Me Vs. Nate

[Klundell]

This is why Nate makes money at this sport and why I'm just a guy with an OM next to my name. Very interesting to see the striking differences when skiing in sync side by side. I should have at least let the rest of the video roll, sorry. I crashed at 5 ball.

 

[disland]

Excellent analysis. Thanks

[aswinter05]

pretty cool stuff

[ForrestGump]

I honestly think that if you get better at moving that inside hip over the ski and getting the shoulders where they should be at the finish of the turn, a lot of the problems with the shoulders getting pulled inside go away. Or at least get better. Look at Nate's shoulder and chest position relative to his hips at 2:15. That's power from a guy who probably can't bench press a french fry.

[Wish]

I gotta get that app. Apple's makn some money on me today. Very cool. So back to my point of shoulders off second wake to ball one. Nate, TW and Matt all look the same. You mentioned how Nates ski is pointed more outbound. So are TW and Matt's as well. So your line is automatically narrow comparatively.. What would be interesting is if this was corrected; would it be easier to fix the hips and shoulders through and at finish of the turn with that wider line? What I don't understand is Matt saying his hips/butt were "way back" in the still I had of him vs you. In looking at all 3 pros in the same spot, all buts seem way back, or is the ski accelerated that much further out infront of them. To me it's the latter

 

[Klundell]

@wish I agree with you I think the ski out front butt back in the transition is a good thing. It happens to everyone who is elite through the edge change.

[ral]

@Klundell, are you using the IPad version of Coach's Eye? Why did you chose it, compared to iAnalyze, etc...?

[Klundell]

@ral yes I was using coach's eye. I've never used iAnalyze before. This is the first time I've really used it for waterskiing. I learned about it from an Olympic Weightlifting coach who used it to analyse my O-lifting technique.

[Ed_Johnson]

@Klundell...Great job, thanks for doing that.....Just points out how good Nate is at controlling his COM to make ZO work for him and not against him...Truly a testament of efficiency over muscle.

[swc5150]

Great video. Efficiency of motion is so apparent in Nate's skiing. I've always stood by the idea that slalom skiing is essentially alpine giant slalom on water, and Nate's form is proof positive. C-curve body at the ball, shoulders open to the boat coming out of the turn, etc. Watch some Ted Ligety footage, and it's like Nate on snow.

[gregy]

@wish I'm thinking not so much butt way back. But the relationship between hips and shoulders. Great thread, good info.

[Wish]

@gregry. Butt way back was the phrase used by Matt B on another related thread in what seemed like a negative. That' I what did not understand. Seems to be THE thing to do. And I agree with what you say.

[ozski]

Nate certainly gets the job done. Good thread.

[schroed]

Great video and analysis. The C-curve position at the ball and staying open out of the turn seem to be very fundamental things to work on. What doesn't seem so obvious to me is what is going on in the transition. Do you guys think the "butt back" position is a result of how these guys initiate their edge change? TW told me to think of the edge change like mogul skiing and move your ski to the other edge by sucking in your knees and moving them to the other side while your upper body stays still. I think the "butt back" position may be a result of this type of action where only the lower body is moving to get the ski on the other edge. Thoughts?

[Wish]

I do not think so. IMO it is a result of 3 things. 1. Serious acceleration with ski out in front and fully stacked exiting middle of wake (already have the hips up) which is shooting the ski out in front. 2. Those elbows pinned to the center of mass and yes, a little knee sucking but that's the minimal of the three. Andy basically told me to push the ski in front of me. I assumed he ment off the center of wake. He corrected me after the pass and said the push starts at the hookup. It resulted in that position happening off the second wake. Or as close as I could get...not very

[Rich]

You are an awesome skier, Nate is right now the best there is. All of your analyisis is after what I think is the problem. Nate gets way more leverage on his gate and every other lean from white water to white water. That allows him to do things a little different in the turn. That is what I believe. Nate gets his hands down lower, gets in a better leverage position and has more angle from the start. That outbound angle after the 2nd wake is the difference maker. You can TRY to bring your hips up in the preturn, stay more open ect... I don't think that will happen unless you change the position of leverage from whaite water to white water. ;I think Nate can get a better turn, stay more open, because he has a better leverage position from white water to white water.. His strength to weight is pretty incredible at 6'2" 150lbs. You may not be able to dublicate that, however you can get more stacked, more ankle & knee bend, handle lower a more leveraged position in your own way and correct the problems caused by lack of angle. Its what Im working on personally and it has made a BIG difference.

