Is "staying connected" or "keep the line tight" misleading or misunderstood terms?.

[Wish]

So I've been thinking about a swing set and the analogy of the pendulum affect and how it works. And how we work with the tow rope to do the same. The buzz words of stay "connected off the second wake until your reach" or "keep the line tight" may not be the best way to go about explaining what is needed for a tight line. It may send the wrong message.

 

If you remove the swing set seat, raise the chains and attach a ski handle, you may be able to picture what I'm saying. So your instructed to get to the highest points you possibly can on both ends of the pendulum of this new fashioned swing. You even get to step off a ladder at one end to start the process. You have a choice. A tall 12' ladder or a short 8' one. Obviously you choose tall knowing your closer to the top of the pendulum at one end, getting you closer and sooner to the top at the other end vs what the 8 footer will get you. You have another choice to move the ladder back until the swing chain is tight as you stand on top, or move it close and have a little slack in the chains. Obviously you chose the tight line as slack will kill momentum and probably lengthen your arms. So off you go.... as you head to the bottom of the pendulum you keep everything tight as the G forces increase. On the up swing, you stay long in both arms and legs and you push your lower body in front of your upper to pump or load the line to push you higher then the normal static swing would take you. You let the transition from going one direction to the other happen with little to no body movement. At no time between the bottom of the swing pendulum and the top did you pull on the handle with your arms and bring your body closer to the handle. As a matter of fact, you did just the opposite to get high on both sides. Your still connected, the line/chain is still tight and you continue to achieve higher and higher positions in the swing.

 

When we say "stay connected", or "keep the line tight", I have a feeling we lose the swing affect. Staying connected does not mean keeping your line tight by manipulating the bodies relationship to the handle. It means allowing and riding the swing to take the body away from the handle, separating from it and becoming an extension of it to reach that top end of the pendulum affect. If your pulling on the handle to change edge, get up on top of the ski, keeping the line tight, or getting that staying connected feeling, you may be selling yourself way short of how wide, or in the swing set case how high, you could actually be. I guess what I am saying is pay attention to what "connected" or "tight line" actually means. Are you "doing" something to make that happen or are you allowing the pendulum affect to take place? As for the ladder, choose the tall one...aka....get higher on the boat in your pull out and don't allow slack in the line during the glide. Thoughts...

[ToddL]

I'm just worried that I'm gonna hear on the evening news about some Baller at a play ground with a 12' ladder and a ski handle.

 

But seriously, makes sense.

[JAS]

Watch this video, enlightening !

 

[Wish]

About 2:40 into it was my point....

 

@JAS ..perfect

[Wish]

Referencing the video...

 

I think the shortening of the string and load would be the ski being between your hips and the boat and the lengthening is the ski and your center of mass casting out from under you and away from the handle in the pre turn and turn essentially becoming a longer extension of the swing string. Then it goes back to shortening the string/loading as your ski gets between you and the boat again at the wakes. So if in the edge change phase and out to the ball, you are not allowing the separation and the physics of the swing force to cast your COM and the ski out, you are not lengthening the string after you have shortened and loaded it and getting the full swing of the rope and you as an extension creating width. In fact, you are doing much harm by holding yourself to the rope and staying with the rope..aka.."staying connected" or "keeping a tight line" and you wind up being narrow...perhaps still early but narrow.

[Wish]

@skibrain think about the rope as on long solid rod and you as an extension or second rod hinged to it. The two together in working swing harmony does simulate the shortening and more importantly the lengthening of the rope as you become a extension of the swing (triangulate the chains). So you are correct if you take the skier out of the equation. The rope is not a rubber band that propels you outbound simply by loading it. Swing and centrifugal force do the work to get wide as we manipulate the length by being the COM weight at the very end and use ourselves to lengthen the line so to speak.

[Deep11]

Winter must be over - more theory posts - love it, thanks @wish !

