Should I forget about 15 and 22 this year? How stupid is this idea?

[jhughes]

@AB Al, I tried the -28@28mph this morning. We had a strong head/tail which did not help but WHOA is this different. You IMMEDIATELY know when you are not preserving speed and direction. It's like the Skiing Medicus, for sure. I struggled quite a bit keeping the speed up and the ski moving on my off-side turn which feels very tippy, unbalanced, and harsh. It really comes out at the slow speeds because the more you push and force the ski, the more it sinks, to the point where you almost feel like you're going to get sucked under!

 

Very, very interesting. Frustrating as hell, but interesting. Took video and it doesn't look quite as bad as I thought it would, but it's bad. I made 2 passes going into the headwind and nearly made a 30mph pass going that direction as well but toppled over at 5. Where I really seem to struggle, and what this extremely slow speed really highlights for me, is the entire off-side turn sequence from initiation to exit. It's sinky and herky-jerky.

 

[ScarletArrow]

So I just spent a week with Seth, then sent him this follow up question via email yesterday...

 

"We discussed this a bit but I don’t think we got to a final answer, so if I could ask your opinion about my approach for the rest of the summer – should I go 32mph, 34, then 22off… or spend more time at 22of even if at a slower speeds?

 

Seems to be a timely topic as our friend @jhughes‌ asked this same question on BOS; and, of course, you know I’m always getting pressure from the other Bellalago Boys to drop the red loop altogether."

 

Seth's response...

 

"As for 15 or 22, I like the concept of 22 and have nothing major against it. You will be ok either route you go, but I think the wake/rooster tail at slower speeds at 22 off isn't always great and could make it quite a challenge. Just know there is no wrong or right answer on this one. The way you look like you can and should run 34-15 tells me why not do it and then go to 22, but I'm not adamantly geared either way.

 

Sorry to be ambiguous. I mean if it were me, I would do it the ole fashioned way, but that's just me..."

 

@jhughes is about 3 - 5 buoys ahead of me (maybe more!) and we have a very similar history.

 

Another friend of mine who skis at Victory lakes recently dropped the red and orange loop to go yellow, and now runs it!

 

Question...

 

Why can two different people with the similar athletic ability achieve such different results?

 

Theory...

 

Maybe those who rely on their athletic ability more can bridge the gap of poor technique better than those who get bogged down on technique issues at longer lines?

 

Maybe it's the law of expectation - if the red and orange loop never existed, would we all be able to run yellow? If I only ever practiced on yellow, then I would be able to run yellow.

 

After all, my fellow Bellalago Boys are always telling me -22 and -28 are "easier" because of the increased whip from the boat.

 

Of course, my response is, then why don't you drop -28 and go -39!? (...crickets)

 

@jhughes‌ I'm going to be at the lake all weekend - I'll take a set at 28/-28 and we can compare notes!

[jhughes]

@ScarletArrow‌ good stuff.

 

Fundamentally I believe I was practicing failure by skiing a line that allowed for major technique errors during full passes and not realizing it. Baking in and reinforcing bad habits over and over and over. I'm still practicing failure, in theory, by skiing 14M and not making passes but the difference is I can feel the failure very obviously. Which I think is good. For now, at least.

[ScarletArrow]

Exact same message of Bellalago Boys to me... I love this thread.

[Craig]

@ScarletArrow, @jhughes,

 

Identifying issues is only part of the equation. You still need lots of buoys practicing fixes to the issues to make any headway. In an ideal sense, if you are not making progress you are either, not identifying a critical problem, not implementing a correct solution, or not repeating a solution long enough to make it second nature.

 

If spending a lot of time at 28 is going to help you identify what issues you are having that are hindering progress, that is awesome and, I agree that is worthwhile. The point I would add is, once you identify them you need to find an appropriate fix and manage to integrate that into muscle memory. I think that requires time behind the boat and a lot of buoys.

 

Personally, I find the change in speed to be much more distracting (e.g. I would much rather spend time working at 36/15 than 32/28) but that is me.

[A_B]

Arrow, the reasons it makes sense to me:

 

28 off is butter wake to someone learning to hold their edge through the wakes.

