If the Ballers were to design a boat

[Chef23]

There is a 2011 Response LX on SIA with ZO and a few other options. With 140 hours on it for $36K right now. A 2011 LXI is in there for $42k.

[E_T]

@eficalibrator i would like to see a 4 banger do the set up at the lake i ski at. I think we are close to the shortest run in a 200 can handle without a prop change. If you are worried about fuel consumption buy a 4 banger for your daily driver and put the extra fuel $$ into your boat. How about you put one in your boat first and tell me how it works out.

[MattP]

@E_T you can ski?

[E_T]

@MattP , contrary to popular belief yes

[jipster43]

Homemade biodiesel emits a delicious exhaust at less than $1 per gallon and the reviews I've read rate the diesel engine at the top of the marine engine performance pile.

[GAJ0004]

If I could have a custom Ski Nautique built for me I would have the 1994-1996 deck, dash, and interior with the 1997 hull. I would have boat equipped with the PCM Excalibur, Zero Off, and a GPS Based Speedometer that reads like an analog speedometer for manual driving for barefooting. Silver Cloud hull with red and blue stripes..

[BraceMaker]

@jipster43 - remember "marine engine performance" is different than ski boat performance.

 

For one, many marine applications would rate things like:

 

Fuel Consumption Rate

Fuel combustability/safety issues

Fuel stability in storage

Hours between tear downs

 

No question diesels: use less fuel in most running applications, do not have risk of fire/combustion of bilge gases, do not have to worry about "ethanol", run many hours with low maintainance/highly reliable.

 

Great when you need an engine in a tug:

 

BUT: for your ski boat you need different parameters,

Get the skier up, and the boat to speed well before the entry gates on short set ups, be refuelable with what you buy at your local gas station with your red cans. Be nearly as inexpensive as a Small block V8. Be compatible with current transmission and propellor choices, be reliable when often started/stopped.

 

I think diesel is the way to go with ski boats for now, and agree biodiesel can cut the costs down nicely.

 

I think the VW plant is an excellent option, and commend MC for their effort, but the Price point will not pay off at this point in time, most people even ski schools running 8 engine hours a day on their boat, simply do not burn enough fuel to pay off the upgrade costs of a current diesel engine.

 

If however you were buying a yacht - hoorah. Volvo's got a neat diesel as well.

[jipster43]

@BraceMaker I should have been more specific. The MC 197 equipped with the diesel scored better than all the other MC power

[jipster43]

Plants available at the time. I agree that the initial cost is a hard pill to swallow.

[Dacon62]

Diesel stinks! And it doesn't wiped off well because of its oily composition.

You are going to get it on your hands, shorts, etc. when....

Fueling with a jug,

Wiping spilled fuel up etc.

Then you spread the filth to your seats, steering wheel, etc. Yuck.

I won't even buy a diesel P/U again because of that.

I'm sticking with gasoline thank you.

 

[BraceMaker]

@dacon62 - it also is easier to purchase in bulk, and you might qualify for dyed ag diesel, as you will never put it in your car/truck.

 

I've always thought the fuel filler should be changed:

 

There should be a flip top with a Notch shape that supports the can when open so you can pour with out holding the weight of the fuel.

 

The area under the flip top would be a funnel with a regular gas cap in the middle (no deck key).

 

The lid would "seal" enough to keep water out of the area, if any water did get in you wipe that up first. Then open the gas cap, and with out a funnel or the tube you go ahead and pour away.

[gsm_peter]

A)

With EU gas price of 9-10 USD per gallon I really would prefer low gas consumption.

Low wight is hence preferred.

B)

Also bugler alarm with GPS capabilities.

C)

Some sort of system to share gas costs more exact per driver.

In our club each member has a separate tank but if we would go Diesel that would not work.

It is always a bit of dripping and smelling changing tanks 20 times per day (environmental also)

Type a Pin code that you enter before each set and then the boat reports each persons consumption.

 

[Skoot1123]

@gsm_peter - those are some excellent ideas for those that need it. (you and probably some other places) If there was a docking station for an iPhone or Android - an app could be designed to have that type of information readily available. Just download (or e-mail) the results at the end of each week, month, etc. HMMMMM - @mattp that sounds right up your alley!!

[MattP]

@skoot1123 yeah, ill add it to the list. I have enough work to keep me busy full time. If only there was money in it....

@gsm_peter if you really really want it. Contact me.

[Greg Banish]

This isn't 1989 anymore, we have plenty of boosted 4cyl engines that now make good power and torque. Matching the torque curve of an old school chevy 350 small block isn't exactly difficult with a modern 2.4L engine, variable cams, an Eaton TVS supercharger, and an unlimited supply of cold lake water for intercooling. If you look at all the other crazy things people do to boats just to get 100# out of them, yet they still leave that iron V8 block and (two) heads in there. This is low hanging fruit, IMO if one wants to reduce mass, water displacement, wake size, and ultimately fuel consumption.

