Edge Change/Transition Question - Help Needed

[jdk99]

Just started skiing course last year and progressed through 15 off up to 15/34 pretty well until I blew out my ankle in July. One of the things that I see when comparing my video with good/great skiers is the appearance of the transition. You experienced skiers appear to shift you lower body outbound as you hit the first wake/midline. Conversely we newbies try to hold our lower bodies steady throught the wakes then do a quick edge change after the white water and mistakenly release the handle at the same time.

 

All that to ask: Is the lower body move that I am seeing in experts 1) a conscious/intentional move and, if so, how do I initiate that move OR 2) an unconscious/natural result of good body position and handle control?

 

Appreciate the input for us mere mortals.

[AdamCord]

The edge change / transition can't happen without speed. The slower you are going across the wakes the later it has to happen. Work on getting in good position (stand tall, hips forward, body forward and not on the tail of the ski). Then you can start getting more aggressive in your cut/move to the first wake. You do that and the edge change will happen earlier.

[Horton]

@jdk99‌ what @AdamCord‌ said plus your option #2 is correct

[ToddL]

+1 for @AdamCord 's comment. But one additional thing that seems to be true... Once you let the handle move up and out/away from your core, the ski will stop moving outbound and will start to move down course and/or start turning. Combine this fact with Adam's comment and you get the visual difference between -15 and longer under max speed and what one sees at shorter lines at max speed.

 

 

[ToddL]

The more advanced skiers generate more speed in the right direction from finish of the turn to the center-line of the boat's path. Thus, the edge change can begin earlier and smoother. As a result, the handle can stay in and connected to the center of mass. As a result, the ski can continue outbound and wide while maintaining sufficient speed and connection to the boat. As a result, ... you get the idea.

 

I see this all as building blocks of fundamentals of slalom.

 

1) Optimal Stack/stance - always (behind the boat resting, cut outbound, glide, turn-in, lean for gates, etc.)

2) Wide & confident gate with optimal stack/stance

3) early path into 1 ball gives you time to do things right and gives confidence

4) doing things right means no slack, no loss of body position after the apex of the turn

5) great position and connection at the finish of the turn means great stack/stance from 1 to center line

6) great wake crossing after 1 ball means early path into 2, etc.

 

Each item is the foundation for the next. If any one suffers, then next one will be exponentially harder, and everything after it will be a scramble or implode.

 

 

[ToddL]

It seems to me that any skier at any level can describe some passes that just seem so clean/easy. Those are ones where they have confidence because they come into 1 ball feeling like they have time to turn it well. This makes their approach into 2 ball confident for the same reason. This is true because for them, they have achieved the sufficient skill/technique on the items above for that pass. The building blocks make each sequential action better as in a positive spiral.

 

Once the skier get's to their hardest pass, they often are trying to figure out what needs to improve in order to consistently have that same great 1-ball / 2-ball experience. Once their technique and timing are optimized for that pass' 1/2 ball, their confidence goes up. When all three are present, the skier will begin running that pass.

 

Sometimes the missing ingredient is merely confidence. They just ski knowing that this is their hardest pass and become somewhat defensive and that impacts disrupts some element of their technique. This is also why I think running a shorter line length at a slower speed can be beneficial because it gives the skier time to optimize and build confidence about the line length.

[Than_Bogan]

Everything said above is absolutely true, and I'm really glad you asked the question because I think a TON of folks trying to get started in slalom try to emulate the timing of the best skiers, which is impossible until you've gotten proficient at emulating the body position of the best skiers.

[jdk99]

Many thanks for the comments guys.

 

So I found this Stisher video that addresses the issue. If you go to ~0:30 he discusses a subtle yet intentional hip move outward that commences the transition, emphasizing the need to keep the upper body quiet and arms in. This move is exactly what I am trying to clarify.

 

Watching -15 skiers coming into the wake, one sees static upper AND lower body, often resulting in getting pulled out at the second wake. For experienced skiers, one sees a static upper body but DYNAMIC lower body where it appears the hips/knees/ski are moving outbound more rapidly than the upper body generating an almost seated appearance coming off the second wake.

