Have flips become too important in high point runs?

[Horton]

I just watched Erika Lang’s pending record again. Her handle pass is 6 HUGE flips, 2 fives and a SLO plus some little fluff or something like that. Freak’n amazing yes but is that were we want the sport to go?

 

Remember the days of massive ski line runs? I think a little more diversity might not be a bad thing. We are already at a point where most 5k toe passes look a lot alike. I hate the idea of changing point values because that has historical impact but maybe we should talk about some sort of change to mix things up.

 

Somebody show me a WL5LB! Never heard of it? Look it up. (I spent a whole summer working on that stupid trick.) How about a TW5B? I remember watching Cory do SL7F (might have been SL7B) as his opening trick. Hell bring back that crazy SLO Carl did where his free leg went over and then the ski went over.

 

I guess am my point is if Flips were limited we would see some other cool tricks. If you told Erika she could only do 3 or 4 flips she would learn to do something else. Might be more interesting.

 

[thompjs]

Get rid of toes. One pass of flips, another pass of ski lines

[jhughes]

I really have no desire to watch or learn toes so I kinda agree with @thompjs on that one. Love the idea of a flip pass and hand pass, that would be neat.

 

I think a flip on the trick ski is pretty much one of the coolest looking things in the entire sport and is secretly my motivation behind tricking so I'd hate to limit them. Can't wait to learn one but I probably have a long way to go.

[Horton]

If you can get enough points without toes you can do two hand passes.

 

[Ilivetoski]

The thing I have always noticed about trick on this subject is interesting. Every time I show someone a solid toe/ hand pass without flips (5k runs) they say something like ok? That does not look that cool or difficult. I am NOT saying that is true, but the second I show them Erika doing 5 or 6 flips, not getting very high off the water and being able to do that, they go crazy saying that is the coolest thing ever and start asking if I can teach them how to do that. Same with jump, they want to learn. I think actually having more flip passes would be good for the sport because more people would want to learn. When someone starts tricking 9/10 people will pick up slalom also if not jump as well.

[Horton]

But what if the limit was 4 flips? Currently 6 are allowed.

 

Maybe I am a dinosaur.

[RichardDoane]

why limit a Trick run to 6 flips ? We don't limit a Jump distance, or a slalom score (although INT only allows 4 passes) Seems like it should be all the stuff you can do in a couple of 20 second runs, but no repeats of course

[Andy]

@horton, I remember watching Cory, Carl, and the Larsons. Tricking old school is cool.

[Horton]

[eleeski]

@Horton You are a dinosaur! One more of your average scores in an L and you qualify for SENIOR Worlds in Tricks!

 

The flips as performed now are very cool. The power and height are still there but the good skiers really make the tricks flow together. This leaves room for the cool other tricks. W5F is a cool trick but BFL5F is the same trick with a flip added in (saw one at College Nationals). WOW! The flips do add value to trick skiing.

 

High level toes also are pretty cool. Big toe steps are fantastic - raise the points on the cool toe tricks!

 

Flips are rarely cut by judges. Ski lines attract red pencils as do toe tricks. Change the structure of judging and you may change the makeup of trick runs. I wish I could do 6 flips...

 

Eric

[Horton]

[Edbrazil]

Saw Cory in a demonstration/exhibition in 1985 at Lake Lanier, maybe 1984 Tour Finals also there, do a Wake 900 back to front. With 2 handle passes needed Was a standalone trick and took him 2 attempts, but still...

have we ever seen this trick in a tournament run then or since?

 

One thought about a switch to Wakeboard: at least you don't have to worry about a release person for toe runs...just big air crashes that nearly rival jumping crashes.

[Horton]

Ok this is cool

[Ilivetoski]

I am pretty sure I have heard somewhere that actually flips arent an efficent use of time compared to some line and toe tricks. I am not a tricker, but what I have heard is that in the amount of time it takes to do a flip, there are some tricks that are worth quite a bit more, that actually take up slightly less time.

[eleeski]

@Ilivetoski With one slow flip, it might cost me a couple points to include the flip. My highest scores have been without the flip. Once you get 4 flips they payback vs time works out quite well. You need really big ski lines (which are really hard!) to come any where near the points in advanced flips. And the speed at which an advanced skier can execute flips now is phenomenal.

 

Interesting that Ace left out T7 in his WR run. But he sure packed in some impressive replacements. Cory's runs were incredibly fast with trick density that is unequaled - and he had a few difficult tricks as well (W7F!). Aliaksei vs Cory? Both are entertaining.

