Safer Style of Buoy

[ral]

@Brady, not to try to be over-critic, but if you cover it with foam you will rather just use foam noodles - which also have issues when caught by the fin.

 

In any case, if you hook one of these with the tip, you would have the same issues. If they are 6 inches over water, a little wind or backwash would make them disappear.

 

Bubble buoys work great, at this stage I really think you do not need anything else safety-wise. A far better ankle saving device by D. Goode than the powershells...

[gregy]

The bubble buoys are great and I applaud Dave Goode for making them. But I'm thinking something just as safe or safer could be designed that is very simple. Low floatation, displaced easily by the ski, clearly visible for judging, Low maintenance. It would probably take rule changes. People shouldn't be ending there seasons because they hit a buoy. It's so common that I think skiers have excepted it as part of the risk, it doesn't have to be.

 

@brady and I are kinda looking at this with an outsiders eye. I'm just coming back into skiing after laying off for many years, I work in a business if I'm not safe I could loose limbs or worse. Safety is a part of my daily life. You get used to something like slalom buoys and just except it. Why does it even have to be a ball, there's a solution.

[Klundell]

Watch ran right over the top of this 4 ball at 38 and the ski barely moved (bubble buoy). If this was a regular buoy I would have needed surgery for sure.

[skibug]

@OB, I wish I still had the video but it was from June 2012. I actually just did the same thing this last weekend (had it on video too) and was thinking of posting it here even before I heard the terrible news about Skidawg. I had deleted it because it was filmed with a Ski-Doc and the quality was really shaky (not a slam; we're still experimenting). I am quite sure, unfortunately, I will have the opportunity to post one in the future. For the record, I am not going to temp fate and go run one over on purpose. I can honestly say I have run them over multiple times w/o issue. Some luck involved? Yes. Better product than the former buoys? Yes. Foolproof? Nothing is. My wife suffered a spiral fracture of her ankle on June 2nd; she didn't hit anything. Injury is inherent due to the nature of our sport.

 

I can't speak directly about experiece with the bubble buoys; but, it is obvious they are safer than the older style buoys. Are they foolproof? No. But I believe both products offer a level of safety better than the original style.

[skidawg]

Skibug...I have been skiing longer than I remember and as a former jumper have felt I was indestructible in the realm of slalom, the Wally bouys are no safer than the original bouys, I am walking proof (or lack there of)! I'm sure a safer bouy can be developed, but for now BB is all we got! I have run over them before w/ no negative outcomes.

Not so with the Wally bouys or traditional ones

[BG1]

@skidawg, How much air did you have in the Wallyskier buoy?

[mwetskier]

for what its worth, andy mapple showed us a wally buoy at his shop and seemed to be quite impressed with them. i think he uses the wally buoys on his course in orlando.

[skibug]

@skidawg, I hate it when I hear people getting injured; and, I wish you the speediest of recoveries. I agree that there has to be a better way.

[Inboardfix]

AM is using the Turnsoft ski buoy. They are not Wally buoys. Much softer than Wally, uses less air than Wally and they are orange not red so can actually be seen by us old farts at dusk. Both my daughter and I have run them over and kept skiing. Best traditional style buoy by far IMO.

[lathompson]

We have Wally buoys on lake 3 and Bubble Buoys on lake 4. The BB's last a season or less before they are irreparably damaged, and they are relatively expensive. We are 2 months into the Wally buoy trials on lake 3 - so far so good. But lake 4 gets most of the shortline traffic. We had several buoy related injuries when we were using polyforms (including my fractured talus), but no injuries after switching to BB's 2-3 years ago. Hopeful that the Wally buoys will work out since they are less expensive and lower maintenance.

[Inboardfix]

@ob those are the Turnsoft buoys. There are 3 Ballers I know of using them so hopefully they'll chime in w/their thoughts compared to any other traditional buoy. I'm biased because they are my buoy but there isn't a softer traditional buoy available.

[MattP]

@inboardfix since they are yours would you care to elaborate more on the buoy

[Inboardfix]

@MattP Definitely, two years ago my daughter started taking skiing seriously. At the time we were using the traditional buoys w/o water. Immediately, I filled them w/2 qrts water as I was concerned w/having a new skier without fear going for that one more buoy. As it turned out I was the one who hit the water filled buoy and took a bad crash (thankfully no serious injury). So, the quest began. Bubble Buoys weren't an option because of the shallowness of our lake and fluctuating level (one end will get down to just over 3').

