. A heavier boat going to track better, but a well designed lighter boat should too. Bonus would be that you could place weight optimally for best characteristic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller eleeski Posted January 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2013 Disclaimer: I was a plastics engineer. My job was to replace aluminum parts with plastic. I did a lot of that successfully. I am quite biased. While I fly an aluminum airplane, the composite planes blow by me in the air. I don't ride an aluminum bike (too rich for my skills - and if I win the lottery I will get a composite bike). My waterskis are composite. I don't buy his claim that aluminum is intrinsically lighter. And certainly not less expensive. This is an interesting project. There is a huge amount of weight reduction possible in boats. There is a lot of tweaking that can optimize the wake for your specific taste. He seems capable of doing some interesting engineering. Cool. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwroblew Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 I would think riding in an aluminium boat would not be very comfortable, the damping characteristics of aluminium is not very good. Try riding an aluminium road bike vs a carbon fiber bike, the ride difference is amazing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Waternut Posted January 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2013 I'm with @eleeski. As an aerospace engineer, I want to repair metal because it's easy but the benefits of composites are massive from both weight and strength. Going the other way seems stupid IMO. Airplane manufacturers aren't going to composites because they are weaker, heavier, and burn more fuel. Are we going to start making competitive wooden ski's again? That said, I'm extremely skeptic of the information on that site. First off, they say aluminum is 10x stronger than fiberglass which is just a straight lie. If they're welding the hull, it has to be 6061 aluminum which is one of the weakest aluminums out there. Plus it's been welded and way to big to be heat treated again so it can only be annealed condition which makes it about as strong and stiff as a baseball card. Also, I don't see anywhere that it's actually a certified boat meaning it doesn't necessarily have to comply with all the weight gaining things that standard boats have to. Their specs for the boat say it's 2800lb boat hull weight. To me that means, the hull without anything in it is 2800lbs. Then you add thousands of pounds for the engine, transmission, wiring, seats, sound system, electric rope retriver, carpet, fuel tank, coolers, and all the other stuff they brag about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller swc5150 Posted January 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2013 As a musician and marketing manager, I don't know jack about materials. What you guys say makes a lot of sense. I got caught up in Pavati's puffery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted January 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2013 Its not all puffery. Aluminum can make a great boat -and and nit just jon boats and pontoons. Making boats likey they are is no picnic. Most mass produced boats the metal is punch and folded and assembled then riveted or welded. These things seem to be cnc cut custom panels all welded and very nice. What eleeski is saying is thay aluminium does not automatically mean a better material for a boat. Consider the metal is one thickness per panel so if you need a strong panel its all strong. Composite you just add reinforment. With your fiberglass boat new molds cost a pretty penny, but the lamination is cost and time effective. With aluminum no mold but each boat is custom from aluminum plate. A smaller purpose built dd version would be neat, but only if you just wanted a different boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Waternut Posted January 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2013 I remember when people started talking about how Mastercraft had two molds for their prostars and one mold produced great boats and the other wasn't as nice. If you got rid of the mold completely and just used shop aids like angle gauges....YIKES! For the record, plenty of jon boats use 0.100" thick aluminum and they are wobbley at best for a 100lb hull powered by a 10hp motor. These guys want to use a 525hp supercharged engine and add 4000lbs of ballast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MattP Posted January 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2013 Don't bash it until you try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Dacon62 Posted January 9, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted January 9, 2013 Anyone live near Portland that can head to the boat show starting today to report back? I think everyone would agree that an all carbon fiber boat would be the ultimate. But the cost, ouch! Anyone venture a guess? Probably way out of reach were Aluminum would likely be similar in cost to current fiberglass offerings. It sounds like Pavati has CAD and CNC available so they should be able to replicate each boat with minimal variation. They are definetly not afraid to try something new. Gotta give them credit and respect for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Craig Posted January 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2013 All the arguments for composites are comparing aluminum to carbon fiber. The comparison is fiberglass vs. aluminum. Regardless of if the information posted on the companies website is true or not it is an interesting idea. The idea is to make a lighter boat, add weight when you need it, remove it when you don't. I, for one, would certainly like to ride around in one. From a business perspective, it seems like a hard sell. A fabricator/welder is going to get paid a heck of a lot more than the guys making $8/hr slapping fiberglass in molds at MC/CC/Malibu. Considering these boats are already basically hand-made I would think the labor would