Turn islands or not?

[mt17085]

In the process of designing a man-made ski lake. After much discussion, have determined that turn islands would help reduce rollers back down the lake when turning so we have designed them in. And now I hear some lakes have removed them. Would like to know why? Please be specific. Would love the feedback pro or con along with the reasons. I for one do not like to stop at each end and have always believed without the turn island you will get feedback (rollers) back down the lake. Thanks!

[jipster43]

What about severely off set islands that would allow you to ski straight in - ignoring the islands if you'd like?

[ral]

Turn islands guarantee that bow rollers do not get into the course (regardless of the driver...), as well as help in getting up to speed for shorter setups. If the lake is over 2200 ft long, turn islands might become an issue in terms of fuel consumption and skier tireness. This is the case in one of the lakes here (los Morros, where the Worlds will take place), where the south island is only used in R class tournaments. It is a long ride when they use it in that end of the lake, and you end up hitting the rollers (far..) before the 55s.

 

We have BIG islands in our lake, and I like them. @OB can comment, as he has skied on it... He does not fly metal tubes here anymore, so he cannot enjoy our hospitality as often as he could.

[MISkier]

I've skied on a couple lakes with the offset islands where we didn't use them. I kind of like that setup. Gives you the option to spin and also allows the straight shot.

[Marco]

Our lake is only 2,000', and the turn islands provide the additional time needed to get up and get to speed. We drop right when the boat goes through the 55's, and though we are close to the islands on the get up, it works just fine.

[eleeski]

@MT17085 Turn islands SUCK!

 

Lakes without turn islands have been the site of many top tournaments, big performances and records. Why would you go to the extra expense and limitations on your lake to put one in?

 

"Bow rollers"? They are imaginary - or at least as small as the prop push rollers that are much closer and aimed at the course if you have islands.

 

My lakes have no islands and are relatively short (2000'). No problems with setup, rollers or skiability. One member always wanted to simulate islands so he ran exactly the same path as if I had islands in my lake. That worked too. I however prefer a straight shot in - I can concentrate my focus on the upcoming pass, not negotiating a spin around an island.

 

Islands interfere severely with any other use than pure high end slalom. As a tricker, the islands make the lake uncomfortably short for me as I must turn in front of them. Wakeboards go faster so the issue is more severe - plus there is no fun double up if you have to go around the island. Your flexibility pulling beginners through the turn is much more limited. Tubes, are you crazy?

 

Islands are rather dangerous. Lisa crashed into one - at Regionals! The aforementioned member of mine dug his own lake with his beloved islands. Those islands killed a skier (yes, dead human with the ensuing lawsuit and million dollar judgement against the lake owners). Those islands were as well designed as any islands I've skied behind with a wide comfortable boat path. Expensive for a couple pretty trees, some hard to maintain grass and being like every other slalom lake...

 

QWERTY keyboards are a horrible ergonomic tradition that the herd mentality refuses to change. (Note that all typing speed and accuracy records are set on Dvorak keyboards). Don't let the pop love of islands make you put a restrictive, expensive and dangerous obstacle in your lake.

 

Eric

[eleeski]

@OB Same conditions, start with the stern of the boat aiming at the lake. Prop push rollers of the same or greater magnitude will affect the water more.

 

Do what any real lake does and aim the bow or stern at a slight angle on startup and there is no effect on the water.

 

The skier's wake leftovers are bigger. Reflections off docks, rocks or kids are bigger. Swimming dogs or ducks are bigger.

 

Also, I have probably done more boat aligned starts in the course than anybody - on my trick runs. Bow rollers have never affected any pass of mine - and "at my level" on a trick ski I am qualified to feel that.

 

I stand my claim that bow rollers are imaginary.

 

And that turn islands SUCK!

 

Eric

[A_B]

I have seen bow rollers and stern rollers, but usually only visible on glass water. We normally don't have glass, so.... The slight angle shoots the stern out to an area in front of course if starting going away from course. I think stern roller is worse than bow, but no scientific proof of that. If you drop after pre gates angled to left to setup a turn, the stern roller should shoot out ahead of pre gate and be gone by the time you circle back.