 

Tried Wally but didn't like the red. Spoke w/2 manufacturers and after several attempts we came up with the Turnsoft this winter/spring. We feel it has the best ratio of softness to durability in addition to being a bright orange which can be seen in tough visability conditions. After initial testing we thought we'd get 2 seasons of colorfastness but that has proven to be a generous estimate. However, we've found a paint which actually chemically bonds to the buoy and is relatively inexpensive ( $25-30 depending on color will paint approx 40 buoys to slightly below waterline). This stuff is bulletproof and we have a set of boat guides which have been in a Florida lake for 9 months now and compared to a freshly painted buoy you can't tell a difference (had them on display at the Masters).

 

We feel our combination of the Turnsoft and paint gives skiers an opportunity to have a safer product than any other traditional buoy that lasts a long time compared to anything which has been available too date. BTW, the paint will bond w/the other buoys as well and probably the BB but we haven't tested it on them. Pricing for the Turnsoft is $9.99 each or for 24 or more $8.49 ea.

[crashman]

@horton time for a 3 leg cat kilo Kai buoy comparison video!

[skihart]

@Inboardfix Turnsoft buoys??? Give us more info, I am inetersted! website?

[Deanoski]

yes how do we order I need 12 have two ski sites

Deano

[Inboardfix]

@skihart Not sure what other information to provide other than the comments above. It is a traditional style buoy but squeezzable like Charmin. Working on a stand alone website just for the buoys and paint but it isn't ready.

 

@OB, @Deanoski As mentioned the website for the buoys isn't ready. So for right now orders can be made the old fashioned way with a phone call (three, three, four) three, zero, one, two, seven, two, nine or email and Paypal. My website is: www.inboardfix.com and all my contact information is at the site. Thanks for the interest and I'll look forward to hearing from you.

 

Tim

 

[Wish]

So without you having siad it directly, you can buy the paint seperate? Orange? Red? Yellow? And for @OB GREEN?!?!?!???

[skihart]

Tim, I will take 10. Will call you this afternoon. Thanks Rob

[Inboardfix]

@wish Yes, paint is a separate product. Yellow and Green (for the pre-gates not timing @OB) are $24.95 a qrt and orange is $29.95.

 

@skihart Thanks for the call will get the buoys out today.

[Wish]

Is it a spray can?

[skibug]

We have used Crylon Paint for Plastics for the boat guides and it holds up great in terms of color and durability.

[Inboardfix]

@OB the paint is so you can see the boat guides and pre-gates. Turnsoft buoys are only available in orange.

 

@wish It is brushed on.

 

@skibug If you're happy w/Krylon great. My bet is you'd be impressed with the paint we offer and never use Krylon again.

[Inboardfix]

@OB Guess it would be a lot easier to explain if our buoy website was up and the pictures of our course with half the boat guides painted and the other half not would explain what we're doing with the paint. No we aren't selling the Turnsoft as a boat guide and then painting them yellow. We're offering orange paint (actually it is a flourescent orange which is why it is more expensive than the yellow and green) for the turn buoys whether they be Turnsoft or some other brand. However, if you'd like to use the Turnsoft buoy as a boat guide and then paint them yellow that is fine w/me, your boat will be safer. You pilots are all about safety, right?

 

Tonight I'll ask my IT director (wife) if she will post the pictures of our course with the Polyform boat guides/pre-gates painted and you'll see how we're recommending the paint be used.

[Wish]

Love the painting idea. Been doing it for years. Krylon for plastic is very good and finally comes in orange. But am interested in seeing how this paint holds up. I get 2-3 seasons outa Krylon. More if I didn't care.

[MattP]

@OB Sweet, let me know when they come in. Ill do what I do best, adjust and hang some buoys..

[Jim Neely]

@inboardfix can you post a picture of the turnsoft buoy? It looks like OB may have posted a picture or a link but my firewall blocked it.

[Wish]

@inboardfix. Do your turnSoft buoys come painted with the paint your selling? Also, water filled are better then not with standard air filled do to the fact that they displace under the water. Takes a great deal of waight to hold an air filled half way under water. Very little for water filled. Have you tried to water fill your TurnSoft to see if it would be even better?