 

Re: the injection of energy needed, increasing the "weight" on the end of the line will certainly increase the energy if applied at the correct moment - seems to me that from this discussion and the video, the correct point would ideally be as the down swing starts, and anywhere from the midline on is counter productive.

The realistic optimum then is actually further out than most skiers are currently working on?

[AdamCord]

I have to disagree with the professor in that video. The important shortening of the pendulum happens AFTER the centerline. If you think of the swing as symmetrical (which it's not in skiing, but if we are talking strictly pendulums here), decreasing the arm length just before centerline and then lengthening it right after centerline adds nothing to the system. No energy will go into the system at all. The only way to add energy is to shorten the pendulum on the up swing.

 

 

[Wish]

To be fare to the professor, I think he was actually talking about a swing set and how it works. I do not think he would have the same description of swing energy in the clip @AdamCord posted that does not use chains or sting like in his model. Would be very cool to put him in the boat and explain our swing and I'm sure it would be a third and different explanation of how and where the swing energy is created. All I know is when I ride the swing off the second wake, better things happen. When I try to force anything other then the natural swing and then becoming an extension if it, it's just hard work.

[Cayman2]

I'm In th opposite camp from wish. The guy on adamcord's swing is increasing the moment arm by squatting during the gravity and centripetal force aided portion of the swing. Then standing up shortens the arm. Conservation of angular momentum says that puts dtheta into the system. As does yanking in on the rope right when the pull is going away after second whitewater. Watch every high end skier. near elbow is always bent at least 90 before the far hand lets go. But, if you yank in AND hunch over the rope you be done.

[Horton]

my takeaway is that swing sets and pendulums are only vague analogies to what we do.

[Cayman2]

Mine too

[Wish]

Yes.. But trying to point out that we do get and should get cast outbound and we use the swing of the rope to get it done. Pulling in to keep the line tight or staying connected may negate the swing affect.

[Horton]

@Wish Yes pulling IN on the rope is not the idea but you do need to keep the distance between the handle and your center as close as possible as long as possible.

[Wish]

Yes yes we are saying the same. but do we all interpret what the buzz phrases are the same?. My guess is no. Understanding there is a swing element that assists in width may help with understanding that being connected as long as possible is not just keeping the distance between your center and the handle. There's just more going on then "staying connected". I can stay connected and easily kill the swing and width.

[Ed_Johnson]

@Wish...I believe what you are saying is when you load you are compressed, the shortening of the string, thus building your momentum, and after you edge change, you are releasing the built up momentum you created, to carry the ski out to it's widest point, thus lengthening the string, and keeping the line tight, moving you further up on the boat.

[JAS]

Looks like there may be more than one way to make a swing , swing. The same seems to apply to waterskiing.

http://www.physicsinsights.org/up_in_a_swing.html

[Lieutenant Dan]

I'd be very interested to hear what @Than_Bogan would have to say about this thread. It's been sooooo long since I've studied physics / dynamics but my guess is that it is not so much about shortening the string as it is about adding energy to the system. By pulling down on the string the Prof is adding a new force which is causing an effective increase in the tension of the string which causes an additional acceleration. I'm with @skibrain re his first post in this thread, I think the key takeaway for me is that the timing of adding this force is key, i.e. load late and get off it late. For those of us who are impatient in the turns, this is something to really think about

[Than_Bogan]

A bit late to the party, but:

 

I agree with the principle of getting higher on the boat, which is (just like a swing) a form of potential energy: You cannot build cross-course speed without starting from a high point, so in effect you are unleashing that potential energy when you turn for the entrance gate.

 

I disagree with continuing to use a stationary swing as an analogy when talking about "staying connected." There are many ways that this analogy breaks down. One important one is that a swing with a high amplitude experiences some very complicated dynamics and then Weird Shit (pardon the overly technical terminology) happens, such as the rope curling and the mass becoming closer to the attachment point. I'm pretty sure we don't want to emulate any of that when we're out there at high amplitude!