 

Agree that when a skier misses and is on the wrong side of the course, you will get a larger roller from the skier if you don't wait a little extra, we always add 20 seconds or so if someone skis out "on the wrong side".

[Waternut]

Dvorak and qwerty keyboards are a terrible analogy...

 

I'm not a huge fan of islands but it's not like I wouldn't ski the lake because of it. Mostly because they scare me and if someone has a deep start miss, you don't have to pull the rope in, idle around the island, and try again. IMO, you pretty much learn a slightly different method of driving and skiing at every lake so what's the big deal. The dangers of breaking your ankle, ribs, etc. is considerably higher than hitting an island but regular turn balls are still incredibly popular. I've heard of people running up on shore on a narrow lake too but there are loads of narrow lakes. What about the lakes that only have a couple feet of water at the turn balls...if you go OTF near a shallow turn ball and a hard bottom lake, you might as well consider yourself dead but loads of people have shallow lakes too.

 

Never even heard of bow rollers until this thread. Not sure what level bow rollers or prop rollers come into play. I've never felt them at my level of 15 off and legitimate rollers at the Malibu open off that dock didn't seem to hurt the pro's who were running 41 off. So where exactly does a bow roller that I've never even seen come into play?

[rodltg2]

just put an island on one end and no island on the other. that way everyone's happy! or maybe no one! LOL

[eleeski]

@OB Regardless of whether bow rollers are real, starting the boat at an angle will minimize any possible effect. If you believe in phantom rollers, you will have prevented them. If you are a skeptic, your gullible skiers will be happy with your boat path. If you are practical, having the skier offset makes the set down easier.

 

@Waternut Perhaps I should use the metric measurements vs ozzes and libs analogy. One system based on physical properties, easily scalable and intuitive vs an antiquated measurement based on the size of a king's foot or the coldest day the instrument maker had ever seen and divided by the rudimentary marking technology available centuries ago while randomly scaling up. But we've always done it like that so why change? "It's 35off not 12 meters dang it" (ptoey goes the chaw). "Meters is on cabs". True, it we go metric, one of the best ever songs, I Can't Drive 55 doesn't make sense...

 

Dr. Horton's first manmade lakes had islands for some valid reasons (like minimizing the water area in a desert). Since his lakes were so successful (rightly so) everyone copied them - including the islands. "Private lakes have islands - that's why the conditions are so good, right?" Islands gained popularity by association, not by merit. Hidden by all that glass and popularity are the dangers and limitations islands present. Few people have been willing to evaluate island issues independently.

 

There are some lakes, especially short ones with islands, where the islands make tricking so unpleasant that "I wouldn't ski the lake because of it".

 

@rodltg2 There may be valid reasons for islands. A golf hole? A fenceless dog containment area? It's just pretty? Be willing to put in just the one island you need or even really want. Don't be stupid and put it at the jump end of the lake - that big jump that lands on the island might end up giving your lake to the lawyers.

 

Eric

[Waternut]

@eleeski I value your opinion on many topics but I have to say that you're so biased and over the top on the island topics that you make it hard to put your comments in anything other than the looney bin. I even agree with you on the islands but you come off too strong IMO.

[ForrestGump]

Besides, who tricks any more? ;)

[ral]

@eleeski, turn islands work and allow a more consistent path for the skier. A good driver would turn well in any condition. I have been twisted and pulled by bad drivers in lakes w/o turning islands, turning islands give a consistent path. They also prevent bow and stern rollers to get into the course, as they force the stern angle when starting.

 

They have drawbacks as well, as the driver needs to be experienced enough not to land the boat or skier into them. When I am talking about bad drivers, I am not talking about inexperienced drivers, the worst ones are very experienced and very bad for taking constructive criticism.

 

All this in lakes that are short enough. Go over 2200 ft, and their usefulness starts to be limited.

 

Now, If we start talking about invasive chop preventing systems...

