Does cold water effect ski reaction?

[cragginshred]

Last Friday we skied in 72* air temps here in the central Ca. foothills with perfect glass. The water temp was around 58* -60*. Several of the guys were having trouble making passes and falling a lot, myself included (no surprise there). But comments were made about the ski reacting differently in colder water. Yes I realize we who live in Cali do not know what cold water really is but for the sake of conversation who has good perspective on skiing in colder water than your typically used to?

[Gloersen]

sticky topic...

 

if you believe that 25% > viscosity from 80f to 60f water temp makes skiing different (physically harder), then...YES

[Horton]

Ooooo here we go

[A_B]

Probably not as much as it effects the skier...

[Wish]

For me I'll go back to something i said in a PP/ZO thread. There is validity in adaptability. Ski behind anything, anywhere in all water conditions with any speed control. Just think of the adaptability skills of @Horton. Different ski practically every month or less. And still skies within a few balls of PB on most. Or sets PBs. The skies from company to company are soooo differant in the way they ski. To me he is the master of adaptability.

 

But to answer your question, in my experience MN (where I ski for weeks in summer) vs FL (where i live now) is that yes there is a difference. If you or your buddy's fall short of expectations, adjust and become successful. I adjust the bow not the arrow.

[SkiJay]

The long and short of it is that:

1) cold water requires more effort and more precision than warm water to achieve the same results; and

2) The amount of relief from these two realities available through ski tuning is very limited.

So you can either work harder and ski with more precise technique, or lower your expectations in really cold water.

[Wish]

@OB true... I take back the "master of adaptability" label. Heck, I deal with everything you listed. Pluss 3 diff speed controls, 5 different boats from '97-'10, 3 different lakes plus MN lakes, all the while staying within a couple buoys off my PBs. Change up is good. But I'll trade them all for a rack full of new skies to test any day. Sorry, a bit off topic.

[Joeprunc]

Cold water effects my reaction. Though I did add a new buoy in practice last weekend with almost exact conditions as you.

 

Guy that regularly skis into 35' couldn't get 28', I think he was cold, not the ski.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Yes cold water affects the ski, but the effect of cold on your body is much more significant. Put on a flexible dry suit and you all will be within a buoy or 2 of warm water performance.

[cragginshred]

I was wearing an aqua sphere suit from Miami Nautique pro shop. The suit is for folks who compete in triathlons and super flexible at 1mm. Only cold while in the water not at all skiing. However, the principle of cold=vaso constriction = muscles do not function without proper amounts of blood flow tells me that played a role. I have a Bare dry suit,but did not feel like getting into it.

@Skijay For me lowering my expectations is likely the best advice here!

[OTF]

What does @ms have to say about this?

[oldjeep]

My FIL swears that the water at his place in FT Myers is "softer" than the MN water. No idea what that means. As for 60 degree water - we call that summer ;)

[rawly]

Tend to have less flexible ankles and knees in the colder water. This greatly affects the way your ski will work. Is this the answer you are looking for ?

[19skier]

I'm with oldjeep - 60F water is summer water. I PB'd 5 days ago water was 48F. I was thinking cold water skis easier but we don't have regular course access until the water cools and other boaters quit - maybe it's just getting to ski more buoys.

[RazorRoss3]

I've found that warm water feels "slower" and that cold water feels "faster" both referring to how fast it feels like I'm moving and how much time I feel like I have at the buoy. One explanation that has been suggested to me is that for some physics reason the ski doesn't take quite as much angle out of the turn which then sets your path more at the ball so you don't generate the same amount of time before the buoy as when you set yourself up earlier with more angle. These are just my personal observations from skiing everything from 80 degree water to 40 degree water but I could easily be way off the mark.

[gator1]

I ski two sites. One at 52 and one at 78 in August. I switch back and forth on a day to day basis depending on wind and drivers. I've dry suited both to take physiology out of the equation. Cold water feels "crunchy" "brittle" and "fast". Warm is "soft syrupy and slow". I'm running pp on a 196 in the cold and ZO on a196 in the warm. I run mid 38s in warm and 1 or two at 39 in the cold. I'd like to switch the boats to get good data but too much of a pain. I haven't futzes with ski setup and don't plan to. I think pp vs ZO is much bigger factor then temp but only when I have the dry suit. Without dry suit my cold water buoys drop off. Ruined my ankle on the cold water no dry suit. I think cold body more impact then cold water.

[Stevie Boy]

First thing I notice is, with the cold water on the back of your neck when you drop in, how quickly it drains your energy, on top of that you have all the extra weight of cold water gear, loss of flexibility and the change in temperature of the cold water, it,s never going to be the same as dropping into luke warm water, with just shorts and impact vest, with the sun shining, the only upside is generally, no sun in your eyes.