 

So what I am trying to figure out, assuming decent stack/position/acceleration, is the mechanism by which this occurs. I.E. do I use the building pressure from the acceleration phase to "shoot" the ski outbound with the hip move that Seth describes? Or do I just keep working on getting more speed with good position and this will happen automatically.

 

Appreciate you patience with the sophomoric questions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Horton]

@jdk99‌ until you are running 28 off or more I do not think you want to try any "move".

 

That more dynamic movement is the result of speed angle and load. At 15 off you are not creating those forces yet.

[Chef23]

@jdk99 I think @AdamCord‌ said much more clearly than I can what I believe. Beginning skiers don't generate enough speed and need to focus on holding their edge longer. 15 and 22 off skiers need to focus on their stack and holding that stack through the white water after the second wake. At 22 off you still have plenty of time to transition and turn. For most skiers that aren't running into 32 or 35 off their issues lie with the quality of their body position and they don't have the speed to finish their pull near the centerline or even the second wake.

[alex38]

This season I stayed at 28 off a lot just to try new techniques/moves.

 

My best was to keep it simple, get good position into first wake and get going (speed), then at second wake I would just think to myself: "keep upper body and core strong and aimed outbound off wake", this helped me eliminate a long time bad habit of looking for the buoy too soon. It felt like I was trying to twist away from the boat at the last second but I don't think I really was. This counter-intuitive "move" created space I've never really had before and never really even thought about the edge change.

 

When I was on with this, I could run 4-6 28's in a row that would feel like 15 off.

 

Also put my gate under the microscope and changed a couple things.

 

Also practiced counter-rotation alot.

 

It's great to have the time and facilities to experiment and break bad habits.

[Horton]

@alex38‌ Ahhh thank you. You just reminded me of another subject I need to start.

 

"Counter Rotation" the most miss understood concept in skiing or not?

[alex38]

Yes @horton, (not to break this thread but) I got to a point where I couldn't tell if I was purposely countering or was approaching apex already countered because of position at second wake. But that topic will start to get out of my league.

[Horton]

@alex38‌ Sounds like you are thinking down the right path. I will start a thread eventually or you can.

[ozski]

Good subject - I've been working on the hip move / transition as a conscious thing for the last couple of weeks but I agree its something that starts to come into play at -32 and shorter. I would classify this as a very minor tweak and its not something that is an overly aggressive move. Its something you should think of in terms of "letting it happen" rather than making it happen if that makes sense.

 

Currently on my gate at -35 its helping me get some really good and consistent starts (LFF) I think there are some positives to be had for my own skiing but everyone has their own set of technical issues.

 

You should be able to run -28 / -32 all day long before you start to put your head in this space, if you get it wrong then it can throw your timing out and / or drag you narrow. Its almost a by product of everything being executed correctly. I would bet if you post some video there will be other elements of your technique that I would give priority to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jdk99]

Thanks all. @ozski, I can guarantee there is plenty that needs work! I'll keep my head in those spaces for the time being. Appreciate everyone's input.

[ToddL]

@Horton @alex38 - @TFIN said it best: "Ideally, a counter-rotated position is a simple result, not an action."

http://www.ballofspray.com/home-v16/skiers-4/trent-f/1641-counter-rotation-by-frent-finlayson

 

True to Trent's comment, when I do things right from apex to center-line, the edge change is easier and I stay connected as a result. When I stay connected, I am counter rotated. I don't have to "do" anything extra.

 

I believe that everyone who claims to "do" something to counter-rotate is really "doing" something to prevent losing their pre-existing counter rotation.

[jdk99]

Ok, so the more I watch and read the more confused I get. Below is an abridged 2013 interview from Corey Vaughn posted on skiall6.com. This captures my confusion and experience to a T. Curious as to your thoughts.

 

“What do you believe is the biggest misconception in slalom ski theory?