[Marco]

There is a simple solution to pulling a skier safely around the turn islands. Just be sure that before the get up, the boat is positioned so the skier is right behind or towards the port side of the stern (assuming a clockwise island path). When you get into trouble is when the skier is out to the right, (happens a lot with skiers who don't pull out hard enough on the drop), and on the get up they don't have the time or space to get back to the middle/left, resulting in an inside path where they can sink or hit the island. A good driver will always position the boat so this doesn't happen. Sometimes it means going back to the middle of the lake so you can swing the stern to get the skier in the proper position behind the boat.

[ral]

@shaneH, for tricking you need like 150 ft in total, islands should not be an issue...

[eleeski]

@Waternut OVER THE TOP? ME? ARE YOU SERIOUS?

 

No driver technique can get rid of an island (except maybe a good bulldozer driver). Driver technique or strategic buoy placement can simulate an island.

 

@ShaneH gets it. My worry is that only old men still slalom. What happens to your lake when the handful of old men on this board quit skiing. Will the wakeboarders want islands? The guy looking for a place to live with his floatplane certainly doesn't want islands. Don't make a million dollar mistake and limit your lake by adding islands. Of course if you just built a lake with islands, I can certainly see why you would rationalize islands...

 

Eric

[ForrestGump]

At a Big Dawg even one of the most experienced drivers in the world pulled the same skier shallow into the turn island TWICE, ejecting him from his ski head first into the mud. That's not an indictment on this driver. Just goes to show that even one of the top 5 drivers in the world can pull a skier into an island at an unfamiliar site.

[The_MS]

@eleeski Wake boarders? Float planes? Who cares. When I am done skiing, I will live in the woods not on a ski lake. I will take a lake with or without them but ours has them and I like them. They also make good fish habitat.

If you have drivers that do not know what they are doing, skiers that have not been explained of hazards (islands or not, there are plenty of hazards) then you have a more serious problems.

Get a good Safety person on site for your events.

[mwetskier]

first turn island i ever went around was in a tournament and i drifted inside the wake and ended up coming to a sudden stop ankle deep in mud. only then did the boat crew clue me to stay right behind the boat.

[BRY]

I have skied quite a few lakes with islands and some without. From a purely performance perspective I can't see a difference. A proper site skies great regardless. IMHO I do prefer lakes with islands. I like the extra time islands give you to futz with shorts, gloves and so forth. I also find less experienced drivers seem to get the boat settled to speed better with islands.

 

I don't think islands are inherently unsafe. They are big, easy to see and don't move. You can ski into one just as well as the end of the lake. I have seen two people hit the beach, one on an island and one on the end of the lake. The guy who hit the island was very, very experienced and had skied that lake and other comp lakes for years. That lake is big, nobody saw it so they don't know what he did. He doesn't remember it but he was, for some reason, on a wakeboard at the time... The other one was a woman who said she was playing with her contacts, she was a 28mph skier. One of the craziest things I have ever seen, she wanted to spin but when the boat did she kept going straight right on to the beach. She did walk away though. Two out of several decades and thousands of passes, I have seen more people hurt driving on the access roads in that span of time.

[bogboy]

Just an observation, the owner of the lake that I ski on has done a great job of lining the shoreline opposing the islands, and also the inside of the islands, along with the set up line with buoys. IMO, this seems to help with the safety of the boat, driver, and the skier.

[JDM]

As a 36 MPH skier on a 2000 foot lake, at over a mile high in elevation I really appreciate the turn islands. As is I am only up to speed when the boat hits the 55's. On a straight shot I would not be up to speed by the 55's (more likely right at the gates) and it is a bummer when the boat is still accelerating on your pull out.

 

There are reasons for having them that are legitimate due to physical limitations that are lake specific. You can deal with rollers through good driving which you want anyway. The reasons for not having them are personal preferences from what I can tell. Therefore, if there aren't any physical limitations on your lake that would make them necessary, go with your personal preference!