 

But I think the most fundamental divergence between slalom and swing, at least as it relates to the topic at hand, is the fact that the boat is constantly moving. If we attach our swing to some sort of rocket, then maybe we can get some more similar physics. But otherwise, the analogy breaks down pretty thoroughly right at the point where we try to work on "staying connected" -- getting high on the boat but not yet ready to release and increase our effective rope length.

 

At that point, there is a real danger that the boat "gets away from you" -- it is continuing to travel forward but you are naturally beginning to decelerate (both because of your change of direction and drag). It is critical at this moment that the boat continue to pull you forward, otherwise you can lose a ton of speed and badly stall at the turn.

 

For anybody who has skied 35 and shorter (and maybe many others as well), we've all felt that stall when we release too soon. That's the result of failing to get the necessary pull forward from the boat at the critical moment on the way out. For THAT part of the discussion, I don't see a swing analogy as being very helpful.

 

But as always, any way of thinking about it that gets you buoys is a valid way of thinking about it!!

[Horton]

@Than_Bogan 1000000% agree

[GaryWilkinson]

I believe @Than_Bogan s thought that the swing set comparison doesn't really apply because the boat is moving forward makes it different is sound.

 

I see it as almost a race forward in the course between skier COM and the boat in relation to the slalom buoy.

 

Our advantage over a swing set is that we can get as wide as possible and as much as necessary, to be able to build speed, angle and thus momentum on 1 ball. Our original in-turn (cross-cut) for 1 ball builds speed and momentum right thru the arc behind the boat and depending on body position, past center line to course width if so chosen. While not ideal due to timing and over speed problems, we can continue to have, (let's say preserve) speed and momentum past the centreline.

 

(Seth Stisher's ipad explanation in YouTube shows this beautifully)

 

With a great and appropriate amount of speed and momentum built coming into clean, (not white water or boat spray) water surface, keeping the handle in tight and elbow at hips does a couple of things:

 

1) I think it keeps the line tension or connection at COM. This in fact keeps us in balance while maintaining desired ski angle at desired locations course-wise. Poorly said, but let's just say that in the absence of line tension from a decent out-bound trajectory and elbow to hip connection pre-buoy, you have slight, or no line tension which for me can result in slack line, an off balance turn and edge change which produces and over or under load ski angle and body position coming out of the turn.

 

2) I also believe that having that line tension and elbow to hip connection pre-buoy delays, or should I say maintains speed and out-bound momentum (inertia?) to a point that allows skier to get wide and high enough on the boat to reach the ball in control.

 

I learned a long time ago from Andy that as soon as your handle has moved away from your body, you have effectively committed to the turn. This results in a flat ski, slowing of speed and lost of momentum, too early a reach and stalled ski, broken waist, OTF fall, bad attitude and diminished confidence, but I digress.

 

One of the biggest things I realized as a benefit of the pre-ball yank or line tension has given me is the connection to the boat which really really helps balance and setting of ski angle during the critical edge change time. When I lay off early, stop cutting, lose stacked position too soon, stand up and glide in the white water, my ski is flat for too long, the buoy seems narrow and my trajectory x-course is lost.

 

This whole point was reinforced by KC last October in FL when we spent a full morning working on timing and intensity of the outbound cut, turn and cross cut trajectory for just 1ball.

 

Both coaches encouraged us to get wide, build line pressure in stacked position and keep edging wider (at least for me and the 2 Pierre's) enroute to 1 ball And to keep the handle I until last second where the reach will allow less tension on the line, body and ski then move forward and come around appropriately to set the new edge and x-course angle. With a good reach at the right time your body is also setup to be able to take the hit from the boat after the buoy.

 

Trying to do this without wide® course line tension is I believe much more difficult.

