Should I forget about 15 and 22 this year? How stupid is this idea?

[jhughes]

I've skied 15 and 22 for 10 years now. First made the course back in 2004, first made 34mph in 2009, and since then I've been skiing 34 (or 36 if I'm going to a tournament or two, one more year of that). In the past couple seasons I ski 15 and 22 all year, then start taking cracks at 28 near the end of the season and never quite get it since it feels so fundamentally different (remember my "what's the deal with 28" thread? Great stuff in that one). This morning I did my whole set at -28, 32mph and it felt pretty good. Last fall I ran it a couple times. How stupid is it to just say this is a -28 season at any speed? After all, 10 years at 15 and 22 have only garnered incremental gains. 28 makes mistakes show up immediately. I may run less balls but I'll at least know I did something wrong whereas running the easier passes allows me to run tons of balls even with glaring mistakes. Thoughts?

[Horton]

I would not use the word stupid and I think there is a better plan...

[thager]

Keep running your 15/22's then slow to 32mph and shorten to -28. work your speed up gradually.

[rodltg2]

I'm right around where you are skill wise, I run my 28's here and there and have taken a couple swings at 32. Have been pretty much stuck here for a few years, but it's do to lack of skiing. This year is looking good for more water time. Anyhow, I would never consider eliminating red and orange. I have actually even started slowing the boat down for my first passes. Maybe consider taking your second set tournament style. This is what I have been doing and it gives me more time at 28, but still gives you 3 "easy" passes to get dialed in on. So what I do is go out 32mph, 15, 34mph 15, 34mph 22, then off to 28.

[gsm_peter]

A beginers advice for what it is worth.

If you plan for tournaments stick to plan.

If not, just ski for fun and shorten when you like it.

[MISkier]

I may have misinterpreted the question. I thought you were asking if you should progress to 28 off and start working it earlier in the season, rather than run 15 off and 22 off all season. To that, I say yes. If you are saying to abandon 15 off and 22 off entirely and run only 28 off at various speeds, I say no. I would get rid of 15 off, though, as much as you can. I think it is more beneficial to use the geometry of 22 off.

 

 

[BraceMaker]

Yellow or nothing - but I think 1st step is to have a good coach work you through it.

Possibly even hit open water on the 28 line and do some drills to work on position before hitting the course.

[ricski39]

Run some 15's and some 22's and take a couple shots at 28 during each set. I agree with @BraceMaker on one thing. Open water skiing at 28 will help out a lot. 28' is a fun line length, but it's pretty different from 22'. Get out on the open water and get a feel for the rhythm.

[Than_Bogan]

You'll never get better unless most of your passes are completing 6 buoys AND working on something specific to improve.

 

That said, my "read" is that you are more mentally stuck than physically stuck. So change up something. But rather than changing the rope length routine, I'd suggest a) coaching and then b) try to make a very significant change in your form. Find something you aren't doing well and then focus on it relentlessly and exaggerate doing it on every pass. Accept the possibility of getting worse now to get much better later.

 

In any case, good luck!!

[BraceMaker]

That's where I have a similar goal for this summer - I want to pick up a line. To do so I am going to be working on what a coach recommended - less open to the boat and not giving it up on the outbound direction. Open water - shorter line, no turns.

 

Then back for more coaching.

[GOODESkier]

@jhughes‌ and @Than_Bogan‌ I totally agree! I have no knowledge of where you are really at, or what equipment you are on, or what coaching you have had, or how much water time you get...........

 

But, my thoughts are:

 

1. If you have good modern equipment that is correctly set up and dialed in.........

2. If you have a good newer boat with speed control and a site that has a course that is atleast close.........

3. You have had some good coaching and are willing to actually listen and work on that 1 or 2 things that you might have to suck more at before they get better...........

 

If 1, 2, and 3 are all there, then EVERYONE CAN RUN 28 @ 34! Shorter than that....... well that is a different story, but I honestly believe if you can put 1-3 together, 28 @ 34 is easily achievable.

[jhughes]

I have good modern equipment all around and have had more coaching than most people have had, from a massive list of coaches and schools, not to mention input from running a ski site on the web for 6 or so years. Interviews, videos, you name it. I've been very fortunate to have the quality and quantity of water time and coaching exposure that I've had over the years. My mind/body needs a shocker at this point, IMO. As Than said I'm mentally stuck. Somewhere at the base of my brain are some habits that are just not going away by staying the course unfortunately.