15/22 let you get away with too many sins and still make 6, which is what we are all hung up on.

The slower speed gives you the confidence to lean away more and obtain the correct position, and hold it through both wakes, which will in turn help all line lengths.

The immediate feedback when you mess up, and highlight weakness so you can go right to work on them, vs. make sloppy 6 at 15 off and bump speed, now you are just more out of control at a faster speed. = NOT FUN

 

I bet if you worked on 28 off exclusively at slow speed and gradually increased for a summer, you would be way ahead in form and technique than slugging away at 15/22 at speed (and would be surprised if you are not running into 32 off). Just my opinion, and I base that on what I have seen in the 3or 4 guys that started skiing with us on long line. A lot of light bulbs go off at 28 off.

[BRY]

@jhughes I don't like either/or approaches. Either lots of reps longer/slower never faster/shorter OR pound the wall? I have seen guys run a pass forever, trying to get it perfect before moving on, and all they seem to do is become one of the best skiers ever at that pass, same pass, year after year. I have also seen guys just go out and bang away at their toughest pass but never seem to get through it, same pass, year after year.

I believe a mix is best, with a purpose. Do your usual 15/32, 15/34, 22/34, but each one back to back. Then a crack or two at -28, and back to 22/34 to finish. But work on just one thing, say handle in all the way out till the boat takes it, or not pulling till the boat pulls you. Perhaps drop the speed on -28 to 33mph but no more, timing and feel too different otherwise. Perhaps get a rope with a -25 loop (and a -30 loop for when you need that one).

Keep a book. Record every set, how it went, what was good. Judge success on accomplishing your goal that pass, like keeping handle in. Review before you ski so you have a focus from the first start on what you want from the set. Once you have identified your keys do a set or two of multiple15/34 or 22/34 running them all and doing your keys, doesn't have to be perfect, just running them. Then probe your limit, learn, write it down, adjust, go again. The buoys will come.

 

You say "So, was this morning satisfying? Not really. Educational? I think so." You learned something you didn't know. That should be satisfying. Take what you learned, apply to the next set, go from there.

[Deke]

I'm dying to hear the results of this weekend's 28/28 experience...

[jhughes]

I don't know if you guys want me to use this as a log of sorts on this experiment, but I'll give you some updates if you want.

 

Saturday I ran the public course. No pre-gates on that course but with a headwind I ran 28@32mph off the dock and made again later in the set. Then got 5@34 into the headwind. This was running our personal boat which has PPSG FWIW. Seems like in a decent headwind the pass was very runnable. Going the other way in the tail was a mess every time.

 

This morning back on private water, no wind, ZO, etc. was a bit of a struggle at 28@32mph which is what I had it on the whole set but I did eek out one full pass. Lots of 3-ballish passes. Far better than last week. Gates/glide seem to be coming along, much more consistent. I feel flat and narrow out to 1, then try to turn the ski late (and rushed) and end up with slack. I break over in the turn and am totally folded over going to 2/4/6. I see the line bowing on every 1/3/5 so somehow I have to figure out how to carve out to the buoy line with a tight rope and not ski flat to the ball. With that headwind my turns were smooth, slow, and flowing the whole time so there's something there. It's coming along.

[A_B]

Sounds like it is giving you feedback on exactly where the problems are showing up, which is what it is supposed to do. Can you run it at 30 mph or 28 mph? My future maybe son-in-law runs 15@32 and looks loosey goosey a lot, as he hasn't skied much, and he finished every round this weekend at 28/28 (6'4" 185 lbs on a 67" 9500), and he ran all the 28's, a couple super clean, and a couple with bobbles. I asked him specifically what he liked/felt on the 28's and he said it is immediate feedback of what is working and what isn't. He is an analytical type, and discusses each pass at the end of the lake. We also have experienced skiers in the boat watching. He ran some super easy 15's at 32 and said he thought the 28's had a lot to do with it.

 

Not saying it works for everyone, but can help click some light bulbs on for some...