[Wish]

I guess my point was not to say we are on a swing set or get into the physics of why it is or is not (man did that take a turn on me) but rather the terms might be misleading that we use. "Staying connected" or "keeping a tight line". Both necessary but pulling in on the handle to do this can have adverse affects and can kill momentum outbound as would pulling yourself up to the handle on the upswing in the swing device I described. That's why I pin pointed 2:40 in the professors vid (and run till 3:00). The rest of his vid does not really apply in my head all that well if at all. Probably should a said that earlier. There is swing energy we are playing with here. Looking to use it to it's max and not do anything to counter act what is happening.

 

@Than_Bogan rocket to a swing set...the visual made me laugh.. thanks. And really do not disagree with anything you said.

[Than_Bogan]

Darn -- I, too, have botched the physics. Or at the very least I need to "clarify":

 

If the entire system is translating at a constant speed (in addition to the relative movements), then the physics are unchanged. Indeed, this is happening to all of us right now as we hurdle through space.

 

BUT the water and the air are NOT moving with the rest of the system, so that dynamic is the "fundamental divergence" that I spoke of. And the point I was trying to make is roughly correct.

 

Damn physics is hard.

[Cayman2]

The pendulum thing falls apart for me because in a pendulum Gravity is always pulling down. In a ski we change the direction of "apparent " gravity by everything we do on the ski. Essentially, we are training and learning and trying to create something that behaves as far from a classic pendulum as possible. So I guess understanding pendulum physics might be helpful, but it seems understanding how 43 varies from a pendulum is more important.

 

Or just pull harder. Hell, I don't know.

[rawly]

Here is the swing thread. Knew it was hashed out recently.

[sunvalleylaw]

As a consumer of instructive material and not a 35 off skier, I don't get the swing analogy too much, but used to use the pendulum analogy a lot as I learned it from the old +/- 1990 Suyderhoud/Lapoint video. As I was reading this article, http://ballofspray.com/home-v16/tech-articles-mainmenu/87-what-the-heck-is-handle-control , and how the edge change should happen naturally and automatically as a result of the good handle control as described by the article, I was thinking about how I would have to re-think my mental imagery from that old video and the pendulum analogy. Not that there is not some pendulum still happening, but the focus for me will need to be more on keeping that handle in and controlled rather than opening up as soon as i have in the past. So it seems to me the pendulum analogy is less useful for me at this point.

[sunvalleylaw]

Follow up to this. As I move away from focus on the pendulum analogy, which to me relates somewhat to the swing set analogy, toward more focus on position, arms and elbows on/near the vest and handle control, and the edge change happening automatically, I want to make sure that the timing has not changed too much. In my mind, it still seems that if on the given line length the edge change is happening after crossing the second wake and in the vicinity of the white water off that wake, the same timing is still true. Last time I skied, I was playing with holding the handle in longer and was coming in hot to the ball (imaginary in my case as I don't have course access right now), and getting slack that I normally do not get with my old pendulum focus. I think in trying to "control" the handle I was pulling in past the wakes and screwing up my timing.

 

EDIT: re-reading the handle control article and I think I see what I was missing. I think in attempting to keep the handle in, I was delaying the edge change too long. The two need to happen together, or more accurately, the fact that I am keeping the handle in longer does not mean I change when I allow the edge to change. That may take some work for me to learn to do without releasing the handle.

[andjules]

As others have noted, the pendulum/swing is a very complexly-imperfect analogy (to skiing). But here's a possible answer to what we mean by 'staying connected':

 

Gravity is the very smooth and consistent force applied in a pendulum experiment. We don't use gravity, we use the boat and leverage: the ski and rope (against the water passing by as the boat tows us) form a complex, 'dual-fulcrum' relationship to manipulate the force that gravity would contribute in a swing set. It's not as smooth as gravity in a pendulum experiment, but (as @Wish is suggesting) like a kid on a swing set, we employ our bodies to manipulate the forces in the system. I'd posit that the techniques we're all trying to learn are about manipulating these forces to our advantage.