 

Eric

[elr]

I think that flips are overvalued vis-a-vis other tricks. For instance I think that T5F (350) TWLBB (480)/TWLO (480)/SL5s (550) are substantially more difficult to perform than BFL (500). I think I would work on values and scoring reverses rather then more limits.

[Wish]

Man the crowds on the shores were big back then. Sorry a bit off topic. Say, is a flip with a toe hold possible? Front maybe.

[andjules]

@Horton, I completely understand where you're coming from. I have the highest respect for some of those mostly-forgotten tricks and remember watching Kreg Llewelyn do SL5s and TWL5s. When I used to trick I was a better toe tricker than hand tricker, so I naturally have a soft spot for a good toe run.

 

However, when wakeboarding came along and got popular, one way of looking at it: Imagine two identical athletes, same talent, same practice time, one on a wakeboard, one on a trick ski. Doesn't matter whether it's 1 week or 5 years, the wakeboarder will do more 'amazing' manoeuvres. You (and I) have got an appreciation for how hard the trickers tricks are... but joe public is gonna plain have more fun watching inverts (whether on a wakeboard OR a trick ski). So in the end, with all due respect to the old-school trickers... yeah, I think flips are where we want the sport to go. My 2¢.

[MattP]

A bit off topic but in NCWSA we do not have flip limits. Dylan Schaffer comes to mind as a skier chasing the record. I think he is up to 9 flips these days in his 1 20sec pass.

[FrankS]

I want to see a flip in a toe pass... Just kidding.

I agree that those videos of cory are ridiculous and awesome but when you look at it from a non skiers perspective I think the flips are more attractive. Just think why wake boarding has become so popular.

[Horton]

@MattP Maybe that makes sense for NCWSA.

[Horton]

I am not against flips. I just think there is limit. Erika tricked almost as much as some the above video if Cory. Huge love for Erika but what Cory did there is on another level.

 

I will admit that I do not know if Cory could do Erika's run. Guess it goes both ways.

[MattP]

@Horton yes and no. I think it makes it fun for the college kids, but had for future skiers to get the record.

[OTF]

Yeah, I am against limiting flips. How else are we going to see 6 toe flips in a pass? Really I don't care but that would be cool to see

[Waternut]

I want to be forward and say I'm not a tricker at all but if I were to get into it, it would be because I want to learn flips. Maybe that's worth something for the future of the sport and maybe it's something the current trickers don't want. Slalom skiing is my passion but I'd rather wakeboard than trick ski because the line tricks and little stuff just looks really lame and boring to me. I fully respect it's difficult but it doesn't excite me even slightly.

[MattP]

I want to get into tricking and I really have no desire to flip..

[Chef23]

Watching Cory is unbelievable. I can't get over the number of tricks he packs into those two twenty second runs.

[ToddL]

I know I've seen an older video of someone doing a toe flip. He had a wood dowel braided into the harness rope. He held that during the cut into the wake, but let go before springing off te wake into the flip. He landed and took a good hit of the slack, but skied away.

 

I tried to find it, but no luck. I recall that it wasn't adopted into the scored trick list, probably due to safety concerns.

[thager]

@OTF I have seen you do six flips ending a slalom pass!!

[eleeski]

@MattP Dylan had 9 flips in his run last weekend. Plus some positioning tricks. 9 hard tricks in a run is good for me - and none of them are flips. I'm jealous. Jealousy is a bad reason to write rules.

 

But Matt, flips are really fun. Learn them for the pure enjoyment of throwing a flip.

 

@Waternut Flips on a trick ski are easier for me and Kirk. Kirk can do flips on a wakeboard but they are quite different. The big wake of a wakeboard boat does help to learn flips. Definitely get on a trick ski and go after some flips!

 

@Chef23 Cory was unbelievable. I think they wrote a 20 trick limit per pass because he would run the judges out of lines on the pink sheets. While he did invent a few tricks and own the most difficult tricks, his advantage was the speed. Still unreal.

 

@FrankS and @ToddL We played with toe flips. I never rode one but at that time I couldn't do regular flips either. We would start with both feet on the ski with the back ski already in the harness. Probably doable nowadays given the skills of the kids who flip. But they changed the rules to prohibit stepping on the ski with the foot in the toe harness. A one foot toe flip may be possible but .... never say never.