 

 

[BCM]

Most of the lakes I have skied without islands have been short with space restrictions when they were built. On these lakes I have the same issue as @JDM with getting up to 36mph prior to the 55s. If you can get to speed with enough time, do what ever makes you happy.

 

I have seen people accidentally ski into shore, jump ramps, docks, logs, other boats and I have personally hit bottom around an island (my fault).

 

@eleeski - When the old men stop skiing, there will be another group of slightly less old men ready to take your spot. At 28 I will be replacing one of you in the private ski lake community at some point in the future, its still a few years away, but it will happen.

[ral]

@eleeski, we did not add islands. We rather did not "subtract" them... It was cheaper for us to have them than it would have been not having them.

[Than_Bogan]

@BCM Slightly-less-old men (and hopefully women) for the win!!

[ronski]

We had to dredge out our 3 lakes (ski West) several yrs back and got rid of our nice big islands and put in dinky ones and unless you are only doing slalom, the water conditions are much worse (assuming you like smooth water) unless you drop in on the ends like in slalom and wait a few minutes. But then again I am old school and don't like having to pull out on the rt side of the boat cuz it can drop you right on top of the island too.

[eleeski]

@ronski Ski West skis much better now than before the rework. Granted, most of my runs are tournament sets where one does not set down for hours waiting for glass so the water has never been perfect. But I think it is better now. My last great slalom performance was on the new lake (1 buoy off my all time tournament best!). @OB Maybe those phantom rollers help me! Of course those silly little islands are irritating when I'm coaching trick there.

 

@ral Islands are OK if there is a reason for them to be there. Like extra excavation or water costs.

 

@BCM Your generation has a lot more wakeboarders than slalom specialists. A private lake market will benefit by catering to them. Of course, floatplane pilots are vanishing faster than waterskiers.

 

Boat paths can simulate islands for slalom - the actual island is not necessary. But you can't get rid of the island for other uses.

 

Eric

[BCM]

@Than_Bogan - There are plenty of young women out there as well. Many of the girls I skied with in college have been more successful than the guys in terms of finding ski sites. The girls I know are indifferent to islands.

 

@eleeski - I'm ashamed of my generation...wakeboards, Jersey Shore, skinny jeans, etc... I like boat paths that simulate an island, it does the trick for me.

 

Growing up skiing on public sites, even at 36/35off, I don't notice a difference in water between sites with islands and without.

 

I believe it to be site specific.

 

Water costs could be interesting, an island reduces the evaporation from the lakes surface, however vegetation on the island will draw water from the soil and thus the lake and through evapotranspiration (water loss through stomata on leaves) the water will be lost. It could be a draw in terms of total water loss...

[bogboy]

it seems that I should clarify what I said above about the islands and buoys. What I meant is that the owner made a nice boat path around the islands with several buoys. Thank you.

[mt17085]

Great feedback - Thanks! I did a quick tally on turn island responses: 11 yes - like the turn islands, 3 no's - do not like them, and 5 responses were neutral or dependent on length of lake.

 

My plan is to leave them in our design for two reasons - 1) Personal Preference - I like them from an aesthetics standpoint. I would put rock on them to reduce maintenance. 2) I'm not a tournament guy and I don't like to stop at each end unless it's to shorten the rope which unfortunately, I don't get to do as often as I would like :). So for me, the islands will eliminate the boat wakes back down the lakes from the spin around. I do however want to make them as small as possible and still accomplish the purpose - maybe 40 to 50 feet diameter.

[eleeski]

@mt17085 and @skoot1123 Why not make your islands floating islands? Log booms, floating docks or one of those cool and fun water trampolines (with nice soft edges) would eliminate whatever backwash can be imagined while still leaving the potential to accomodate other skiing disciplines. Dirt is hard to move once the lake is full - a floating island is not.

 

Tallying this board's votes is not particularly valid as there is an arrogant slalom centric bias here. The world at large (which includes your potential market) is not so set in "traditional ways". Plus the lawyers will have a field day with you if anything goes wrong.