[The_MS]

Cold water sucks to ski on.

[A_B]

I have found that as I get older, the cold water is harder and harder to ski well on. Must be the ozone thing....

[MattP]

@gator1 where do you live where you have such extreme differences in temperatures? Do you do any warm up exercises before getting in the colder water?

[gator1]

@mattP I'm in Spokane wa. I ski on a portion of the river that is fed by aquifer water, but is 10 minutes from work. Lunch sets are a reality, but rushed. The lake I ski is only 8 ft deep and has slightly tan water, so is a great solar heat sink. But its 40 minutes from work.

 

We find that about 5 minutes of bitching and whining as we decide if we have time to fark around with a drysuit is our most consistent warm up routine. Its even more effective if we discuss politics on the 5 minute boat ride downstream.

 

This is not completely as stupid as it sounds. Tried getting good and sweaty before jumping in, but found that by the second rope cut we were back to shivering. And we never get hurt on the first two passes, so just a waste of time.

[Nando]

Skis tend to stiffen slightly when cold, as do binding shells. Not as much as knees, ankles, and backs, but enough to make a slight difference when compounded with the colder water. Put 'em all together with the more restrictive wetsuit or drysuit, and it all adds up.

[gregy]

@nando interesting, wonder if the ski could really stiffen enough to make a difference. Someone with a flex tester should try some test at different temps. I bet its been done already. I noticed some skis getting more sensitive in the turns in colder water as well as feeling faster.

[SkiJay]

@Gregy I recently changed from individual plates on my Strada bindings to a single Sequence plate. The Sequence plate is fixed to the ski in the middle and the front and back are free to slide on inserts. This lets the ski flex more, but you wouldn't think it would be a big difference. After all, two single plates are not even joined in the middle between your feet.

 

It was a huge difference! With the Sequence plate, the ski was turning so much harder that I had to make major fin changes to stop myself from over-turning the ski. I was amazed at how much difference the extra flex made! I too would like someone to flex-test their ski warm and cold to see how much it changes, because it seems that it doesn't take much flex change to change behavior noticeably.

[ktm300]

Debated every year. The attached seems to be now accepted by many as accurate.

[ktm300]

link to pdf https://www.box.com/shared/static/iq3oevbyhhb9rv069ijj.pdf

[schafer]

@skijay i have always used the sequence plate. ive been told it was supposed to work better in theory but never had anything to compare it too. back to the cold topic. i live in alberta. we ski from the day the ice melts to the day it freezes. my body gets cold. but i actually feel like my ski performs better in cold water(maybe i need to work on fin adjustments when its warmer) but i feel like i dont need to pull as long and my turns are snappier and quicker. skied to a new PB in 36.5 degree water last day before the ice flow came in a couple weeks ago

[SkiJay]

I heard or read somewhere that all of the current world slalom records were produced on water between 75°F and 85°F. It's probably no coincidence that this temperature range coincides with the perfect temperature range for skier comfort.

[The_MS]

Water in Covington LA was much hotter than 85 when both CP and Nate broke the record. Probably more like 95 or hotter on the surface.

[SkiJay]

Jager's article on water viscosity is full of good info:

https://www.box.com/shared/static/iq3oevbyhhb9rv069ijj.pdf

Then there's Chris Rossi's article on cold water setups:

usawaterski.org/pages/Instructional%20Articles/Slalom/ColdWaterRecommendations.pdf

 

On the surface, these two articles contradict each other, and there's plenty more published contradiction out there. But I'm not so sure these "contradictions" are absolute. I believe these differences of opinion have more to do with perspective.

 

If you are a good, long-term, daily skier, you will have a higher level of awareness. A radical temperature change will affect how your ski reacts to your habitual movements. If you understand ski tuning, you can do a number of things to make your ski work more like you expect it to. But these subtle changes are heavily based on personal skiing technique and expectations. They will likely not help everyone in every circumstance.

 

If you are a low frequency skier, making changes based on the conflicting perspectives of pros who do things differently than you and experience them through their own personal filters, you can easily go down a blind alley with your setup.

 

Changing water viscosity changes, turn shape, acceleration, how the ski rolls through the edge change, how much ski is in the water, how far over the front of your ski you go in the pre-turn, how much the ski drifts, how effective the wing is, etc. etc. etc. Jager seems primarily concerned with ski attitude, while Rossi is more concerned with how much his ski gets pulled behind him by higher viscosity. They are both right but their priorities are so different that their conclusions seem contradictory.