 

The big misconception that I always hear has to do with wake crossings, specifically how long a skier (especially at 15 and 22 off) should hold his/her edge. “Lean through the second wake,” “hold your edge all the way through the wakes,” “don’t let off your pull behind the boat,” To the 15 off skier, all of these statements are entirely false

 

Ask any pro skier to run 15 off 30mph and I promise they won’t do any of the things mentioned above . As they edge up the first wake, they will keep their legs strong, they will ever so slightly start standing taller, beginning to de-weight the ski as they come off the crest of the first wake. They won’t bog themselves down by trying to keep their ski engaged in the water through the turbulent prop-wash and second wake. Those areas would only create drag and pull their good position apart.. If the skier is trying to keep the ski in the water through the middle or really give some oomph on the second wake they are likely compromising position on the first wake (squatting back, letting hands out and/or absorbing the wake with the knees/hips) in order to “stay on edge.”

 

if you watch any accomplished skier run 15 or 22 off, this is exactly what you will see: a series of 6 balanced pops and efficient transitions. Most struggling 15 off skiers have good enough body position to create this outward thrust off of the first wake but end up sacrificing the position because they think they need to go THROUGH the wakes”

 

 

Exemplary Stisher video 15/32:

 

 

[Chef23]

@jdk I am going to have to respectfully disagree with Corey who is a much more accomplished skier and coach than I am. I agree that Seth, Corey, @Horton and anyone that is capable of running 38 off will only work through the first wake at 15 and 22 off. The problem is that skiers learning how to run 15 off up to max speed and 22 off don't have the angle and speed out of the buoy that struggling 15 off skiers do. Watch Seth's position/angle out of 4 ball into 5. If struggling 15 off skiers could do that they wouldn't be struggling.

 

I know Corey addresses that but I don't agree with it. I think squatting back and the other things Corey talks about are a result of not finishing the turn properly and having a good stacked position when you get hooked up to the handle. The majority of struggling 15 off skiers I have skied/coached don't have good enough position to generate enough speed to ski the way Corey is advocating. Almost all accomplished skiers do.

[Than_Bogan]

Personally, I think one of the biggest misconceptions among pro skiers is that beginning slalom mortals can ski like them. :)

 

There are different ways to learn, and anybody who spends time at it will improve. But personally I'm very much on the same page as @Chef23 here.

[jdk99]

Reasonable counter argument. So @Than_Bogan and @Chef23, what would happen if Seth, Corey, or @Horton did hold their lean thru the 2nd wake or white water at 15 off? ...Would it not be that they would generate too much load resulting in getting pulled out? If so, could it not be that some 15 off guys ARE generating good position and acceleration out of the turn but in trying to hold their lean through 2nd wake (as advised by most) end up getting pulled out?

 

 

 

 

[Horton]

I sort of hate this. I have no idea what the holy hell Corey is talking about but the man runs 12 + balls than I do and is a highly regarded coach. I know there are times when a skier with a lower ball count knows a lot but generally the higher your score the more about the minutia you understand.

 

Corey has a point and I am going to assume it is valid I just do not understand it. I don’t really get it but I know he is a smart dude who runs into 41. Maybe he will chime in. I will ping him.

[Horton]

Scratch that. I can not find his email. Someone want to ping him?

[jdk99]

Sorry @Horton for stirring things up. To quote @A_B, "put a fork in me". I'll shut up and read with interest what others have to say.

[Horton]

@jdk99‌ no need to apologize. I am as confused as you are

[Ed_Johnson]

@jdk99....I believe you have asked some pretty insightful questions...My best recommendation would be to go to Charleston and ski with Seth..If you can't do that, you can send him a video and get video coaching from him...The 3rd choice would be to watch several of the video's he has posted along with the exercises he has posted. Get a Wakeye and good Camera, and work on that.

 

I believe you should not be long pulling through the wakes...Seth is an expert at proper COM movement, which is obvious in his videos..Strive to learn the proper staked position and proper COM movement..Learning to lead with COM is so important, and not leaning with shoulders and upper body.

