New Turn Markers Brainstorm Thread

[ToddL]

So, @MarcusBrown commented "how about we change the effing turn markers into something that is safer than anything so far, AND easier to judge??!!!"

 

So, if you could build a better turn "ball" or "marker" what would it be? What features would it have? How would it be safer? How would it be easier to judge?

[ToddL]

Here's my crazy idea... some sort of soft pole style of marker (not quite a swim noodle (unsafe), but similar) that is less than 25cm tall. Contains a sensor which determines when the skier passes by it crossing the outbound pane and changes a color indicator (yellow) on top to indicate 1/4 buoy, then can sense when a skier passed by on the inbound pane and changes another color (green) to indicate a 1/2 buoy score. At this point it is just a concept. Not sure how to actually accomplish this, but with sensors these days... why not!?!

[Than_Bogan]

@ToddL One challenge of such an approach is maintaining the direction of the sensors. However, every marker has two buddies (aka same-side markers) that can help it recalibrate as often as needed. If you are pointing at your buddies, and they at you, then you know where the 1/4 and half lines must be.

 

Unfortunately, that data might not be enough because of the "don't significantly displace" rule. But maybe that goes away under this new idea anyhow.

 

The biggest challenge of almost any "interesting" proposal is converting over all the existing courses!

[webbdawg99]

That's not the only thing that got whacked! I'll just say it was painful. I guess if I was skiing a shorter line, that would be a non-issue. Oh well.

[A_B]

Maybe attach a transponder unit right in front of the front binding that senses where the ski goes around a magnetic object in the buoy. Some tech junkie could work on it.

 

Down course video with zoom could also tell if the ski gets around or inside a buoy. From the video I saw, it appears that the majority of the ski was on a path inside the buoy line, so it should have been easy to see from a down course zoomed in camera. Top money events would need video down both buoy lines as well as down center course for boat.

[MattP]

@ToddL no more technology please!

[Stevie Boy]

I do not know the logistics or the cost but if they can tell if a Tennis ball is in or out, that is travelling at quite a speed, can similar technology work for water skiing.

[PurdueSkier]

I understand the idea of no more technology, and I agree. So first lets state that this is wouldn't apply to C tournaments. In those cases, make a judgment call and move on. For record tournaments, instead of trying to watch the turn marker, why can't we just watch the ski? These courses are already surveyed in. It would be easy to relate the exact location of the course and all turn markers to a real world location. Then mount one of these to each ski http://www.xensr.com and overlay the path onto the course on a computer. I don't know how accurate those GPS pucks are, so that could derail the idea. This would add new technology, but then could get rid of some other existing cameras and recorders.

[oldjeep]

Snow ski breakaway gates and lots of padding. We hit them at well over waterski speeds so they must be safe ;)

[A_B]

Ok, why not have a pylon mounted video camera that can be reviewed? I know it is fast in real life, but it is pretty easy to slowmo and freeze frame the pylon video for buoys.. just saying.

This is a 41 pass of Nate from pylon mount froze at one ball. Easy to see the orange buoy on the correct side of the ski. Not all tourneys need this, just majors or "big" money events.

 

 

[mwetskier]

um i have buddies who complain that overtons buoys used to be under $4. good luck recovering r & d money on the sensor activated led buoys.

[A_B]

I am convinced that pylon video mount and review if needed is the way to go. Enough good hardware out there and not that expensive for a Region to have for the big events. You only need to review it if the judges can't determine in real time. Would have cleared up the Masters issue in a few minutes. But think it needed to be cleared up before Nate jumped in the water.

[ToddL]

LOL, @webbdawg99!

 

I was thinking only 1-foot tall markers to avoid unnecessary slap risks, at least for the average skier...

[andjules]

@A_B isn't answering the original post (can we design a better buoy?) but I think he's nailed it as far as the simplest solution to judging whether the ski has gone inside or outside a ball/gate. Pylon mounts are pretty cheap, high-frame rate cameras are pretty cheap. I agree with @MattP that that less technology is better, especially at our practice lakes (re redesigned buoys), but as for as top-level tournaments, a pylon mount camera ought to be simple and way less expensive than end-course boat-path video, on a per-tournament basis.

[ToddL]

The fun of brainstorming is going way out there with ideas. The sensor LED idea is just that.

 

I think too much tech is an issue, too. I also agree with not appropriate for C. Heck, how about not appropriate unless Pro or Cash on the line.

 

But, let's keep the ideas coming. The key is to not be limited by the idea that it must be a round buoy above the water.

 

The challenge was safer and easier to judge.

[kstateskier]

Could a drone with an HD video camera fly over each skier providing a birds eye view? Surely that could work for the 5-6 skiers in each event at a pro (money) event?

[Waternut]

In my mind the goal is a clear visual representation of where the buoy is for skier and judging purposes with very minimal surface area at the water line to prevent skier related injuries.