 

So if you don't know what YOU find most disconcerting and how to adjust for it, you might be better off leaving the settings you know and trust on the ski and adapting with your technique, cause that is a proven effective way to deal with temp changes too.

[SkiJay]

@Scotchipman I think Jager recommends bindings forward and Rossi, bindings back for colder water, leaving only "less wing" as the single thing they agree on. This is almost funny because so many skiers ADD wing because cold water is called "fast" (which is backwards because cold water is more viscous so needs less wing). Clearing up the cold water ski adjustments debate is about as likely as Toronto Mayor Rob Ford EVER clearing up the mess he's made of his reputation.

[Zman]

And, I know some skiers who move the bindings back in the summer heat to "free up" the ski a little....

[MattP]

I take out wing as the water gets warmer usually to free up my ski in the sludge they call water in FL then add some back as it cools down

[ktm300]

Rossi is my favorite pro skier. Class guy who has always gone out of his way to converse with the commoners like me. In addition to what has been attributed to him above, he also wrote the following:

 

https://www.box.com/shared/static/7mnz0dahiwcwbpa7k3qu.pdf

 

 

[SkiJay]

Wow @ktm300! Where did you find that piece by Rossi and when did he write it? Are you sure it's his, cause it totally contradicts everything he said in his Waterski Magazine article!

[ktm300]

Scroll down the Rossi's post: http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/3700/strada-settings

[RichardDoane]

water at the Broho was 47'F today, air temp. 43'F, I don't mind the cold water cause the spacesuit and Strada Boots keep me warm, it's the cold hands that become the limiting factor

[Drago]

Swimmers want cold water to set records , as they ride higher

[Zman]

I can see why colder more viscous water will cause the ski to have more lift and not sink as much. But, I cannot see why it would only lift the tail. Except for maybe in the turn where a whole lot of other dynamics might come into play, I see the whole ski is slightly lifted (or sinks less) and this would mean less surface area and less drag - therefore that faster feeling most seem to agree with. Also, some of the differing opinions might be because as our lakes cool, other things are changing as well which might effect the ski. In my case the water is now much freer of algae and sediment and it is crystal clear - much unlike during the summer.

[Stevie Boy]

@scotchipman if what you are saying is correct, then why would they say that you should move your fin backwards for cold water ?

and question 2 would be, why with less drag would you end up not so wide and less width which tends to happen when skiing in cold water ?

[Stevie Boy]

Thanks, just trying to get my head round it, sometimes there is conflicting information.

[ktm300]

When making a judgment about who is smarter--my friend who says "go around the orange ones" or the guy who wrote the article below about the relationship between lift and drag relative to viscosity-- I find my friend to be the genius of the two.

 

http://grizzly.colorado.edu/~rmw/files/papers/PhysicsofSailing.pdf

 

 

 

[Ham_Wallace]

I HATE WINTER! No Boat Drivers!

[MattP]

@Ham_wallace do I need to make a trip north to come pull ya?

[The_MS]

That may be the first official @Ham "I Hate Winter" of the season.

[gsm_peter]

Has unfortunately not skied much last weeks.

Ran a set this weekend. The ski felt really nervous and I did not ski well.

Timing was not there but I felt a bit more stable with more weight on the front foot.

 

This was more than a feeling. When watching the video I noticed that I got much more ski in the water.

 

So what had changed?

- Water temp had dropped type 5 F.

- Due to bad conditions I tried trick skiing a few sets last weeks instead of slalom (I am really a beginner here but I try to put 90% weight on my front foot)

- Tried a dry suite just to see if it was anything for me?

Maybe 'wind resistance' was larger than for my regular Camaro?

- Last week my back pain has almost disappear after decades.

I was maybe more flexible than I use to be?!?

 

I cant analyze if this was the effect of the water temp or all other things but skiing felt both better and worse at the same time!?!?

 

The only thing that is consistent with my skiing is that I am really inconsistent =0/

[A_B]

Slow the boat down and have fun. The tail will sink a little more and you should feel like normal.

Enjoy the fact that you are skiing while everyone else is eating chips and drinking beer.

[thager]

Haven't changed any fin settings all year and haven't skied in a few weeks. Pulled out for gates today at same point with usual intensity and was going so fast I was almost not able to turn in for

for the gates. Opener is - 22 so ran it anyway but had to tone everything way back. To me cooler water seems faster. Going to add some wing angle.

[Razorskier1]

Cold water is great! I get to ice my joints while I ski instead of when I get home!

[brody]

as a Canadian who skies in a variety of temps, I say suck it up an d ski, quit making excuses. I have matched my pb in in a dry at 50 c water.