[Chef23]

I dropped -15 a couple of years ago but I did it for tournaments because I was getting too tired at -32 and -35. Early in the season I run 32/22, 34/22, 34/28 etc. Once I am in the swing of things I drop 32/22. That said I do feel like I own 34/22 and 34/28 I think I only missed one 38 last season.

 

While I voted do it the old fashioned way I am in favor of mixing things up. I am against dropping 15 and 22 for the season but I do like the idea of mixing in some sets of 28/28, 30/28 etc. Then in a second set or a different day run your traditional stuff.

 

Most of all make sure you are having fun with it. If running -28s all year is more fun and you aren't skiing tournaments then do it. If you don't care about scores you could run 28/28, 30/28, 32/28 at a tournament. Your scores would be worse than running 32/15 and running it if you didn't run the 32/28 but do what you have fun with and feel like you are progressing.

[wtrskior]

One of the keys for me running short lines was "load later". The pull zone narrows so you can't pull as long as the rope shortens. You will need to work harder behind the boat but dont load he rope until the white water. Handle control from the opposite white water out to the buoy line.

 

Feel the whip. You dont get that at 15 or 22 nearly as much.

[gator1]

I really want a third option to vote.

 

Somebody said: "practice doesn't make perfect, but it often makes permanent". If all you are doing is grooving incorrect technique at 15 and 22, you'll never get any better by running tons of passes at that length. You just get your bad habits ingrained in your muscle memory. You'll get in skiing shape, which may pick you up a few balls. But you'll never make a breakthrough. So I don't vote for that.

 

On the other hand, if you just crash and burn repeatedly at 28 without identifying needed technique changes, then beating your head against yellow isn't going to help you get more balls. So I don't vote for that.

 

My vote is: Using video, coaching, prayer, meditation, mathematical analysis, tarot cards, identify the key technique change you need to make to run 28. Practice that enough (either at 22 or slow 28) to convince yourself you have implemented it. Then try real 28, enough times to evaluate the success of your technique change. Evaluate. Did you really make the change? If no, back to 22 or slow 28. If yes, what is the next key technique change? Rinse and repeat.

[jhughes]

Still struggling with flat ski/rushed late turn/slack on turn exit issues on 1/3/5. Once I can figure out how to stay outbound and directional off the wake I'll be 100X better skier. Lots of 3 and 4 ball runs.

 

Just for grins I threw the -22 loop on for the last pass at 32mph. Widest, earliest, smoothest -22 I've ever ran at any speed so IMO the plan is doing something. 22/34 after that did not go well, but I was very tired and I over-sped the glide. I do believe I have to keep 34 in the mix so that I don't lose the feel for that speed in general. -28 is a tough teacher but I'm learning bit by bit.

[wtrskior]

@jhughes‌ start at 22/32, bump the speed to 34, run it, then put the yellow loop on and drop the speed 1mph or so. Not running 6 buoys will hurt you in the long run IMO.

 

run some "volume" sets at 22 off if you are so wide and early, try and get wider and earlier at 34mph. This WILL help you at 28, its only 6 feet...

[jhughes]

@wtrskior‌ I think that's a good idea.

 

Looking a the video now the 22 pass is not as wide and early as it seemed but BOY did it feel smooth and easy. Both vids are at 32mph.

 

22 pass:

 

 

28 pass (pretty typical 32mph attempt, and yes my lower back aches a bit)

 

 

 

 

 

[A_B]

Focus on arms straight out of 135 and lean away at 28. You will gain warp speed vs where you are at now.

Get higher up on boat sooner for gate.

[Chef23]

@jhughes there is a lot of good stuff going on there. I agree with @AB you need better body position and lean to have 28 feel like 22.

 

Definitely work on getting higher up on the boat at the gates. That will make a big difference.

[A_B]

I still don't see a reason to NOT go 28 or 30 mph until you are running 28's easy. I agree to run your normal speed at longer line, just save some mojo for 3 or 4 passes at 28. The slower speed 28 is not about posting a score, it's about learning how to do it right.

 

[SpartanSki]

I'll add myself as another datapoint to this experiment. @jhughes‌ I'm about where you're at, 15off fairly consistent, 22 less consistent, 28 I don't get a whole lot of shots at it. This morning I decided to forget the first two loops and go straight to 28 @ 30 for the first set, 28 @ 28 for the second.

