Vapor help, please!

[jimbrake]

My 15 yo son has been on a 65" Vapor all season. Skied great on it at first setting a PB of 1 @ 35 off back in late June. He continued skiing well on it through July and at Regionals he fell around 5 @ 32 off, but was running it. As of a couple of weeks ago he was struggling to run 28 with no hope at 32 and now he's struggling to run 22. The posted videos are a couple of weeks old when he was running 22 and struggling at 28. Settings are: 28 7/8, 6.887, 2.470, 0.740, 9, which I believe are the "Rossi settings". We would rather work on his technique than setup, but I'm starting to question the ski and/or setup now. Any thoughts on technique or setup would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance!

 

 

 

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[Texas6]

Can't see your video @jimbrake

[jimbrake]

Hmmm. Video links didn't post. Try again.

[jimbrake]

here is the other one. First one above is at 22 off, this one is at 15, both at 36 mph.

[Texas6]

Kid ski's really well! Its a bit hard for me to tell in slow motion, but to me that whole pass appears to be a symptom of his gate and 1 ball. He gets nice and wide in his pullout, squares up down course nicely, but he appears to be slowing down and sinking while making a really aggressive turn in towards one and is simply carrying too much speed into one ball. Subsequently he gets some slack and ends up late out of one, and late throughout the rest of the pass. I wouldn't change a thing in the pull-out, but would work on a slower more progressive turn in to the gates. I think that will clean that pass up in a hurry, and the next one. To me, the ski setup looks ok - but I'm curious if anybody else thinks differently.

[markchilcutt]

@jimbrake Has your water cooled down?

[Horton]

[wtrskior]

what is the spread like between his boots? I have always had my boots as close as possible, but on the vapor thanks to some pro coaching, I increased the spread, moving the rear boot back, and the front boot forward 1/8.

I agree on gate, too hard too soon, He's late through that entire 22 pass. great technique though, maybe just a little slump.

[Horton]

Odds that the ski changed are extremely small. If fin and bindings have not changed i say he is in a slump

[jimbrake]

@markchilcutt‌ - overall yes, but it's up and down with our weather. Hot spells, cool downs, warm again - the water changes with it. Still warm. It's not super Gulf Coast states warm, but it's probably in the 75 to 80 range.

 

@Texas6‌ - thanks. I agree. He needs to generate his gate angle more progressively, so he gets the angle with a little less speed.

[markchilcutt]

@jimbrake I am on a 67 Vapor 34mph running 35 on a good day in practice.I havnt watched any of the video but thanks to my buddy Rossi i figured out with 10 degree water change i need to move bindings. Example went to florida this spring (i ski in Utah) (Utah water was low 60's florida was mid 70's) and felt out of it first day first set. Rossi had me move bindings 3/16 back and bingo killing it!! Same thing just happened but opposite here in Utah. We had a cold rainy period and the water dropped into the upper 60's and i could not buy a pass (struggled to run 28 off) then i remembered move bindings!! I moved boots forward 3/16" and bingo 2nd set was money 4@35! Just my experience and may not be relevant for your boy.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

The ski looks fine. In that clip, his gate turn in is ok, but he let up just before the first wake and hopped pretty bad. That put him going straight at the buoy and turning way downcourse. If he stays down through the wakes, I bet that will fix 90% of the problem.

[Chef23]

I agree with @Bruce_Butterfield‌. I think your son is letting up early pretty much the whole pass and that is making him later and later through the pass.

 

He looks like a great skier I would love my 15 year old to have the same fundamentals. It is a minor slump once you fix it he will be back running deep 32 in no time.

[disland]

Lesson learned this season. Record all practice sets. If you have video of the skier when he was skiing good its much easier to compare to when something is going wrong. Usually the problem jumps right out. You can even get fancy and compare them frame by frame and see where time was lost.

[disland]

One other idea. My son used to miss 22 off at 36 a third of the time., and he can run 35 off. There is a lot of rope there and can be hard to manage. We got rid of that pass a few years ago and now he opens at 28 off 34 mph when he needs or wants and extra warm up pass.

[markchilcutt]

I would be curious to see what happens for your boy one set with boots forward 1/2 hole if using sequence plate or 3/16" otherwise?