[A_B]

[X] Run 28 off at slower speeds every practice.

 

I have all of our beginning skiers run 28 off as slow as we need to go so they can feel how to stay on a leaning edge through both wakes. The wakes are smaller and closer together, so they are easier to cross. The acceleration is fun. If you don't ski right, it immediately shows up, where 15 and 22 cover a lot of sins. Increase speed after you easily run a given speed, use ZO practice mode so you can increase in small amounts.

[Craig]

I wouldn't use stupid either, but I would not abandon those line lengths. You need to spend your sets running good passes, not just trying to to run passes.

 

I too have struggled for several years at these lengths. Late last year I started running 22 with some consistently and ran 28 for this first time this year. It was not until I accepted that I needed to spend a lot of time running passes with good form and started managing my sets as such that I started to break out of it.

 

In an average 6 pass set, I want to turn about 32 buoys. If it is early in the year, I want to turn 36. If it is a tournament set, obviously, as much as I can but I don't worry about it. If I am not turning a lot of buoys in a set that is one indication (not the only one) that I am doing something wrong and it is time to take a step back so you don't practice bad habits.

 

Additionally, I am finding out that spending time with better skiers/coaches with accelerate this.

 

Hang in there, get someone to watch you, and run a lot of good quality passes. My 2 cents.

[Chef23]

I don't think you should abandon 15 and 22 but I am not against mixing some things up. I like @AB 's suggestion of mixing in some 28s at slower speeds. Some sets maybe you should try running-28 at 30, 32 then 34 mph. You should keep running 15 and 22 though and get them to the point where they are automatic. You won't have real success at 28 until you own 22.

[gregy]

@ab convinced me last year that slowing down even to 28mph and running was a good idea. I'm not going to be skiing any tournaments because I work weekends. I'm with you, I'm not going to spend much time at 15 this summer. So far all I've done this year is free ski at 28off. I'm a 34mph skier. Every now and then I run 36mph 15off and then go back down and it seem to make 34 feel easier. When I was in my twenties I had tournament scores at 28 and even 32, but since I've come back I've yet equal those days. This year my focus will be shorting the line not 34mph.

[rawly]

Back in 2011,because of a neck injury,I had an only-28@32mph summer.Could not do the -22 bump because of the impact,and did not want to get hurt at faster speeds and shorter lines.Before this,I ran half of my 28s@34,and after it,-28@34 became my never miss pass.I believe that it helped my skiing in the long run.This is the line where you have to learn how to finish your turn and have a shorter and more intense acceleration phase.Mix in the other colors,but "Yellow or Nothing" just sounds bad ass!

[Horton]

@jhughes‌ I see thread called Intensity vs Volume

[SkiJay]

@jhughes‌ +1 for sticking to your 15s and 22s . . . plus mixing it up. Part of the problem with shortening the rope is that it presents challenges that you have little to no experience with including a more condensed work zone behind the boat, higher rope loads, higher speeds, a more dynamic edge change, outbound handle connection, slack issues at the ball, etc.

 

To demystify all this stuff, you can do a couple of passes every day (either to warm up or at the end of your set) at two line lengths shorter than you know while shadowing the balls (-32 for you). By shadowing, I mean run the whole course, but run it a boat length earlier than each ball. This way you can keep proper rhythm and see how wide you are skiing. Without the pressure of having to make it out to every ball, you can gain experience with the timing, loads, and techniques that will make your next line length more accessible.

 

Practicing what you already know is good, but gaining familiarity with the techniques you'll need to go where you want to go next is also time well spent. Oh, and get a pylon camera and review every pass you make until you look like the pros.

[A_B]

My daughters boyfriend is running 15 at 30 and 32 mph this year, best was a few at 36 last year. He just ran 28@28 and that gave him a smile from ear to ear. He says it gives him enough time to figure it out and it's fun.

He is 6'4" and about 180, and a potential shoreline skier someday.

[wtrskior]

One of the best things I've done in recent years was drop -15 when I was nailing 22 at full speed. Initially I'd start at 32/22 then was able to start at 34/22 shortly after. Got me a lot more looks at 28 32 and even 35.