 

The first thing I noticed was a rushed gate, I was over turning and biting off more than I could chew and ended up giving a lot of angle back. Second thing was that with the abrupt finish to the turn compared 15/22 I was getting folded up and losing my stack. Third, if I didn't hold on through the wakes I wouldn't cast outbound enough to break free of the boat, I think that was my ah ha moment.

 

I think this is a pretty good experiment, 28 sure highlighted my flaws quickly and there was no muscling out an ugly pass. But when I got it right it rewarded me with probably the best 2-3 I've ever had. Bottom line this showed me a lot and very quickly, but more so it removed a lot of the frustration and was a hell of a lot of fun.

[jhughes]

Still chugging along with this. I'm finding that SLOW and PATIENT, particularly in the offside turn is the difference maker with this pass. A rush and grab with the off-hand is a disaster at this length and unfortunately it's a trademark move of mine at the longer lines.

 

I made a pass this morning at 32mph where every turn was terrible, slack hit, flat ski, reset but still made the pass. What that taught me is just HOW MUCH time there is in the course to make the pass. No need to rush. Slow off the handle, slow in the turn, let the ski finish.

 

I also have to be gradual with my application of lean/intensity out of the ball, I bite off more than I can chew causing insta-release out to the ball.

 

I am feeling something new every single set this year by using the codename yellow plan. Still sticking with it. I'm videoing all these sets so I hope to put together a Rocky-style montage at the end of the season.

[Deke]

@jhughes have you tried 28 or 30 mph as suggested by several folks?

[Greg Banish]

That montage will be solid gold. Make sure you share with us, John. I'm where you were probably a year or two ago, working on getting -22/30 right more often than not, then trying to creep up the speed. I really can't get the hang of going faster than 30.4 at -15, but adding some whip at -22/-28 seems to make it easier to speed up and still get across in time. Like you, my best passes are the ones where I'm most relaxed and not rushing the turns/exits.

[jhughes]

@Deke yes, and I noted it IIRC. 28mph was very educational but nothing I'd want to repeat regularly. I learned a lot because the water gets very squishy the moment you push against the ski or lose angle/direction at that speed. Skied 30 that same set and it was slightly less squishy feeling. Both speeds really point out the bad very quickly but I didn't find them fun to ski. 32 for me is a good combination of education and fun, both things being equally important with such a short season.

[jhughes]

Well, after a couple weeks of the 28 plan I think today was the last day of it exclusively. I'm going to roll back to more traditional sets but try to always end at 28 so that I always have a crack at it. Can't wait to see how my longer passes feel now.

 

I'm ready to run some full passes and my lower back needs a break before it... breaks. The forces at play at -28 are extreme on the body when you are not doing it right and I'm feeling it at this point pretty badly! Uncle!

[gregy]

Cool let us know the longer line outcome. My knee is still getting sore when I ski plus waiting for a new vapor so I've been dry land training twice a day. Got a rope setup on my deck and I went through and wrote down everything step by step where each part of my body should be during the different phase of the course. I"m trying to vision myself going through the course doing everything right.

 

One thing I've noticed is that if you are in balanced stacked position leaning against the rope and you move your hips just a little forward your body wants to shut forward. Is this the feeling you are look for out of the turn? @ab anyone else?

[Chef23]

@jhughes you probably already know this but if your back is sore you need to work on getting better body position behind the boat.

 

I would still work in some 28s at slower speeds with running your normal stuff. Just keep it fun.

[A_B]

@gregy, what do you mean by shut forward? Moving toward the boat or moving toward the direction of travel?

[gregy]

@AB‌ in the direction of travel - tangent to arc of rope.

[A_B]

By moving your hips forward, you help keep your central mass forward, couple with the handle close to the hips to increase your leverage position, and prevents droopy butt syndrome = ALL GOOD.

[jhughes]

Ran 3 -22/32mph passes back to back off the dock this morning, then bumped it to 34 and nearly nailed that (5 balls) immediately. That used to be about a 50/50 pass but I nearly made it right here after not skiing 34 for a couple weeks.