[jimbrake]

@Bruce_Butterfield‌ - that's something we work on and yes that gate is a good example of him not staying down.

@disland - we don't video enough. Just started doing more and although it's painful sometimes to watch yourself, it definitely is helpful.

@markchilcutt‌ - I've been thinking about a move forward, will probably give that a try along with just staying down.

 

Just like I do with my skiing, sometimes I get too detailed and technical with him, then all of a sudden a light will go off in my head, and I'll simplify things for him (like "stay down through the wakes" or "make space") and he'll bust out of a slump or improve. I think that is where we are now. Thanks, all.

[mwetskier]

i agree with bruce butterfield. i had no idea it was even possible to run 22 off so narrow but with all that rope he could stay out bound a while longer and apex way up course of the ball instead of way past it. check out this 2009 video of chris rossi skiing on an early radar strada. he opens at 32 off which is 10 ft shorter than 22 off and yet he apexes way up course and wider than the buoy,

 

[jimbrake]

What I see in that video of Rossi is not him staying down through the second wake (because there isn't one - there's just a bump with a trough on either side), but how flawless his stack STAYS through the centerline, through the edge change, and beyond. He stays completely connected and he doesn't lose any space or a degree of angle as he moves through the trough/wake/trough. That is exactly what I'm trying to improve in my skiing and what I'm trying to get both my boys to do. I will show them this video tonight.

[Texas6]

After watching again, I think Bruce is also right about him letting up early and getting pulled narrow...Having said that, I think that is a symptom of the aggressive turn-in and him feeling he needs to start bleeding off the speed sooner so he doesn't come flying into one. I think a minor fix on both of those issues, and he's stroking that pass and the next few. His fundamental technique is REALLY REALLY good

[A_B]

Agree with comments on him getting stood up behind the boat. Over the years there were times when I was skiing really good, and then started taking it easy on passes I thought I no longer had to work for. This was a problem. On all,passes, have him focus on getting 6" lower as he hits the first wake and hold it. Reality is it will prevent him from getting pulled up by the boat, he won't get lower. He should be back-siding the buoys at 22 from what I see. Effort needs to bump behind the boat. Could drop the inside hip more, load a little more on lead arm, etc...

 

How much does he weigh? That's a short ski.

[Deanoski]

I would try 29. or 29 1/4 with front boot 2.480 6.870 74.5 9 wing this tight up both side turns.

 

Im on a 67 30.25 fb been running35 34mph water 70-80 front boot forward cleaned up the on side? I know seams crazy but after talking to Eddie he said lot of good skiers are moving forward with boots on the vapor.

 

try it what can it hurt?

 

B

Deano

 

 

[markchilcutt]

Notice how patient Rossi is on his offside 1,3,5 in that video. Great example of letting the ski finish on the offside before trying to hook up to the handle.

[Than_Bogan]

Personally I think I'd get more ideas from watching full speed. I agree with the general sentiment above that something is going wrong very early, and I suspect it's timing related, and in slo-mo I really have no feel for what the timing should look like.

 

Also can easily believe he runs -32 most of the time. Everything looks really good after 1 ball.

[Texas6]

I agree the 30.25 fb measurement worked out awesome for me - but I really don't see problems in his setup personally.

[Deanoski]

Texas 6 he has slack line out of 135 the ski is turning slow on the onside.

[Texas6]

@Deanoski, great point and you could be right, but he's chasing the pass - I'd need to see a cleaner start to the pass before I could make that recommendation. But given the slack at one, that is certainly possible...I'd try addressing the technique before changing the setup - but that's my style, not saying its the right way:)

[markchilcutt]

@jimbrake I just watched the video of your boy he is skiing awesome! Move bindings forward you might be amazed at the results?

[Deanoski]

if the ski has the wrong set up good luck! I have seen many skiers form -15 -35 struggle then one or two small adjustments and they are running PBs

[jimbrake]

@Than_Bogan‌ - I posted a link to a full-speed pass (15 off at 36) above. I agree with everyone that is saying he's just not staying down and strong through the wake(s). We'll address that. He's very coachable, so shouldn't be tough to fix. The tough part is making it stick so it doesn't drift away when we invariably work on other things.