 

As an added bonus, these engines are typically good for almost 7,000rpm on the top end vs ~5000rpm for many of the 350's. That alone means we have room for a prop or trans ratio change that can further aid holeshots without losing the ability to tow a barefooter.

 

And while we're at it, who wouldn't like having a smaller doghouse in the middle of the boat?

 

I have actually already floated the idea with my local slalom coach/guru. If someone on here is actually interested in taking this one step further, by all means contact and we can talk offline. I live outside of Detroit and work in the auto industry as a powertain control engineer. This stuff is actually not as far out there as some would think. It would be nice to apply what we have learned in another industry to our passion for buoy chasing.

[E_T]

@Eficalibrator 4 bangers are blasphemous. Now supercharges .... Put that on a V-8 and you have something real nice

[Steven_Haines]

@eficalibrator, what do u think about those cv transmissions? I have one in my hybrid camry, it works really well for that! Would it be too wimpy w ponies behind it?

[BraceMaker]

Steven I keep saying transmission! But i think thats where you set up so tge engine spools up to its torque curve and you build on transmission ratio to the speed you want while letting the engine run constantish rpm down the lake.

 

Then you could run efficiently like a generator.

[Wish]

had to see what a flat6 boxer was and how a motor could fit under the floor. I get it now......

.

[Wish]

Exhaust seems to be the tallest part. Can that be routed different to flatten it even more? Appox how tall is that without exhaust? Can it actually fit under the floor?

[Skoot1123]

@wish - I think that is actually the air intake on top of the engine. (though I am up for correction if needed)

[gregy]

I read an article about AM General's replacement for the Hummer had a 3.2L diesel inline 6 that had 300 Hp. Supposed to be light weight and efficient. Looked like it had dual turbos.

 

I still like a V8 though. Maybe a 5.3L gm aluminum block.

[gregy]

Subaru wrx sti flat opposed 4 banger, 2.2L I think. The can easily put out 350hp. I believe the make a 6 cyl. Version as well. I've seen one off these adapted to a gm auto transmission.

[swc5150]

I week ago, I would've scoffed at the 4 cylinder thought through my own ignorance. However, my wife's car is at the dealership for routine service, and they gave us a new X3 for the week (BMW's smaller SUV). (a week because our dealer is 1 1/2 hours away btw) This SUV has a twin turbo 4, and absolutely rips, and will tow 3,500 lbs. It's also rated at 28mpg, but I'm seeing the low 30's. I can now definitely see how a 4 banger may work in a boat.

[Steven_Haines]

@Bracemaker,

You talk about a tranny that spools up and keeps you in the perfect torque/rpm range? That's exactly what the cv tranny does! They're pretty amazing! It doesn't matter what speed your going, you mash on the throttle and you have instantaneous seamless response!

[BraceMaker]

Exactly - but why mash the throttle?

For waterskiing we know the speed we want. Say you rethink the throttle, it is no longer a throttle it is an engage/disengage lever.

Consider, when using speed control what is the use of the throttle? You use it to pull the skier up and engage the speed control, after which point the speed control manages the engine.

If however you rethink what the speed control is doing, and the engine management software instead concerns itself with fuel consumption and power output, and the engine management attempts to have the minimum required power while using the least fuel possible (highest efficiency)

Then you free up the speed control to vary your output ratio:

 

We're talking exactly one thing: Helicopters. Helicopters usually manage their lift by maintaining relatively fixed RPM on the rotors, and they very the angle (cyclic). They don't change engine RPM greatly, of course it varies some, but they keep the engine spooled up, they vary the lift by varying pitch, then they add/reduce throttle to keep the engine RPM in a small range.

 

They could easily use a fixed rotor blade angle and change engine RPM, but that is enefficient, and would be difficult to fly.

 

You can design an engine to be able to maintain a relatively constant RPM under varying load by managing its throttle within an IDEAL RPM range.

 

I don't think we should use variable pitch props - those didn't work so hot on outboards as I recall, but we can use a transmission system in the middle to create that effect.

[BraceMaker]

I'm a big fan of boxers:

 

BUT: One thing, ever pop the drain pan on an Indmar and compared it to your car?

[east tx skier]

@swc5150, if we end up with turbocharged 4 cyl, can we use VW engines. I'd love to drop the ECM off with my Unitronic dealer and add 65 hp and 90 ft/lb of torque (probably more since our exhaust is pretty free flowing) for $600. :) I figure we'll already be putting 93 octane in them at that point. So, why not.

 

Until then, I'll stick with my 98 SN. I have skied behind a lot of newer boats since owning it, but haven't had the least bit of interest in anything else.

 

 

[Dacon62]

Running surface of a Malibu SV23 hull or...insert your favourite hull brand here. Lighter weight Aluminum hull. Let's get this thing down to 2200 pounds or less. If you need more weight for better tracking have strategically placed ballast tanks. 300 HP 2.6 liter supercharged inline 6 (like the Mercury Verado or similar) mounted vertically with a tranny mounted below. This would reduce the drive shaft angle, improve prop efficiency, improve holeshot, increase walk around room, decrease weight, etc. Include the Nautique style saddlebag ski storage of the 200 and put in a single lid transom locker for vests, ropes,etc. that has dual position opening (either from the boat or from the transom)....Hit it!