 

Free skiing at shorter lines also helped.

 

It does take a different technique to run -28 and shorter that many get away without at 22 and longer.

[ski6jones]

Push a little more on your hardest pass, but only when you're running the passes you usually run with ease. In that case, just shorten up until things start feeling wobbly and work there.

[BraceMaker]

I always hate trying passes at 28 mph, feels like I need a bigger ski or it sinks at the ball.

[Waternut]

My vote is ditch 15 off and start 22off at maybe 30mph, then 32mph, and finally 34mph if you have to. This should give you two full passes that you should have no problems running, a tough pass, and finally a pass that you really have to work on. Fundamentally, I feel 15 and 28 off are so drastically different that perfecting 15off doesn't really help. 15off feels like the turns are more important than the pull behind the boat and at 28off, a good pull behind the boat can more than make up for a bad turn. In fact, I started noticing that my passes at 15off were some of the hardest of the entire set often taking me 2-3 attempts to complete only to get through 22off almost every time and getting pretty far down 28off before making a stupid error.

 

I do also agree with others that free skiing the shorter line length really helped me recognize the rope dynamics. If 28off was my trouble pass, I'd warm up at 22 off in free skiing and do a few turns at 28 and 32off. Feeling the next shortline really helps with the previous in my mind even if it is open water.

[nate93]

Not to sound harsh but name on pro who starts at -39 with slow speed! My friend is struggling at the same place you are and has the same idea. After 2 summers of telling him it's the wrong approach I have in. Now he can't even make 32mph -15.

 

If you want to be able to run -28 your going to need to be able to ski the longer lines correctly. Making six turns and having 3-4 of them correct will lead to shorter lines!!

[Jim Neely]

Drop the 15off loop. It's not fundamentally different from 22off. This will get you more attempts at 28off. Slow the boat 1mph at 28off till you make it, then speed up.

[ScarletArrow]

I'm in nearly the same position as you Joel (you're a little ahead).

 

I've had similar thoughts and my ski buddies have been pounding me to drop the red loop for years.

 

The more I listen, the more I hear of people just dropping the red loop and then have a breakthrough.

 

Interesting parallel... last week, while at Seth's, he had my daughter drop long line and go red even though she's not running her max speed yet. She got to her current speed by the end of the week.

[jhughes]

For those comparing a pro (or any shortliner, really) banging out their hardest pass to this exercise I'd say that there is a fundamental difference between that comparison and a 15/22'er taking cracks at 28 to break into shortline and open some doors mentally. I can tell you from 10 years of experience running the long lines that it's approximately nothing like -28. As if it's a different sport entirely. People that have figured out the shorter lines are experiencing things that the long liners have never experienced behind the boat in physics and timing. A lot of guys running short line have no memory of what it was like to not be able to run -28.

[grab2go]

I don't like to slow the boat more than 1/2 mph, because the turns feel too different. I feel like I need a bigger ski. If you're running your 22's consistently, sneak up on 28 by adding a 25 off loop on your rope.

[Than_Bogan]

In my opinion, the "completely different from" argument is very dangerous. -39 is almost completely different from -32 (and therefore obviously -28). If I ran nothing but -28 and -32 for the rest of my life, I admit I would never learn how to run -39.

 

But I would not even consider completely dropping -32. I have to complete passes -- and a LOT of them -- to get better. Heck I need a lot of -32s just to get back to where I was the previous season. There's so much timing and strength and muscle memory (which is a real thing btw -- researchers have measured changes in nerve pathways) that simply cannot be achieved by practicing failure.

 

At the other end, there are new things to learn. So I try -39s whenever I'm skiing well, and based on where I am now I expect I'll be trying -41s this season as well. My chance of failure at -41 is 100% -- indeed my scores will probably be mostly 0. But pushing way beyond what I know how to do is also educational.

 

I would be very surprised if anyone could drop either end of this equation and meet their potential.

 

Finally, I reject the notion that I don't remember not being able to run -28. I remember it being utterly impossible. To complete it, I had to learn something different. Every time I tied on -15 or -22, I tried to work on specific things I had discovered were inadequate for -28. Running -15 wasn't about running -15, it was about running -28. It just gave me a lot more time and space to learn new things.