[Inboardfix]

@Wish No, buoys are not shipped painted. Point well taken concerning adding water. Haven't tried it. One of the features I liked about the buoy was not having to fool w/filling them w/water. However, if it makes a significant difference in safety than it would be worth a try.

 

@Jim Neely Hoping to have pictures on the web real soon. Haven't posted a picture on here before so not sure what's involved. I'll try to find the "how to" in @Horton's instructions and get something on here (both painted and not). In the meantime I'd be glad to email some to you (let me know your email).

[Jim Neely]

@inboardfix jamneely at yahoo dot com

[thager]

I bought some Turnsoft bouys from @inboardfix this spring. Never knew what to call them before/ I have been very impressed with them. I put just enough air in them to fill out to shape. Initially they will show creases but that disappears after a few days. The color has stayed vibrant bright orange and creatures don't seem to stick to them. Hit a few buoys this morning @ -32 and kept going.

[RichardDoane]

@inboardfix - I'll be adding water to the ones I ordered, and will do a "test video" if that's ok ?

[MISkier]

@richarddoane, I'd be interested in the results of the water-filled Turnsoft buoys also. So, please post any info.

[Inboardfix]

@OB Thanks for the order and the nice comments, much appreciated.

 

@Richarddoanne Look forward to seeing the "test video".

 

@Thager Glad your ice finally left so you're able to put the buoys to work.

[gregy]

@richarddoane. What's the point of adding water? I'm assuming less buoyancy? I've heard this for years but aways questioned it.

 

The downsides I see. The water will also give the buoy more mass so it will resist movement more when hit. There's less air now, Air is compressible water is not, therefore the buoy will deform less when hit. Then someone mentioned you can't tell if there loose.

[thager]

@inboardfix Thanks but the ice will be back in like a week!!

[Wish]

Water filled (slightly less then half filled) works best on float courses as the whole course goes up and down with water level so no lose buoys. Water filling a standard buoy decrease the amount of line tension required to hold air filled half way under water by a great deal. It is this tension that makes just air filled want to stay in place and not move out of the way or displace downward when struck. Mass is not an issue as the water in the buoy is level with the water outside. Only the air portion of the buoy is above the waterline outside the buoy.Water filled lowers line tention and is significantly easier to displace by the ski. It however does not calapse like all the buoys mentioned in this thread. The idea is that the TurnSoft could do both if filled with some water. That is displace down or move out of the way as well as calaps when struck. Cool that Richard is giving it a try.

[Zman]

I believe the point @MrJones is making is that in a straight forward OTF or straight forward tip stuff the front heel needs to able to rise or the front boot release because there may not be enough force to peel a full plate in this situation, at least not every time. That is exactly how I ruptured my front achilles last summer. First set with new rubber high wraps, the heel of front boot was like darn vice and did not let my heel lift. Would have been exact same result with dbl hard shells relying on the whole plate to peel from the rear. No doubt in my mind.

[Zman]

And back skiing and doing fine early this spring using dbl Stradas. Have not had to release yet, but every so many passes I 'test' them by pulling my ski off without releasing the elastic cords. My feet come right out with liners on. Nice.

[Jim Neely]

Turnsoft buoy video

 

[gregy]

@wish what your describing is a buoy with less buoyancy (upward force exerted by a fluid that opposes the weight of an immersed object). By adding water you decrease the buoyant force so that the buoy will be more easily displaced downward when hit.

 

However you are increasing the mass of the buoy by adding water and I think this is relevant. For an analogy if your are driving your car down the road and for some reason you run of the road and hit a vehicle parked on the side. Would you rather hit an 18 wheeler or a Motorcycle. By adding the water you significantly increasing the mass by taking something that has almost no mass and increasing it many times over. The viscous effect of water are going to negate this effect to some extent buy still very relevant.

 

I started this discussion with one idea in my head but now have another idea that could possibly be used without rule changes. Basically a buoy that has less buoyancy (less volume, smaller) but has same shape above the water level. I'll come up with the some drawing and post them.

[mwetskier]

gregy this was explained to me by my brother in laws best friend who is very up on the physics of the water in ball thing. he says the mass of the ball is only increased on dry land but in the lake the water in the buoy adds no mass becasue its water just sitting in water. the air in the ball is floating on top of the water and when the ball is sunk by a ski the air is pushed down ward exactly like it would be in a bubble buoy. the water inside moves down ward with the ball due to gravity and the air sitting above it in the ball. even if the ball was completely full of water you"d still just be pushing water through water and the resistence of the outside shape of the ball would be the main resistence which is the same the same with or with out the water inside. supposedly this has been pretty fully tested.