 

A wise old instructor told me years a go that in Slalom skiing you have to strive for balance..One side of the course is used for acceleration and the other for deceleration...Seth's and TW's videos show this perfectly...Pulling long is not the answer and will only develop bad habits.

 

 

[A_B]

@Ed_Johnson‌ , @Horton‌ - I talked with Seth briefly this morning and he was going to try to check in tonight and share some things from his perspective on edge change, RC, etc...

 

Sure beats looking at the crappy weather outside huh?

[Horton]

This should be interesting

[ToddL]

My $0.02...

 

There are two conflicting elements in this discussion...

1) how typical beginners approach -15/-22, and

2) the most optimal way to ski -15/-22

 

These two things are in conflict in that most beginners don't have a sufficient foundation of technique to attempt #2. Yet, why in the heck would you want to learn how to do something the wrong way only to later have to unlearn that and relearn the correct way?

 

The answer lies with short term vs. long term rewards.

 

Pulling longer is only an option at longer lines and slower speeds, but it is an option. It will get a skier around buoys before he or she has sufficient technique to get their with only the optimal amount of wake crossing effort. It's like a crutch offset poor technique. It gives them the short-term rewards of rounding more buoys sooner. It develops confidence. It drives the addiction into the new skier.

 

However, I imagine that a beginner who is less focused on buoy counts and more focused on learning the right way to ski from the beginning will ultimately pass up the skier who has to unlearn the crutch technique. This skier starts out working on optimal technique and sees results in form vs. buoy count. This skier is not rewarded so quickly with buoys. But eventually, the technique is there and the skier advances quickly up the line. This skier likely doesn't know what all the fuss is about -28 since the technique to run that was learned correctly at -15/-22.

 

Both elements are separately correct. Each is a different path to progress. Each skier can determine which path to take.

[Horton]

Oddly insightful

[Chef23]

@jdk99 if Seth held his position through both wakes in that video he would have more speed than he needs. Seth being Seth could probably find a way to make it work but he gets plenty of width and speed to run 32/15 in that video the way that he does.

 

@ToddL I don't know that I see pulling longer as necessarily a crutch technique or mutually exclusive to learning proper technique. Part of the pulling longer progression is learning proper body position. That should be part of the learning curve while pulling longer. If two skiers are getting proper coaching working on the proper techniques I don't believe there is a downside to pulling long enough to get around buoys while learning.

 

If a skier is just scraping through buoys without improving technique I totally agree that a skier focused on learning proper technique will improve faster.

 

I think this is an interesting topic for mortals. Much of the dialogue on the site is about running 35 off and beyond and I believe there are a lot of skiers working on running -15 up to max speed on the site as well.

[Dano]

For what it's worth. I'm basically a beginner myself. Just getting back In The course after 5 years away. I can run -15 34mph with out any troubles. But my technique is still horrible. When I went to 22 off I suddenly had slack line and could barely get 2 balls. I had a friend take a few videos. Went home studied BOS until my eyes bled and figured out I was not getting wide enough for the gates, I was pulling way too long (past 2nd wake even), and my body position was wrong at every point. Went back out and worked on the those 3 things. First was to develop my stack. A few sets later, body position is much better, which created more angle and speed into the wakes. The edge change is happening sooner and effortlessly, and we're carrying more speed into the next ball with a tight rope. Now I'm skiing -22 successfully. I am not aware of doing any of the above mentioned "moves" to edge change. For me it feels like it just happens, especially when I've done everything else correctly.

[Horton]

I just re-read what Corey said and I am more on board.

 

The thing about that level of skiing is if you have a great stack and can stay still on the ski you would not be at that level. Or to say it differently- you are at that level because your stack (basic position) sucks. Do not be offended it is true but it will get better.

 

One reason to stay down through the wakes is because if you come off edge you are going to put your head and front knee together because you are already almost out of control. You all know what I mean.

 

An other reason is (again) your stack sucks so you do not have any speed or angle and you are never going to get to the other side.