be a big concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ The_MS Posted January 9, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted January 9, 2013 Would a heavy inboard engine frame up better on glass? I would think glass would not have as much flex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted January 9, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 9, 2013 The engine is really on the stringers more than the outer hull. I would assume the aluminum boat has some variety of stringer system to support whatever drivetrain. Fiberglass boats are build from the outside in, mold, gelcoat, glass, reinforcements, stringers. Add the floor boards,Then the top deck is done the same way and flipped onto the bottom hull, sealed and rubrail added, trim applied. Aluminum boats are built more like a wood boat, you can do the stringers and the frame, and then add the hull plates. In regards to price - if you look at the about section, my read on this is that the son of a large aluminum fabricator decided to build boats - http://www.800toolbox.com/ When you're doing production welding the costs come down you just need to keep the wire burning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ The_MS Posted January 9, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted January 9, 2013 If I have to spend a day fishing on Lake of the Woods, I want to spend it in a glass boat. You get beat up in the big waves with an aluminum boat. I guess I would have to try one to see if it tracks and skis as well as a glass boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller tfriess Posted January 10, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 10, 2013 Wait they showed a boat in the 1st video that @wish posted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jedgell Posted January 10, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 10, 2013 I'm planning on going to the Portland boat show this weekend. I'll check it out and report back. Interesting concept, wonder how the NVH compares to a glass boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller eleeski Posted January 10, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 10, 2013 My first ski that I built was all aluminum. Very light and skied quite well. But it broke... So I switched to glass. Similar weights but I was able to spot reinforce the glass for more strength. Glass composite was advertised as 12 times stronger than steel by weight. Aluminum is 1/3 the density of steel. Assuming the same strength as steel (it can't be stronger?), glass should be 4X stronger by weight. Chopper gun glass doesn't get the optimal properties. Roving is a bit better but still not great. It takes expensive pressure or infusion systems to get the best properties from a glass layup. Carbon is expensive enough that only a high performance layup will be used. Aluminum in a boat could be effectively used to make a very light strong boat. Maybe glass could be a bit lighter but the weight reduction engineering has barely been explored in glass boats. Aluminum is costly enough that weight reduction equals lower costs. The engineering is under more pressure to happen with aluminum. Regarding the ride, aluminum dingys are often lighter than a similar glass dingy. A light dingy will bounce more - regardless of the material selection. Besides, it's how the boat skis that really matters. Hopefully my comments are not taken as bashing. I think this boat and process has lots of potential. I'm quite intrigued. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MattP Posted January 10, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 10, 2013 @jedgell talk go them about a 3 event boat and eport back. Point them to this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Dacon62 Posted January 10, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted January 10, 2013 @MattP Got the second part covered. Emailed them the link yesterday. Thanks @jedgell for offering to get us the downlow at the boat show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Dacon62 Posted January 10, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted January 10, 2013 Looks like some Aussie's have already done one. Some interesting stuff...prop tunnel, backwards chines? Followed some of the posters other YouTube vid's to get a good idea of the wake and found a few but mostly at slower (Wakeboard) speeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ejj Posted January 11, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 11, 2013 I grew up skiing behind an aluminum fishing boat with a 150 HP two-stroke outboard. The hole-shot was awesome. The wake was small. No doubt is was not as shaped as a true ski boat, but it was better than any I/O boat I have ever been behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted January 11, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted January 11, 2013 HOLLY FABRICATION BATMAN!!!! Wow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Dacon62 Posted January 12, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted January 12, 2013 The mid engine aluminum boat in the YouTube vid above is a great example of what can be accomplished with the judicious application of time, skill, vision and cash. Props to the gentlemen who brought this project to life. If you watch the posters other videos, that film the wake, it appears that this boat built to be a wake board boat, would likely make a better slalom boat...Hmmmm. Some manufacturers produce pretty decent looking (although jet boats not direct drives) aluminum rides. http://www.edgemarine.com/VelocityLS.htm Just shows that it's possible to make a good looking aluminum boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogboy Posted January 12, 2013 Share Posted January 12, 2013 Great skills and passion on the aluminum boat. I wonder how a smaller, lighter, more slalom specific hull would work with the 4.3, or even the 3.0 engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted January 12, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted January 