 

Just for fun threw -15 on. I have not skied this line for weeks. It is so different, I'd go as far as to say the difference is insane. Super, super soft. No hits from the boat whatsoever, oodles of time to get the ski under you, etc. So foreign, though, that I was useless trying to ski it! I'd have to work at getting used to it again. It's so different that I can't believe that's what I ran for so long. It's not that I'm better than it (I'm not), it's just that it's very different.

 

At -22 I can run more passes and still feel some things that 28 is trying to teach me, but with a lot more forgiveness. 15 is in a totally different ski galaxy as far as I'm concerned.

 

The -28 experiment has certainly made me a better skier as reflected in my -22 passes. It has also made 15 feel extremely weird to ski at this point, which I don't know if that is an improvement or not. I'm sure I'd get used to 15 if I skied it more and be better at that pass as well. Either way this has been pivotal and eye opening season. Really glad I did it.

 

I also fashioned a -24.5 loop, I'll mix that in too.

[gsm_peter]

@‌jhuges

Congrats!

This is a really interesting thread to follow since I hope I (hmmm...) will be there in a few years

[Than_Bogan]

Very happy for you @jughes! You really sounded stuck at the beginning of this thread, but now I sense a ton more enthusiasm. And I think you're managing this in a very smart way, balancing the "best" way to progress with doing stuff that keeps you engaged and having fun.

 

GOOD LUCK!!

[wtrskior]

@jhughes‌ Like I said initially, stay with 22 off, if you need a slow speed to get around all 6, do that. best thing I ever did was ditch -15off... like you said its so much different. good luck.

[jhughes]

Video from this morning, pretty froggy out. This is 22/32mph. I think my body position is getting better but it's not going to be perfect overnight. Kinda gets progressively worse 1-2, 3-4, 5-6. Also I suppose I'd like to see an earlier transition to the turning edge, however that's accomplished.

 

[Chef23]

@jhughes good skiing you are definitely making progress. The earlier transition to the turning edge is based on the angle you take out of the buoy not something you can force after the second wake. Most people struggling to run -22 don't benefit by trying to change edges earlier as they don't have enough angle and speed to get them to the buoy if they change early.

 

If you watch the Seth Stisher video that you used to have on your website Seth is able to change edges early because he has way more angle and speed out of the ball than most of us have.

 

Continue to work on your body position and letting the ski finish the turn and you will get there. Lots of good stuff going on with your skiing.

[jhughes]

Body position will be a huge focus for me this year. This is the first year I've felt had any real control, awareness, or cognizance of body position (I'd previosly taken a somewhat victimish stance on it, with a little denial mixed in) but I can feel it now and I needed my -28 spell to feel it and become aware of it. If I can straighten things out behind the boat I will be able to get away with murder everywhere else in the course. That's the plan from here on out.

[Than_Bogan]

@Jhughes If your "experiment" has brought you to that realization, then I'd label it a complete success. It won't be long now before you get to coach people to work on nothing but body position behind the boat, and shake your head sadly when they don't believe you! :).

[A_B]

My "prodigy" maybe future son-in-law ran yellow at 30 mph last night and was stoked. He actually looks better at 28 off than 15, although he was running up into 34 mph last night at 15. Should be running it, just making mistakes here and there. Not bad for about his 4th time on the water this year.

 

 

[gregy]

@AB one of my ski partners had free skied for many years and always at short line lengths. He struggled at 15 off for a couple of seasons on the course. One day he says 15off just doesn't feel right I'm trying 22off. He had been struggling at 15off at any speed to even run a pass. I'm thinking to myself, this is going to be bad! He goes out and ran 22off 30mph easy then half way through 32mph.

[A_B]

I hate 15 and 22. I ski at a lake in Michigan that doesn't even have those loops on the line.

Helps to not have that much line laying around in the boat anyway!

[ScarletArrow]

Well, I gave it a go yesterday... tried 28mph 28off.