 

In an odd twist, I never experienced -32 being utterly impossible -- I was learning a lot at the time and I got on the then-revolutionary Goode 9100 right as I was getting serious about -32 and it went down right away. But -35 was clearly impossible. Then -38 was clearly impossible. Now -39 is clearly impossible. That's the nature of it.

[jhughes]

15 to 28 is a huge cut of rope, 13' of rope. I suppose as the overall rope gets shorter, the difficulty delta by loop length changes, but 13' is undeniably a ton of rope. 13/75 = 17.3% of the total rope length. Of course, having not compared one shortline length to another I have no basis for saying that's harder or easier of a transition relative to 15 to 28 to Than's point. It's a hunch due to seemingly huge baseline fundamentals that you can be absent of and still run 15/22 for a decade. Like me.

 

I suppose everyone is different and what works for one person doesn't work for another. In my case I'm well versed in what does not work, which is nearly everything besides this new theory/idea. Which may also fail.

[RichardDoane]

whatever you decide, remember that it's supposed to be fun, which we forget sometimes when seriously chasing buoys

[skosney]

Make it fun and mix it up, but don't abandon those passes you can make at 34 (or what ever speed you want to make you maximum speed).

 

Run a set through the rope lengths and take a crack or two and 28 at max speed, and then a couple 1/2 to 1 mph slower. 28 off is certainly a line length that you can go out at slower speeds (30 and 32) to get a feel for the rhythm so try a set of 28's too.

 

You should also "own" 22 off, so I think there could be some merit to running several in a row (3 or4) and working on the fundamentals that will help you at 28 off; like vision, rope control and body position.

 

Free skiing at 28 off is also a good idea. I like to free skiing a slightly faster speed (i.e. 35mph instead of 34 mph), but that's a matter of personal preference.

[Than_Bogan]

@jhughes: Barely on topic, but I'd say some (many?) would agree that the two biggest cuts of rope are from -22 to -28 (where you are) and -35 to -38 (where I was for about a decade and kinda still am although I ran a dozen or so -38s last season). Fwiw, I have reason to believe that -41 to -43 is also a huge cut, but that's based on math rather than experience.

 

Also, I think I misinterpetted one thing, and I should clarify: There's nothing special about -15 and -22 per se. What you need is passes that you can complete as one part of your routine. If you can run 30/-28 and 32/-28 consistently, then none of my objections would apply to that pattern.

 

But bottom line is having fun, and I'm quickly getting the sense that you aren't! So read all this stuff and then make some kind of change that you believe in!

 

P.S. The difference between long line and -15 off is 15 feet, but that's usually not a gap that people struggle with. The struggles come where you have to learn something fundamentally new, and those thresholds don't have much to do with the size of the increments.

[Skoot1123]

Go out and try different line lengths. Keeps things interesting and fun. When you need to you can always go to the 15 and 22 just for fun. As long as your havin' fun - that is what it's all about.

[BraceMaker]

I'd be curious, informal poll. Which of the following statements do you all agree with most:

 

A: It is most important to make 6 turns, shadow if you must.

 

B: It is most important to have successful full passes - lengthen the rope or slow the boat and make several per set.

 

C: Shut down your run and restart if you aren't skiing properly, practicing skiing wrong doesn't help you learn passes.

 

I ask because I've heard something similar to all 3 within the last month.

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

@BraceMaker You can create an actual poll for this site, which will tally the results for you and also allow people to comment. I think Horton's FAQ shows how to do it, but it's also fairly intuitive so you could probably do it just by poking around. Be warned, however, that's polls are essentially uneditable once you post them, so get your options right!

 

Personally, shadowing is a psychological no-no for me. I can't take the mental image of going inside buoys. That doesn't it means it's not a great idea for somebody else, though.

 

Limited to the 3 options, I guess I'd take B. But what I always want to emphasize to people is that both ends matter. You can't get better without a lot of successful passes, and you can't develop the new skills need for new passes unless you sometimes try quite a bit beyond what you can actually do.

[Waternut]

I do find it rather interesting that two threads going on at the same time have nearly two entirely different outlooks. This thread seems to be fairly evenly split between "keep doing what you're doing" and "run nothing but your hardest pass". Meanwhile @Horton just posted a thread about volume vs intensity and there weren't that many people who were supportive of even attempting your hardest pass without completing lots of easier passes beforehand. http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/10830/intensity-vs-volume.