12, 2013 @Dacon62. Went through their photo gallery. Some of the best paint jobs I've ever seen. Actually like that they leave a little raw unpainted aluminum here and there. They really are not that far away from pulling off a potential 3 event boat in the way of materials style veriety and the idea of towable water use. Making it into an inboard and making it work may be a whole other matter. Anyone know the costs of these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Obermeier Posted January 12, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 12, 2013 I've often wondered why an aluminum slalom boat with a V-6 engine couldn't be made to work. Might not be for everyone but might be a nitch for it depending on price point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GAJ0004 Posted January 12, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 12, 2013 It is possible that it may lower the cost of a boat. It depends on if aluminum is cheaper than petroleum products. There is definitely potential there. The holeshot would be incredible on a 19 foot boat. If you used the powerhead from an outboard instead of a converted car engine you could improve the power to weight ratio. I lighter boat may need more tracking fins. It would take some experimentation to get a viable product. The downside is you would have to incorporate extra sound and vibration dampening materials that are also buoyant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Waternut Posted January 13, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 13, 2013 I know there are lots of people who have built aluminum boats and as I said before, almost none of them have adhered to the regulations bound by production hulls. The regulations aren't that strict but it's still like someone building a track car in their garage without air bags, crumple zones, etc and bragging about how light it is compared to a production car. The biggest hiccup with any kind of production aluminum hull is manufacturing. Handcrafted is always more expensive. Forgetting all the programming, jigs, setup time, etc., every single piece has to be cut, bent, rolled, ground down, cleaned up, and welded by hand. Cutting can be eliminated by a CNC machine but someone still has to load up all the sheets on the cutter and watch it carefully the whole time. That's a lot of highly skilled people and a lot of their time. A production fiberglass hull typically has two molds; a top and bottom. The mold is rolled onto it's side and a regular guy off the street can shoot the gel coat into the mold. The mold moves down the line and your next regular guy off the street is equipped with a chop gun that sprays resin and chopped fibers into the mold. If it's the bottom deck, you add your prebuilt stringers and spray some more resin and fibers. Finally, the last guy shoots more gel coat and it's done. That's a minimal crew of unskilled laborers who can be training in a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jedgell Posted January 13, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 13, 2013 Pavati didn't have their wakeboard boat at the Portland boat show. They do make the nicest driftboats I've ever seen, by far. If the quality and attention to detail is the same on the wakeboard boat as their driftboats it's got to be nice. Their booth was busy and the guys from the videos weren't there, so I didnt get a chance to talk to them. To be expected there wasnt much in the way of ski boats. There was one, a Malibu with tower. Cool to see the new Strada and Lime A3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Dacon62 Posted January 13, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted January 13, 2013 @jfw432 - Hmmm...seem to recall that the fiberglass boat manufacturers claim to have 'highly skilled craftsmen'. LOL. Seriously though, I get the point. Thanks @jedgell for reporting back. Sounds like it was more of a fishing, river running type of show. To bad you were not able to talk to one of the rep's. I like the way @GAJ0004 thinks about smaller, more compact, power options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Dacon62 Posted January 14, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted January 14, 2013 Oops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Dacon62 Posted January 22, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted January 22, 2013 Very nicely done. Maybe replace the windshield with a more tournament version? Although I really like the look of the one on the boat. Other than that the lines are nice and it has a killer paint job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allycat Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 that boat looks great love the screen and tower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ed_Obermeier Posted January 22, 2013 Baller Share Posted January 22, 2013 MSRP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCskiFreak Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Aluminum can be a very good boat building material, if you want to see it done right though check out metalsharkboats.com. Having a successful hull that will take abuse when constructed of aluminum is highly dependent on how the structure of the boat is designed. I don't know what Pavati's is like but I have been pretty skeptic of this design since it came to light 3+ years ago, and to date the boat in the video is the only one that they have built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Dacon62 Posted January 24, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted January 24, 2013 Got a response from Edge Marine about cost. MSRP depends on options and bottom design along with motor selection. We sell these boats between $55,000 - $80,000. Lots of variables on price. Let’s just say we sell this model quite often. The boat has optional rockhopper bottom that usually sells to the Canadian market. Thank you Edge Marine Rueben Weickum 541.679.9563 http://www.edgemarine.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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