[gregy]

@mwetskier That is true as long as the ball is in a static position not moving. But as soon as the ball is acting upon by another object (water ski) this becomes a dynamic situation and mass of the water would have to be consider. When the ski hits the buoy there is going to be a lateral movement as well as the downward movement, we need the buoy to move in whatever direction is wants as freely as possible.

 

If you had a smaller buoy with the same buoyant lifting for as the buoy half filled with water. It would have almost no mass and it would be smaller so the resistance due to water would be less.

[Wish]

What @mwetskier said is what I was trying to say about mass. As to the lateral movement, the very very low line tention on water filled to hold it half way under water (almost already is do to the water inside) is what allows the lateral ease of movement. The very high tention on air filled to hold them down keeps them in place laterally causing them to not move out of the way. I did an experiment when the waterfilled idea came out. Water filled one and used a little 3 hole brick to hold it in place and an air filled with a half cinder block and a little more to hold it down and there was no comparison for lateral or down ward movement when pushed around by hand. Water filled suck way way less then just air. So it is consivable that water filling a TurnSoft may in fact function even better. Looking forward to Richards video. And any other out of the box thinking.

 

What if you went with a much larger buoy with the super low buoyancy and a flimzy skin like BB or TS and sunk it way beyond half. Lower larger would be less of a speed bump but still visible. Like a shallow long speed bump in a road that you can hit with a car at the typical suggested speed of 25mph vs a tall skinny one in a parking lot that at 25 would launch your car. We strive for shorter softer wakes to reduce ski displacement. Lesson the ramp affect of the buoy.

[Ed_Obermeier]

This has been argued before on this and other forums ad naseum. Sorry @gregy, @mwetskier and @wish have the physics basically correct.

 

Being in this business I have a definite vested interest in this subject. I've been using water filled buoys on my own course for several years now and run over buoys much too frequently. They will often end the pass but seldon do they cause any sort of crash. I'm sure they're not the best option by any means but they do work and they're definetly a huge step up from a plain air inflated buoy. If you're not investing in one of the other "safer" buoy options, for the sake of safety at a minimum put some water in your turn balls.

[Than_Bogan]

@mwetskier:

 

The apparent weight of the buoy is not increased by adding water to it, because of buoyancy. Specifically the apparent weight of the buoy in the water is 0 -- it is floating.

 

The mass of the buoy is significantly increase by adding water to it. Mass just tells you how much matter is in it, regardless of the surrounding circumstances.

 

However, neither of those is the answer to the issues that matter, which have to do with how them behave when a collision occurs in various directions. That's much more complex, and I'd be inclined to embrace Wish's experimental results unless somebody presented a very compelling argument that he's measuring the wrong thing.

 

 

[klindy]

Ketchup....more specifically a thixotropic fluid. A fuild/gel that are thick under static conditions and become thinner when disrupted. With a buoy like this you could literally ski right through it and never know. The trick is to get it to self heal and not be affected by natural wave action and a ski passing normally. Of course holding it in the lake would be like holding jello with your fingers but.....

 

*thinking that's out of the box far enough.

[gator1]

So lets say I make us a 0 consequence buoy. What are we gonna do then? Mount a camera under each one to see if the guy went around it? He's not gonna bobble........

[ral]

@Gregy, when you hit a buoy, on a simplified approach, the involved force is the one you need to sink it, which is equal to the volume of water displaced less the weight of the buoy.

 

Assuming there is little deformation (which is the main issue for regular buoys, hence everybody's interest here in getting turnsoft buoys...), the force exerted by an air filled buoy against the tip of the ski would be around 50N, v/s 25N for a buoy half filled with water, hence the ski jumping much less in the last scenario.

 

@Than_Bogan, feel free to correct if my physics are too rusty...

[Than_Bogan]

@ral That all seems right, but that's not the whole story. Sometimes a buoy is hit from the side -- such as jamming your front boot into it right after you pushed some of the water out of the way with the front of your ski. I did this recently into a bubble buoy and it basically didn't give at all.

 

So the lateral displacement is also interesting.