[6balls]

Thanks for doing this @klundell. very insightful.

[Texas6]

Really a cool analysis. That video is an amazing coaching tool

[skihart]

Great vid and comparison. I think you are dead on in your analysis. By comparing yourself to the best in the biz it is easier to see where changes can be made for improvement.

The one thing I notice that relates to my personal skiing is Nate's handle control. He keeps his elbows LOCKED in, especially after the second wake into, and through the transition. I think this, (among other things..lol) really takes his ski outbound instead of down course. It also sets him up for well for his reach which seems to come later than yours (he stays on the handle longer).

[Wish]

I see the elbows to the vest as a pivot point. If the pivot is low by the waist or COM, then the ski changes edges under the skier basically when the skier wants it to. If the pivot is up high and away from the COM, then there can't be a pivot from one edge to the other under the skier. The boat ends up pulling the skier to the inside edge when physics dictates leaving the skier potentially flat skied, fast and narrow. What I stugle with is how do i keep the elbows there. Sometimes i feel like im pulling my self narrow to keep them there. Other times I feel like im having to twist my COM away from the boat to keep them there. Any suggestions on how or what exactly should be done to keep elbows pinned to vest like TW, Nate or MattB? Ive heard squeeze the vest. Is that it? Looks like any suggestions would help with part of @Klundels puzzle too.

[Razorskier1]

@Klundell -- for us old guys getting into some of these positions the pros get into just isn't going to happen. Too much arthritis, spinal stenosis, etc. That said, we can all keep improving it. @Wish -- I had a eureka moment this morning on that elbow-vest thing. After skiing with Chet and Andy, in my mind I visualize the ski getting to flat as I am at the second wake. This is a ski position I see many pros get to while still maintaining outbound direction. Been working on this for a week or so. This morning I accidentally stumbled back across "back arm pressure" (right arm when going right, left arm when going left). Essentially at the second wake I sort of pulled, for lack of a better word, on my back arm just as the ski was flattening. This requires holding my core tight. While it is only fractions of a second we are talking about, that pull seems to square my shoulders with the front of the ski and it maintains quite a bit of line pressure, despite the fact that I am no longer on the pulling edge. The net result seems to be (a) a kick outbound way early of the ball, (b) I am taller on the ski approaching the ball, and © I keep the handle longer, resulting in a better pre-turn, turn and hook up. Back arm pressure and handle control have been discussed in many posts on BOS and both have been things I've thought about. However, today was the first time I actually felt like I could both do it and control it and understand how amazingly important it is.

[thompjs]

@Razorskier1

 

Seth has been trying to teach me that for years. I actually do it about 1 out of 50 wake crossings but is does set you up for turn nicely.

 

I have to look directly into boat to make it happen but I'm sure that others don't

[gator1]

IMO: The elbows are not "pinned to the vest". Watch vid of every top skier. They actively pull in on the rope handle as the lean goes off the rope. Near elbow comes to vest, far elbow gets crooked about 20 to 40 degrees. This : a) keeps skier close to pylon during speed phase, see "angular momentum" post, b) levers them up onto their front foot in prep for the turn, c)creates space for the shoulders to stay square to course (they can't stay square if both arms are extended and both hands on rope).

 

@klundell doesn't pull the handle in, arms are straight, means shoulders have to stay square to ROPE, not course (you guys call it rotated, but in reality they are just staying square to the rope as the ski rotates out). Can't get his cg up to his front foot, sticks his nose out over the ski to get some weight up front, means ass goes back to balance, comes around ball de-stacked. Game over.

 

The key is that you CANNOT break at the waist as you pull the handle in. Don't worry about trailing and leading arm pressure, just pull in on the rope as if you are pulling your ass up over your feet at the end of the lean.