 

Here is a video of me showing the Centurion wake at different speeds.

My stack is nowhere near Pro Skier level but by the time I get to 30 mph I have easily enough speed by the first wake.

 

[alex38]

@chef23 awesome point on pulling long, Ive always been skeptical about bringing it up. It is a great drill for me when I feel weak behind the boat, I'm sure I will advance to 35 and 38 soon. I am not going to do it like Seth, that would take me years on the water.

[bogboy]

Us skiers who got a late start in the course really appreciate this help and discussion. Thank you.

[ozski]

My understanding is the better a skier, any skier manages this space (wake to buoy) the more control they should have through the turn the better the setup for the next crossing and so it goes. The real debate appears to be around the proactive technical adjustments that may or may not help some skiers - just hitting a good stack might not mean an automatic controlled TW like transition. As the line gets shorter the way this space is managed becomes more critical, for my own skiing I think its a bit of a limiting factor and I'm prepared to keep an open mind and at least experiment with a few ideas.

[Horton]

@alex38 I am not 100% sure what you mean about not like Seth* but beyond 22 off or 28 off at 34 mph pulling past the second wake will do many bad things. If you really expect to play at 35 and 38 you can't pull past the center line. Well you can but it is bad.

 

(*I am sure you know that he is one of the most respected coaches in the sport)

[ToddL]

On pulling past the center line...

 

The key issue is that if a skier is generating any speed (pulling harder) past the center line, then the skier is generating down-course speed (bad). In it's extreme case, the skier has generated some slack and feels way too fast into the buoy. Those two things make for an extremely difficult (and often crappy) turn resulting in less than ideal position out of the turn, and so on.

 

The ideal is to be a passenger on the speed generated prior to the center line and skiing on an inside edge and riding the handle's width on a tight rope out to the buoy line. (see another Seth video below) This means you need sufficient cross course speed prior to the center line.

 

So when do I edge change?

What is subtle and happens in milliseconds when watching pros is "when" they stopped "pulling". To many who watch pro skiers, they see it as if the edge change doesn't happen until off the second wake. However, that is the completion of the edge change that is being witnessed. The edge change started just off the first wake and occurred from wake to wake.

 

A skier will increase his lean intensity as the boat's force increases. This is from hookup through white water to first wake. At the wake, the skier starts to decrease lean intensity while maintaining the ski's direction across the boat's path. This is where the edge change starts. The ski will start to move under (or across slightly in front of) the skier's upper body until it has rolled to the inside edge. All the while, the skier's upper body didn't really move much. It is still stacked and connected, but is now leaning away from the boat with less intensity. (Now they are headed into the often discussed reverse "C".)

 

Anyway, go back an watch the Seth and Horton videos above. When do you see them start to let off their lean? In some cases that even appears to be as early as at the first wake. In all cases above 30mph, their lean is less intense by the center line and non-existent past the second wake.

 

(Even at 26 -30, Horton just basically "lands" off the second wake on the leaning edge, but has already completed 90% of the edge change process by that point. There is only an minute amount of time before he is on the inside edge and gliding out bound to the buoy line.)

 

Seth's video on riding the handle out to the buoy line:

[Chef23]

@Horton I was just watching video of Mapple in the introduction to the T series videos and I can't say that he is pulling past the centerline at -41 but he certainly isn't changing edges behind the boat in the middle of the wake. It certainly looks like the ski hasn't changed to the new turning edge until the whitewater after the second wake. I have noticed this watching videos of top skiers as the line gets shorter. They certainly are off the gas early at -32 but by -39 and -41 it looks like they aren't changing edges so soon.

[Ed_Johnson]

@Chef23.....That is simply because at those really short line lengths the handle is way farther inside the buoy line, your stretching so much more to get the ski around the buoy, resulting in the hook-up being later and closer to the wakes...Since the hook-up is later, the edge change is slightly later as the line gets shorter because you still have to get stacked, load, etc.