[boarditup]

It is also possible to lay a 4-cylinder on its side to save vertical space. I argue that the main objection to DD boats is the elephant in the middle. Put all the machinery under a flat floor, and you have a slalom (or 3-event boat) with much more mass market appeal. I believe that the missing element in the slalom boat lifestyle is the chill-out factor - a group setting in the boat like in wakeboarding, surfing, and general run-abouts. Make that happen and the market opens wide up.

 

CVTs today can handle 300+ hp. The main enemy is heat. We have a solution to that problem. There is no reason why a 200hp/220 ft-lbs of torque 4-cyl hooked to a CVT could not get to 36 in under 180 feet in today's hulls.

 

To make it work, the space under the floorboards would have to be marginally taller, so the hull may be a bit deeper to avoid the very shallow cockpit of the Gekko, but it would be no taller than the Tige' boats.

[auskier]

a big enough electric motor for a ski boat isnt much bigger than a football. you can put batteries anywhere in any configuration.. endless layout possibilities and configurations.

 

bring on the mass produced, cost effective electric ski boat! ... i can dream.

[Skoot1123]

OK - I don't know why I just thought of this, but relating to ski/locker storage, why is it that the ski lockers are finished with carpet? Yes, it looks nice, but isn't really practical when wet equipment is placed in there (yes, that does happen.....especially when you have kids). Why not make it out of SeaDek material and include a slight slope to one or both sides and have a "drain" with a tube going into the bottom of the boat (where the bilge can empty it, if necessary). Carpet in that area can get musty and moldy, plus it is an additional area I have to vaccum - I'd rather not have to do that!

[maxpower220]

Sub 20 foot boat that will fit in a "standard" garage (you know that really small ones), in case I need it in there. Standard gauge set, no need for LCD screens and MFDs. Speed controller standard, snap in carpet or sea deck flooring options. No frills and a low price.

 

I now own an Ecoboost, no need to a turbo as most V-6s now have more power than boats of the 80-90s. Turbos create heat issues and add weight that isn't needed.

[Wish]

The ideal boat could have the paired ideal launch vehicle.......wait for it..

.

.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mg2zYoV4XQ

[Dacon62]

I am totally on board with the engine under the floor concept. Just not sure how a manufacturer would deal with either the intake or exhaust system so close to varying amounts of bilge water? You gotta keep this stuff away from H2O.

Not to mention the high probability of water being sucked back into the engine because it would be located at or below the water line when at rest. Guess that's why we have engineers.

[DW]

One of the issues that will become a challenge by burying a powerplant under the floor is required floatation. Regulations drive a certain amount of floatation material under the floor, which takes up a lot of the space.

 

The other elephant in the room would be cost for newer powertrains. SBC's are very inexpensive, damn near taylor made for the power curve needed, but the iron ones are heavy as noted. Cost tends to trump a lot of innovation as the boats are very $ sensitive.

 

Certainly not one to limit innovation as I enjoy tinkering and being innovative myself, just trying to point out some of the whys' on current configurations being what they are.

[Andy]

No carpet anywhere. Sea deck.

[6balls]

All discussing powerplants...take a POS boat, stick some high tech power plant in there and take the boat even further out of financial reach? Motor boxes are not convenient, but they are there b/c small block V8's provide cheap, marinized power. I'd like a flux capacitor, too, but would you pay 100K for a 196 with one?

Lots of good ideas on this thread...especially those that leave performance and dump unnecessary cost. Are really expensive power plants that make a flat floor and don't increase performance gonna help us? No thanks.

I'll take the sea deck flooring, a PCM 343, the simple dash w/ZO (no touchscreen b/s), exceptional driver ergonomics, saddle bag storage with the "infinity" or "svfara" walk thru transom, big and deep glove boxes like the 196, enough cup holders, a transom and platform that don't catch the rope, dual fuel inlets. World's most killer wake a given.

[thager]

This is all you need in a color you like! SN 196.

[SkiJay]

I think you have to forget about anything other than electric motors if a flat floor is the goal. Even boxer motors have to breathe and you can't flatten out efficient intake runners and exhaust manifolds enough to get anywhere near a flat floor. About the best you could hope for would be a 12" to 14" lower engine cover that would likely be even wider.

 

The space behind the pylon is effectively useless while the rope is swinging a skier anyway, so I can understand why it's occupied by an inexpensive V8 that we can still walk around between sets. These are world class tournament boats after all. There are already lots of inexpensive flat-floored runabouts available for family duty.

[rodltg2]

I think some transom speakers would be cool so you can swerve to some tunes without needing the tower.

 

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b265/rodltg2/dscn4442_zpsf88a2aae.jpg