 

If you do it, and don't break at the waist, its almost a guaranteed eureka moment, like @razorskier1 says.

 

That last vid of Terry W and the wakeye camera mount is a great illustration of this "clean and jerk". Its not handle management. Its not trailing arm pressure. Its just pulling the rope in.

 

But, again, just IMO, since I have been wandering lost in the desert of "WTF happened to my preturn" for the last 4 years, and just had my eureka moment before I posted the angular momentum thingy.

 

 

[Wish]

@gator1 agree. So when I feel I'm pulling and it does not work out, odds are I'm not engaging my core to keep everything together. Got it. When I skied with Andy, he suggested (after one of his suggestions worked and got me earlier) to feel free to come up over the ski. I think several atempts to do this were unsuccessful as you say.. I was not pulling my a$$ up over my feet. Interesting!

[gator1]

@wish, if by "not engaging my core to keep everything together" you mean "I pulled in the rope, and brought my shoulders forward but left my ass behind", then, yep.

 

@klundell, my first post sounded like I think I'm a better skier then you. I'm not. I don't. We've just started using an Ipad to video then playback while the skier is still in the water, so I'm getting a bit over-excited about what we're uncovering. Sorry for the blunt opinion stated as fact.

 

A cool aspect of this sport is that there is not a clear "Best Way" to do it, yet. In other sports, say golf, there is a best way to swing the club. So many of the pros are such stellar athletes that they cannot describe to a normal human what they are actually doing, and the rest of us observers are trying to figure it out, unlike golf where there have been observers documenting the ideal stroke for a couple of centuries.

[Jordan]

I learned from the video that Nate is made of rubber !!!

[Klundell]

Thanks for all the input. After going to the lake and trying a few things I've decided I'm never going to look like Nate when I ski. So I'm working on another video side by side with Will. He has much more of a traditional turn and I think I can emulate him better then Nate because Nate is just superhuman. The secret will be when I shoot video a month from now if I can actually improve on some things.

[skihart]

@gator1 @Razorskier1. I watched Terry Winter at quarter speed last year about 100 times and I thought he actually pulled in on the handle as well. I started doing it and my skiing improved by almost a full line length. I try to pull myself up and get my elbow to a 45 degree angle with the handle low at my belly button. I think it also helps me square up to the boat and i can feel the ski moving outbound instead of down course. The other thing that I like is that it really frees me of the boat allowing me to control my reach which I start with both hands still on the handle.

[Wish]

@Klundell what things will you be working on?

[gator1]

@skihart: sweet! But only 100 times? Makes me question your commitment. Or you are probably just smarter then me. I think I wore out a DVD player trying to figure out WCS.

[6balls]

There is a position in the pull (I agree w/@razorskier1) where pro's have a nearly flat ski off the second wake outbound, but are not above their flat ski. The lower legs up from the ski are nearly verical from the flat ski, but the body from knees up is still "away" from the boat so that there is still lean/tension but without being an angular rod from ski up thru body leaning away. Tough but critical position if only for a moment that I, as a mere mortal w/out inherent flexibility, cannot attain--well I'm getting older too! With that...less lofty goals. Sure would love to run 39 some day...even if only in practice.

 

[Wish]

Was looking for the app that @Klundell was using and stumbled on "CoachMyVedeo" (just type that in the app search). Seems to do everything his did and it's free. Works on IPad and Iphone 5 full screen. Cant believe something this useful is free. Will be using for skiing as well as my daughters other sports. Stuck a vid of me in it and went to town analyzing frame by frame. Drew all kinds of lines. SO useful. And with my iPad tracker mount it will get lots of use.

[bogboy]

@Klundell, really fun to watch, and educational. Thank you.

[gregy]

I remember reading something on here last year that Marcus Brown wrote about no matter what style the best skiers are using they've still all figured out how to ski efficiently.