 

Flips rock but as an old dinosaur, I need to fill my run with the other fun stuff. But that's OK - it's pretty cool too!

 

Eric

[ntx]

I think the six flip limit is only a IWWF rule. All class L and R are run under IWWF rules. Any class C tour, you are not limited to the six flip rule. @klindy time for you to conmirm or not????

[klindy]

@ntx flip away under AWSA rules! Problem is if you know 7 or more flips, you're probably not skiing many class C tournaments! You can do more than 6 flips under IWWF rules too but only the 6 highest point flips count.

 

Frankly I think flips are easier to call since they are generally 'slow' (meaning slow leading into and out of the trick). And identifying most flips is fairly straight forward especially after you've seen them a few times. And if that makes it's easier for spectators to grasp what's going on then more flips may be a good thing.

 

Wakeboard demos/tournaments are next to impossible for me to follow. Scarecrows, Toeside Osmosis 540, Blender, Slowball and a Front Flip to Fakie. I got no idea what that might look like or how difficult it is. To me it looks like somebody going up the wake and deciding what to do halfway in the air.....But I'm sure it's not.

 

The Cory/Tory/Patrice era was impressive! I can't recall anyone currently doing a flip off one wake - landing in the middle of the wakes - like Cory used to do! To me that's skill! I do remember the W9B demo's Cory did years ago that @edbrazil mentioned.

 

I'd personally like to see more flips. Not necessarily more per pass/round but more in terms of difficulty. Reverse FFL (or FFLB or FFLF or FFLBB too!). I'd love to actually see a DBFL (Double Back Flip = 1000 pts).

[disland]

@horton your going the wrong way. We want more flips. I never understood why the rules limited them. Who came up with that rule? I say get rid of Toes. If it wasnt for the high point value would any kids really want to do that or would they rather be out learning how to do a double flip. No one thinks its cool to ski with your foot attached to a rope. Where did they come up with that in the first place anyway.

[eleeski]

@disland Toes rock! They are incredibly spectacular when done at the highest levels. They showcase the balance, smoothness and control of tricking. At the intermediate level, women are on equal footing with men doing toes - and we all know how important it is to keep (attract?) women in the sport. Many non skiers are most impressed by descriptions of my toe tricks - and oh yeah I can do a flip yawn.

 

Great flippers are something truly special. Erika's speed and power with her flip sequence is amazing - and best in the world. But we must be careful of expanding flips too much. Aliaksei's BFLBBSLB is indistinguishable from the shore view from a BFLBB. I've seen boat views where I can distinguish the trick but the differences are getting toward @Klindy 's complaint about wakeboard flip variations being confusing. 6 flips does encourage a lot of variation in trick selection - that may offset the completely arbitrary anti flip rule.

 

Adding bonus points for flair (like a grab) added to a trick might be fun.

 

Eric

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Disland, you are shooting tricks in the proverbial foot! Think about where the trickers are coming from. Kids are not physically strong enough to even attempt a flip until they are 12-13 years old AND they are set up for failure unless they have a strong foundation on the ski.

 

Pretty much any kid between 5-10 years old that can stand up on a ski can learn toe tricks and have fun doing them.

 

For those that think the average joe on shore can't tell toe tricks apart, do you think they can tell the difference between a back to front, a front to back, or a back to back flip?

 

Another missing piece is the time factor - a good flipper will take about 3 seconds per flip (Erika was about 2 sec/flip). In that amount of time, that same skier could do two W5s and start another trick, so points wise, a mid level tricker will score higher doing less spectacular tricks faster.

 

So, bottom line is that I think the 6 flip limit is a good thing. The rules shouldn't be changed just for the best in the world.

[OTF]

@thager it doesn't count I wasn't using my slalom toe hold.

[OTF]

@disland I'm pretty sure toe tricks came about with this "hold my beer and watch this" same place the double flips will come from really

[eleeski]

@OTF With toe tricks you can hold your own beer!

 

And I use a toe harness when I slalom instead of an arm guard.

[Than_Bogan]

All flips all the time!!

 

I doubt I'll ever be on a trick ski in my life, so I'm a pure spectator. In that role, if somebody is capable of doing flips, I don't want to see them do anything else.

[OTF]

@Than_Bogan what about a double?

[gregy]

One pass unlimited flips. Other pass no flips. Should make it more interesting.

[MattP]

@gregy now that's a progressive idea. Toes usualy score a bit higher than hand runs. So a flip run and a toe run. Everybody's happy.