 

We always address technique before setup, sometimes I think to our detriment. I will also have him try bindings forward a bit and see what happens.

 

Thanks all for the comments and keep 'em coming if you see anything else.

[ForrestGump]

Compare the video of rossi and your son and freeze frame the point where each goes vertical. Rossi goes vertical (meaning he's upright and the ski is directly underneath him on it's transition point to the inside edge) at the edge of the white water on the backside of the 2nd wake. Your son is vertical before the right hand gate buoy. Which means Roscoe has maintained his leveraged position for 8-10 feet longer.

[A_B]

I would like to see the form improve, but one fin change for him might be to change his fin depth. Less depth and he would have less pressure to stand him up. I would try it and see if this has an immediate improvement, if not, go back and work on the above comments.

[Chef23]

If he was running into 35 earlier in the year on that ski with that setup and nothing has changed I would say the setup is pretty good. I would focus on the technique first.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Now that I can watch that on a computer, a few more things stand out.

 

1. There is a significant gap between the handle and hips. This is causing all the pull to come from the shoulders rather than the COM. Note how sometimes he pulls up with the trailing arm as he crosses the wakes. He needs to push his hips forward as part of gaining more leverage against the boat.

2. The tip is really high coming into his strong side and a little high coming into his offside. First cause is rear binding being too far back, kind of hard to tell from the video, but that looks suspect. Check the heel to heel distance and try to get it 1/2 to 3/4" longer than his foot (i.e. if his foot measures 10", make the heel to heel distance 10 1/2 to 10 3/4"). If that is ok, move both bindings forward.

3. He looks in the ballpark of 150 lbs. As long as he stays off AB's Crispy Crème diet, that ski size is good.

4. Fix #1 and 2 before making any other ski changes.

 

[Ilivetoski]

The ski is working fine. See how he is popping up and going airborne after he hits the first wake? To me that says that his chest and shoulders are not square to the boat and when he hits the first wake it is pulling him up and bringing the trailing shoulder over and making his whole body fold inside. Killing a ton of speed. Try working on technique before you fix what probably is not broken.

[gregy]

He's not getting the front of the ski in the water in the turn. Might be a related issue to mentioned crossing issues or ski setup, not sure. For comparison look at the Vapor skier videos of KC Wilson and Samantha Dumala, the water is braking in front of the front bindings in the turn. Samatha can't weigh much.

 

 

[jimbrake]

Thanks, all. We will be working on both his "connection" (hips up to the arms through and beyond the edge change) and his set up. @Bruce_Butterfield‌ - he's 5'10" and only about 135, but strong (he's the pole vaulter). He read all the comments and watched the Rossi video last night then told me he's really excited for his next practice set so he can work on his position through the wakes. This is stuff we've been working on already, but BOS has put more emphasis on it. He thought it was pretty cool that so many people on here would respond with help. He thanks you all, too.

[Chef23]

Holy crap is he lean. I have a 67" vapor coming for my son who is also 15 and is 5'9" and 170 lbs. I figured he was in between sizes but is growing. My son isn't as good as yours he runs mid 22 off at 36 although lately since we are done with tournaments we have been playing around with slower speeds and shorter lines.

 

Let us know how the next set goes.

[elr]

@jimbrake - has your son grown taller over the summer? My son is now 6'1" 135#s (same PB as your son) - he has grown 8-9 inches and only gained 10-15 lbs over the last two seasons and we've switched skis 3 times (64" 9700, 65.5" 9700, now on a 65.25 Goode XT with a weight range to 195#s). Whenever he got above the middle of the weight range for his ski he would start to regress untill we went longer. In fact, the first question Dave Goode asked when fitting a ski for him was - how tall? Just a thought - YMMV.

[jimbrake]

Hi @elr - he has grown some, but only an inch or so this year. He hasn't had any major growth spurts - just keeps cruising upwards. I doubt he needs bigger than a 65, yet. As a matter of fact the way he skis on the Vapor sometimes I wish it was a 64. Hopefully his positional corrections and binding move forward will get some more ski in the water.