 

I'd had seen the West Coast slalom video and watch alot of youtube videos of folks initiating the turns with there hips (COM). But it didn't click until I skied with Seth Stisher this spring. He had me stand in the boat holding on to the tower and drop my hip. When I did it he corrected me, grabbed my hips and twisted them and push forward as I drop them (moving your COM in the direction you want to go). I went out and did this starting at the gates and was super early with a beautiful carving turn into 1. I've had some success on 1/3/5, 2/4 is little harder for me. Unfortunately I haven't had time to practice much this year. @shaneh talks about it on this thread point 2

http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/comment/119000

 

Well my point is that that we have to learn one way or another to move our COM to ski in a more efficient way. What do some of you better skiers think about this and how do you do this if your not elastic man like Nate?

[gregy]

Ok, so I found the thread with @MarcusBrown statement, heres the quote:

 

p.s. - everyones different. Different preferences, tastes, styles, habits, natural tendencies, base stances, etc.... But everyone, EVERYONE, has to follow the same physical laws. No escape.

 

Just because I preach open hips/core, and counter rotation during the carves, doesn't mean there isn't another way to do it. More than anything else, folks need to realize that opening and counter rotating is theoretically the most efficient way (based on human anatomy) to get your body's COM moving in the right directions & at the right times to get the most out of the skiers energy input. However, there are no two styles the same. If you look to a guy like Mapple, who is still running 41' off, and see him closed off during the acceleration phase, and not super counter rotated at apex....the initial response is "he's doing something completely different." But that's the wrong response. At the fundamental level, he still has to deal with the loads from the boat, and still moves his COM to the right places at the right times. He just does it differently. But he's basically a God because he can do it a way most mortal skiers cannot.

 

*Understanding why great skiers ski the way they do, at the basic level, is more valuable than trying to emulate them.

 

This the Discussion, one of the most informative on this forum in my opinion:

http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/6769/anyone-understand-what-smith-is-doing-in-this-image/p3

[Razorskier1]

I find thinking about the turn itself to be counter-productive for me. Typically if I am having problems with the pre-turn, turn or hook-up it is because I didn't cross the wakes correctly. If I focus on the lean and the release off the second wake, suddenly my turns are magically delicious. One of the best skiers I know here in MN always looks to me like he pulls the handle in at the second wake, and it is easily noticable. When I did that this week it felt great, created space before the ball, and kept my handle in my hands longer. Will keep working that.

[Klundell]

@wish that is a great question. One thing is for sure I have to get in better positions of leverage and although I didn't think you were right when we first started this conversation I think you are spot on that it is all going wrong in the transition. By my shoulders getting pulled up and rotated towards the boat I never regain the open to the boat position that allows my COM to move in the direction I want to travel when exiting the turn which puts my hips behind. Bottom line I have to find a way to get closer to the handle in the transition and open my hips and shoulders throughout the turn especially at the finish of the turn so the ski doesn't stall so bad out of the two and four turn.

[Wish]

@Klundell looking forward to hearing what makes that happen. Need to work on this as well. Tried to do this this morning (was not awake I think) and it did not go well. Old habits die hard I guess.

[estrom]

In my lay man's eyes, the difference I see in the transition area is the height of the handle. Going to 1,3,5, Nate keeps the handle pinned low on this left hip, while your handle is up higher around shoulder height.

 

You are skiing way beyond my abilities, so take that with a grain of salt. I don't know if handle height a symptom, or a solution. Is your handle higher as a result of your shoulders rotating to the boat, or would consciously dropping the handle help fix the shoulder rotation problem? I don't know that answer, it's just what I see happening!

 

Nice skiing though!

[Roger]

One thing that might help right away is to get as far up on the boat as Nate for the start. He practices here at Okeeheelee quite a bit so I've been able to pull him and when there is not a line to ride, watch him. He told me he needs to be as high on the boat at the turn in point for the gates as he want's to be at the one ball, otherwise he would need to pull longer into one. He looks noticeably farther up on the boat than you to me...

[Klundell]

Well I've been working on some of these points for over a week now and I've started running some 38's again. Even got 3@39. Still lots to improve on but I feel like I'm moving in the right direction. Tournament at Goode lake on Wednesday so it's time to put it to use.