[gt2003]

You all are killing me with these topics! Haven't even ran the course yet, much less found out for sure where it is on the lake. Looks like it will be the winter of learning! Loving the site so far. Watching videos and reading more tonight. Thanks for the site Horton

[Horton]

@Ed_Johnson‌ I respectfully disagree with every word of your last post.

 

Or I totally miss understand what you are saying

[alex38]

@Horton‌ yes I should rephrase as never as "well" as Seth, like never ever.

[Ed_Johnson]

WOW, 2 disagree flags from @Horton and @Than_Bogan...Let me re-explain for you Guys....On your opening 32 off pass you are wider on the course and the buoy than you are at 39 off...Your handle is farther from the wakes, the boat, and the buoy. Once you get to 38 off the handle will no longer reach the buoy, therefore you are leaning farther into the course...At 39 even farther, so you are stretching more to get the ski around the buoy...So it is obvious that when you finish the turn at 39 versus 32, you are farther inside the course, therefore, closer to the wakes..The time it takes you to get stacked, load, and cast out is virtually the same at 32 as it is at 39..Since the time is the same, the distance traveled would be close to the same...Now since you hooked up closer to the wakes at 39, than you did at 32, and the time from hook-up to cast out, and distance traveled is similar, this moves the edge change point farther into the course.

Just look at a video of Nate from 32 to 41 off..The point of edge change keeps moving from first wake at 32 off to centerline at 38 or 39 off..This is what I was trying to explain to @Chef23 in answer to his question..It's simple Physics, I would have thought Than would have understood that...I hope this helps.

[ToddL]

@Horton be like...

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8kqn2TTW71r9vi6po4_250.gif

[Ed_Johnson]

Now thats funny....May be better than a Panda !!!!!!

[gregy]

I'd consider myself a 15off skier even though at times I've consistently gotten into 28off, even a tourn. PB into 32off back in the 36mph days. But now days I spend most of my time at 15off. Last summer while coaching with AM he must of told me 10 times to do all my work between the ball and first wake. I had only skied a few times since knee surgery and definitely rusty and pulling long. When I'm skiing my best I try to edge change coming off the wakes and I've had a lot people comment on how smooth and easily it looks when this is happening.

 

To someone at the very beginning level of learning the slalom course this concept of a early edge change may cause some to give up on their pull to early. @toddl what do you think, you coach a lot of beginner?

 

Person A learning the course that's atheletic and a good skier you might want to coach more of a "pro" style. Where as Person B that's really struggling and not holding the edge much with bad body position you might learn quicker by telling them to pull through the wakes to help them to learn better body position.

 

 

[gregy]

As for short line lengths, I've had several really good skiers tell me as the ropes get shorter the work area gets smaller. When I watch videos of Nate really nailing 41off his transition doesn't look much different than the his longer line passes. I think when any of us get to our hardest passes (or in scramble mode) bad habits start cropping up, for pros it just at 39 or 41 off. So they may pull to long etc.

[rab]

I am finding the topic of how long a 15 off skier should stay on the line very interesting because I experienced this issue over the summer. I am a struggling 15 off skier and in the beginning of the summer I would wheelie out of every buoy and had a pretty terrible stack. Since I had all of my weight on my back foot I had to pull past the second wake to get to the buoy. This worked and I was able to ski into 32mph this way. Over the summer I worked on my stack and getting weight off my back foot. Once my form improved my buoy count actually went down. The problem was that I was still pulling way past the second wake and I was coming into the buoy too fast and with no time for my edge change. Once, another skier told me to stop pulling so long my buoy count started to improve again.

 

So, I guess what I experienced was that pulling past the second wake can allow a beginning skier have fun and get buoys but I probably would have started correcting my bad form earlier and faster if I had been told from the beginning to not pull so long.

[A_B]

Not sure of the date of this article, but will assume it is valid for at least beginner to mid shortline levels.

 

https://www.usawaterski.org/pages/Instructional%20Articles/Slalom/ProperEdgeChange.pdf