 

So 'staying connected', perhaps, is about how we manage the post-centerline part of that strange dual-fulcrum relationship we're manipulating. Correct me if I'm wrong (quite likely), but I think we've found that changing the ski's edge (one fulcrum/leverage point) relatively quickly seems to work well in combination with easing our lean against the rope (second fulcrum/leverage point) more slowly. That can be a particularly hard move for our brains to coordinate, and 'staying connected' is our shorthand reminder to think about doing a controlled (slower) release of the pressure our arms/core are holding with the rope/handle.

 

Forgive me if I just made things worse ;-)

[sunvalleylaw]

^^^

@andjules , no. I think I get what you are saying. The thing for me will be how to digest that down to a new way of visualizing it in my mind, and hopefully experiencing some, then over time, all of the sensations of the dual move successfully in my mind, rather than get out there and try to think about all this as I am skiing. It will be a process. Suyderhoud's/LaPoint's pendulum is not necessarily wrong for this purpose for me. Will just have to be modified for a new approach on the upper fulcrum. For me, that means more controlled release, keeping the arms closer to the vest longer, with much better counter. There are some ways of looking at it in the handle control article I will play with and focus on that, and not really change too much about the edge change part, keeping the timing more or less the same. I will see how that works out and go from there. I am sure once I get some vid in to CP, he will help me right away on it.

[andjules]

@sunvalleylaw this is fun stuff to think about, but—from one over-thinker to another—I don't believe we need to fully understand the system to get good at skiing. Every once in a while, we do something a little different with our muscles and find ourselves a little earlier or a little wider or... and then we try to practice whatever we did, cement it, etc. No physics degree required.

[sunvalleylaw]

@andjules , yeah, I can be totally guilty of overthinking if I let myself be. Especially with changing a move. As both a lawyer and a certified snow ski instructor, I can really over analyze stuff. But the key for both my teaching and my own understanding is taking the understanding and digesting it down to a simple cue or visualization, and letting go and just doing it.

[Razorskier1]

Several things I was told this spring make a lot of sense to me. First -- "you should have two hands on the handle, be on top of your ski, and be outside the buoy". Second -- "create and maintain proximity between your hips and the handle". Third -- "let the boat pull you and ski the speed of the boat". For me each of these things are similar, and they all result in keeping the line tight.

 

Andy Mapple once told me speed isn't the enemy, speed downcourse is. What does that mean? Well, you can go as fast as you want across the course, because as long as the line is tight, your downcourse speed is identical to the boat. If you release that speed and point the ski down the lake, however, you will be faster than the boat and will have tons of slack when you want to turn. Now, not all of us can control that much cross course speed without accidentally turning it into downcourse speed (getting ahead of the boat). When you watch Nate ski what you realize is that he is always at boat speed (vertically down the course), allowing him to turn where he wants, when he wants, with a tight line.

 

I think for us mere mortals the most difficult aspect of maintaining a tight line is our inability to stay connected and "away from the ball" as we approach.

 

One last thing. I was told this spring that drivers can "feel Nate slowing down". Hmmm. That means he is maintaining the proximity of his handle to his hips throughout the transition, thus staying at boat speed, and letting the boat pull him to the ball. Food for thought.

[sunvalleylaw]

^^^

@Razorskier1 , makes sense except for your third initial point, "be outside the buoy". I guess my question is when is this true. Surely it cannot be that one is keeping both hands on the handle until one is all the way out past the buoy?? Is it? I would think that one would still release the handle with the outside hand once the ski transitioning out from the body starts to pull that outside hand and shoulder out of counter. Or has that changed too? Mind blowing up right now. :smile:

[Razorskier1]

@sunvalleylaw -- if you can keep handle proximity you can definitely still have two hands on and be at width. Now, you won't be "at the ball" (at least I hope not). You will be early of the ball with space, but at width with two hands on still close to your body. If you have two hands on and are letting your arms go out toward the boat (and as a result your ski swing out from under you) you have an issue. Watch the Nate replay on the MB Open. Even at 39 off he is not letting his ski swing out from under him -- he's on top of it at the apex, and taller than any other skier. This is, I think, the result of his ability to keep his handle close and keep his feet under his body longer and better than the rest of us.