[Than_Bogan]

@Waternut I think (hope!) that's a misread. I don't think any sane person is suggesting "run nothing but your hardest pass" -- at least not as a way to progress. To the extent that there is a debate in this thread, I think it's about finding some way to get some "volume" while also learning the fairly different elements needed for -28. Might that mean more time at 30/-28 and/or 32/-28? Might that mean occasional attempts at -32 or -35? Might that mean 34/-15 and 34/-22 with a focus on fixing something? There are quite a few opinions on that, but I don't think anybody is really advocating to practice nothing but failure.

[A_B]

Long ago I was told by a Hall of Famer to slow the boat down until you can make the shortline pass, and then build speed. He said that you have to ski the pass right to run it, even at slower speeds, and the slower speed will make you more confident and understand what you need to do. At the time, I was just running at speed and making a few buoys each time. It worked for me and everyone else I ski with. Might not work for some. Why not try different ideas and see what works for you?

[gsm_peter]

@BraceMaker‌

Being a beginner I practice a bit of all 3:

(Is needed on my level of skiing)

A. When fail, try not to stop turning since it helps with the rhythm

B. I need some successful full passes to gain confidence and to get rhythm more fully correct

C. Occasionally I press my self and really try to make a tougher set.

Then I need to save strength and stay focused

 

When it come to Hortons advice, I do not yet have the luxury to choose due to inconsistency.

I hope it will improve through out the season.

 

[jhughes]

Tried day two of "Yellow or nuthin'" this morning. "Narrow" would be the word of the day. Breaking free of the boat with angle is the best feeling at 28. Getting dragged around by the boat by never breaking free from it was the theme of this morning, though, unfortunately. Lots of falls and barely any balls. Just for fun I threw 22 on the pylon for my last pass and bumped it to 34, and though I didn't run it since it was such a dramatic change, it sure felt easier to ski.

 

So, was this morning satisfying? Not really. Educational? I think so. I'll give it 1 more set and on the set after that I'll run my usual routine, 15/32, 15/34, 22/34 and see how that goes as a bit of a benchmark.

[A_B]

Do you have someone watching you at 28? What speed were you running?

To run 28, you can't get away with standing up behind the boat, flat skiing, etc., so this makes you become a better technical skier. Focus on why you didn't break free of the boat.

[Than_Bogan]

yep, this: Focus on why you didn't break free of the boat.

 

Can't fix it until you know what's broke.

[jhughes]

@AB Depends how many people are there in the morning. I do take video of every set but this is some pretty nasty video.

 

For the -28 experiment I've been skiing 32. I am noticing that my transition is a very obvious edge-flat-edge where I see a lot of more talented skiers seemingly landing on the turning edge directly. Like wake hop right to turning edge. I definitely am not feeling an edge change or feeling the ski swing or carve out. I'm also having a very hard time getting a consistent pull-out due to a pretty short set up and the boat settling in at the greens. As such I think I started narrow all morning.

[A_B]

Go slower until you are under control and can make it, then crush it, then add speed. I am probably 80 pounds heavier than you, and I can run 28@28. If you add speed and carry it where you should, you will not sink. If you sink, you didn't carry the speed like you should have at any speed. I was skeptical at first, but I thought Kris Lapoint should know what he is talking about, so I am only telling you what he told me.

[jhughes]

@AB I like this plan. Will do tomorrow and report back.

[BraceMaker]

@jhughes - that's basically what i thought would happen initially. Its what happens to me - for mine it is keeping my upper body engaged on the handle, while carrying outbound. I tend to rotate my shoulder back towards the pylon - which is where open water essentially it is working on carrying out instead of going narrow.

[MISkier]

My ski partner told me to ski slower and I also believed I would sink. To prove me wrong, he ran 28 off at 30 mph and his form and edge changes looked identical to 34 mph. If you are doing it right, you will have the appropriate amount of speed to ski it like you should at the higher boat speeds.

[rayn]

I think you have to run a few successful passes(6 balls) at easier for you passes before you try a pass you do not make. Need to build some rhythm and go to the next and either try it or try it at slower speed.