 

- It was really fun just to try something totally new and different

- Amazing that there is no wake even at 28mph

- Going slow really put less stress on the body, which increased the fun factor

- Not sure I would want to go that slow all the time

- It felt "easy"... I fell at 3 ball on my first two attempts, but I knew right away that I could and would run the pass

- The hardest part is keeping your speed and direction going into the buoy - several times I thought I was just fine coming off the 2nd wake, only to see all of my space disappear.

- I bumped it to 30mph 28off and ran all except 3 ball

[A_B]

Anthony that is awesome you tried it. Focus on why you lost direction and were narrow. That is exactly what the pass is supposed to do, highlight what and where, because at longer lines, you can get away with it many times. At 28, you won't run it if it you have a major flaw. Have the boat crew watch handle and body position through both wakes and white water areas. Get it right to run it, then go back to longer line and see if it makes a difference, it should.

 

Most people run 15 and 22 the same day and pickup a few at 28, when they finally make their 15 at max speed. Working at 28 at slow speeds might just help get further down the line when you get there at max speed, and I feel it helps run 15/22 sooner.

 

And glad to hear you had fun, as that is a big part of not getting frustrated by those little red rubber balls.

[dchristman]

I think I voted "this is stupid..." but I changed my mind. I need to progress before... well, I get really old and can't! I never really had a plan, or put serious thought into slalom for the past 30 some years as I considered tricks to be my thing. I just slalomed because "everybody else is doing it". I have become seriously addicted to slalom due to this forum and a long winter of reading. I felt stuck at 15, 22, very occasional 28 and a then a shot at 32 yeah, I'll try it, phew! I'm finished. It can't possibly get better doing it like that.

 

I am now committed to making major improvements this year, and it starts with the tips I've found here and just shortening the line. I started keeping a log and making performance notes and what I want to work on. Spurred on by this thread, I decided to do is to go out at 32mph 25off (yes, 25). I first run two passes out of sync with the course concentrating on the fundamentals, and then attempt to run the course. If I make the pass, I'll go to 22 at 34, and then try 28. Skiing out of sync with the course, I find my skiing is much smoother, the rhythm is right and feels good, and I can tell I'm wide of the the ball line because I'm looking down course. The third pass I go for course. Those damn orange balls are just too distracting, causing all those impatient thoughts to enter my head leading to trouble. I vow to vanquish those thoughts!

[jipster43]

If a pass is frustrating you, it always seems to come down to the basics - stack and handle control. Do or find whatever helps you improve those two things (then write a book on what you find), and you'll be smoking 32' off and every pass and speed below that will feel ridiculous as opposed to foreign.

 

And above all else... Remember I'm the worst skier on this site and really have no business commenting!

[gsm_peter]

@jipster43‌ Skip the book.

What about a tight kevlar suite with a built in hudralic system that moves your body around in a stacked positon and correct handle control? Program the suite for 34@28off and steer it via the zo and the rope!

You can then train muscle memory even in the bed ( hmmmm, maybe your wife do not like that pyjamas

;0))

[Moggie]

If you don't have to worry about tournaments, then there's probably lots to be gained for dropping 15 and 22off. Unfortunately they are so different from 28, particularly 15, and if you don't practice it you'll suffer in tournaments, as I discovered. Until I'm consistent at 58kph 22off, 15 is here to stay.

[Deke]

@jhughes‌ and @ScarletArrow‌ I would love to hear more about how the slow -28's are going. Have either of you gotten this all the way down to 28 mph yet?

[Chef23]

My son did a little of this the other day. He has run 36/15 a couple of times and he went out and ran a set and ran 2@28 off at 32 mph. We had a clinic with Jaret Llewelyn last weekend and he is a big advocate of slowing down and shortening the rope then speeding back up in the week leading into the tournament.

[jhughes]

@Deke You'll have to re-read the thread because I went over that twice at this point. Can't speak for SA, though.

 

FWIW right now I'm doing 32mph -22 openers, then bumping to 34mph then shortening. Today's set was 2x22@32, 3x22@34, 1x28@34, got around 3 at -2. I mix it up a bit each set.

 

I have not seriously incorporated -15 into a set since probably May. Not missing it, either. I am skiing better than ever this year.