[Razorskier1]

Watching the first few women they do a great job letting the boat pull them to width rather than what we hacks sometimes do, which is attempting to fling ourselves to width.

[sunvalleylaw]

Wow, ok. This is going to be a big change in movement pattern. I need to go study some vid, Nate and otherwise, to digest. Vid and visualize rather than think. Maybe I can find some vid of the example skier in the handle thread too. The trouble with watching super short line lengths such as Nate's runs is that that is harder (for me) to translate down to my longer line world. Maybe I can find some vid of training runs or earlier runs Nate is running like 32 or 35 off to study as well.

[The_MS]

You have to ski faster each time you shorten the line, eventually going faster then the boat.

[gt2003]

@sunvalleylaw ,

 

@Horton has a video on youtube of him running 15 off from 26mph-36mph I think (keeps both hands on handle at 15 off except for last buoy, REALLY?). It amazes me how easy it is for him when I struggle so much with body position/stack/staying stacked through the wakes right now. It's fun learning though. Can't wait until 15 off is easy as well!

 

[Razorskier1]

@MS - don't confuse faster cross course with faster down the course. Andy always told me to get across course as fast as you can, just make sure that speed is going across, not down the course. As long as the line is tight your down course speed is very similar to the boat speed. Said differently, the boat is creating your speed, you are not.

[sunvalleylaw]

One of my other focuses will be to learn to keep the line tight but light. My 80's/90's approach was to get a decent leveraged stack going then have a good progressive, but hard pull across the wakes to generate speed, letting up past the second wake for edge change, etc. I understand I have some un-learning to do there.

[Razorskier1]

@sunvalleylaw -- I've been trying to unlearn that same thing for years. Before slalom courses Dad always said we should try to stop the boat. That isn't a helpful construct for skiing a slalom course with Zero Off!

 

If it helps, what has helped me is to let the center of my chest face the pylon. This evens the load between both arms and keeps me from digging my shoulder in and overloading the line. As a result, I keep the handle controlled and in proximity to my hip better and longer because I'm no longer creating so much line tension off of one shoulder.

[sunvalleylaw]

@Razorskier1

 

Here is a link to a vid I found of Nate at 32 off, POV with chest cam.

 

 

Kinda helps me get the idea a bit, and particularly, I can see what the ski is doing BEFORE the hand comes off the handle. If I can just get that edge change going first and keep control of the handle until after edge change as a start, that will be something to build on and refine in terms of timing. Now I need to get on the water and play with it. I say play with it intentionally. As in my snow skiing, it is best to keep things playful rather than make it work of some kind. Skiing is supposed to be fun after all!

[gt2003]

@sunvalleylaw Link please??

[The_MS]

I guess in the end its a 16.95

[sunvalleylaw]

@gt2003 , it did not show? It showed as a vid for me.

 

 

 

And if none of those work, type https://www. then add youtube.com/watch?v=kHX5tozBj7Q

 

[gt2003]

It didn't the 1st time but it's there now. Probably a work computer issue!

Thanks, good vid!

[gregy]

@sunvalleylaw as far as handle control there are some like nate and asher that keep the handle very quiet, not a lot of movement. On the other hand you see skiers like Terry Winter, Seth Stisher, Horton in the 15off video that have a more deliberate pull in of the handle.

 

This is some what advance but your thinking about it so I highly recommend reading this thread if you haven't already.

http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/12232/i-found-this-very-interesting-terry-winter-transition/p1

 

One thing I've notice with all top level skiers is that the handle stays between them and the boat at all times (except a little at the reach). I think this is really important, otherwise the boat can steering down course.