 

Eric

[Skoot1123]

@eleeski - Floating islands would be fun/nice, but for us, the excavation costs that we save are/were better (our island is 100 ft in diameter). Our lake design is a little unique in that we have been able to shape the lake to accomodate not going around the turn island for other disciplines (wakeboarding - or tricking). If we ever need to, we will also have the ability to drain the lake (almost completely). If you want to get into more detail on it all PM

[ral]

@eleeski, potential market??? Arrogant??? C'mon mate, if a turn island would have dated my girlfriend, I would be less resentful...

 

I guess @Dirt is hard to move from a full man made lake...

[eleeski]

@ral I might concede the market situation - there is no market no matter what for a ski lake. I have 4 for sale!

 

Arrogance from this board, hmmm it's real. Witness the undying love of the CC196 - a boat that was hostile to trick skiing and stayed for way too long with the problem unresolved. Perhaps I should thank the 196 for holding back much of my arrogant competition and allowing me some competitive success.

 

It does amaze me that anyone with a clean sheet and no topographical mandate would spend extra to add islands. Have I said it before? I HATE ISLANDS!

 

Eric

[Razorskier1]

Our site has a shorter lake with islands and a longer lake without. Everywhere I ski tournaments has islands, so I like to practice on that lake. On the other hand . . . I really like the no-island lake because you just pull up and are heading into the course. If I had the space and was designing a lake, I'd go without.

[ral]

Reviving this thread....

 

We are redoing 25% of the bottom in our lake, to try to eliminate seepage. This included the removal of one big island (that was acting as a big sponge funneling water...).

 

Now, we could either rebuild a much smaller island made out of rocks, or leave it without any island.

 

Please your comments...

[MISkier]

@ral, I think it depends on why you had them in the first place.

 

If their main purpose was to facilitate the skier pullup for a short setup (drop at the 55s and then pullup and turn around to enter the course), then I would put them back.

 

If the main purpose was to spin and facilitate continuous slalom runs, then I would evaluate how much it was used for that purpose. Personally, I very rarely seen anyone spin. And, those that do often only spin once and set down after that second pass. They usually wait for any spin-induced rollers to clear. I don't see any real value for them in this situation.

 

I've been on lakes with offset islands that were not required for the setup. We never used them and just set down to the wide side and started normally.

[ral]

@MISkier, we got rod of 1 out of 2. Reason for putting them was because everyone else had... Argument was because they would prevent rollers to get into the course.

 

Regarding your comment on pullup for shorter setups, what would be the difference on pulling up and turning around a marking buoy v/s turning around an island?

 

[Andre]

I remember seeing some pix but again how long is your lake ral ?

And if i remember right it's been a while since you've skied your lake ?

Good luck making things back to normal!!!

[MISkier]

@ral, turning around a buoy would not prevent the rollers created during the turn from traveling downcourse. The island is supposed to help dissipate those.

 

Is there a reason you can't just set down, idle the boat around the skier, and then pullup straight into the course? Is the length of the lake (less than 1800 feet/550 meters?) such that a straight in pullup is difficult?

[rodltg2]

I love no islands ,never skied on a lake without them till now. so much more room ! less work turning around them.

 

 

[eleeski]

Islands suck! They are useless for rollers, interfere with tricks, limit jump distances, take away slalom spin options and create a huge liability issue for lake owners.

 

If you do other things with your lake like wake board, farm fish, land seaplanes or any of the other normal alternative uses for a ski lake then islands are a real pain.

 

Get rid of them while you can!

 

So many top sites have no islands - I have no idea why they are so popular.

 

Eric

[EFW]

Imagine that!

[ral]

I would appreciate more in depth opinions on why islands help/or not for rollers.

[MattP]

@ral how long is your lake?

[ral]

@MattP, 2000 ft

[MISkier]

@ral, at a length of 2000 feet, I would remove the island, if you are not at a high altitude or otherwise somehow impeded from a straight pull up into the course.

[ral]

 

[ral]

@eleeski, can you please give arguments for island not stopping rollers when spinning?