 

My thought is a submerged buoy 5-10" below the surface with a soft flexible stick and a smaller softball sized foam ball sitting a few inches out of the water. This allows clear visual representation of the buoy and if the skier went around it since it's not being overshadowed by the wake at the gates, glare in the course, or reflection off the water. Obviously there is still a reflection but it's displaced from the actual buoy so it's easier to distinguish. During times of the day when glare is an issue, this idea would cast a shadow making it easier to distinguish the buoy from small wind chop.

 

If you hit it with your hip or leg, you'd just knock it over instead of displacing it like a normal buoy. If you run over it, you'd also only knock it over instead of it displacing your ski which is quite painful.

[ToddL]

@Waternut's idea is a good start! What if, the flexible stick was hinged such that a strike in an outbound direction would cause some indication? The logic is that an outbound strike on the marker was likely not a valid rounding of the marker, where a down course strike is likely a glancing blow while rounding it. This is hard to put into words, but I hope you are getting what I am suggesting.

 

One thought is a pivot point on the "stick" which triggers an indicator when the stick is hit from an outbound direction...

 

There are plenty of criticisms of this concept...

Is an outbound strike of the marker really a missed buoy?

With an indicator, then the marker has to be reset... so delays there.

[thompjs]

I was TC at Utopia tournament and turned in WR application for Regina that ultimately did not pass. We had HD (expensive) camera in boat and took recording off the chip. Picture was extremely clear and focused. Judges at tournament said she cleared the buoy, IWWF didn't think so. No WR. So even with that it is often judgement call on displacement.

 

They did have boat video at Masters since it was R event, but they were looking at wireless transmission that was probably 640X480 with snow interference.

 

Glad I was not judging at Masters. Sounds like a tough call.

 

 

[A_B]

I don't know why a video feed into an iPad or smart tablet couldnt be used in a matter of minutes by the boat judge. The boat judge would make the final call if there is non-agreement with the towers. Going for video streaming etc would just be ridiculously expensive and time consuming. You wouldnt need to keep a Brazilian gigs of data, as once a skiers score is in the books, it's done, delete after each group. Next skier.

[bishop8950]

Seems line you could have a flexible and soft gate sticking up a foot max. Lightweight and safe so you could run it over but hopefully would be easy to see if you got your ski around it.

 

I have skied tall noodles and got punched in the nuts a few times. No thanks!

[DefectiveDave]

I agree, higher quality video is probably the way to go for judging. With respect to safety, I've got nothing. I was under the impression that newer buoys are much softer than they used to be?

 

Anyhoo, the video used to judge the masters finals was apparently wirelessly transmitted to shore and of low quality due to compression, etc. (source FWinter). Even without new hardware, wouldn't having a boat-stored copy of higher quality solve the issue?

[A_B]

@OB - I am saying give the video call to the boat judge, not pipe it up to onshore judges. The video could stay in the boat. The rules would need to change. If you can't tell from the pylon video, it goes to the skier.

[Ilivetoski]

You would think a video camera in the boat would be enough to make sure someone got outside of a buoy..

[DefectiveDave]

So going back to the original topic "turn markers brainstorming". I'll start out by defining the requirements as noted by others in this thread:

 

Functional

Visible

Safe

Low Maintenance

Cheap

 

I would argue that the current buoys are functional, low maintenance, cheap, and at least safer than they used to be. So really we're trying to find something safer and more visible. Let's make a safer turn marker list which really translates to light and soft:

 

Sub-surface buoy with very light floating marker (think paper thin but it needs to be resilient)

Ultra-low density closed cell foam

Buoys with very thin walls (i.e. Balloons)

Clumps of feathers floating in the water

 

I think the sub-surface buoy idea has some promise, but it might not be as visible, low-maintenance, or as cheap as the current solution. Although I would argue if you can move the bulk of the mass underwater away from the skier you have something that is safer and just as functional as far as the skier is concerned. Judges would likely have a hard time seeing anything so thin and light in a messy situation, but there are potentially ways to design it for better visibility such as using bright colors or making it reflective.

 

So now let's make a list of visibility features for turn markers:

 

Reflectivity

High-contrast against water

Contrast patterning so it has contrast against itself in order to detect motion

 

So that's not too many, but any one of those could greatly enhance the ability of a judge to observe what is happening to the buoy, either on film or first-hand, in a messy situation. Another approach to solve the judging issue, rather than visibility, would be passive hit-detection features so that the event can be investigated after the fact using an independent metric. Of course these would need to be reset and could be a real pain in the ass. I'm only got one example for this:

 

Bouys which bruise when hit (think pressure sensitive film, it exists)

If a mechanism could be devised to ensure the buoys maintained a known-orientation with respect to the course, we would know exactly where the ski hit. We could use this to make an independent determination of where someone hit the buoy, which could go a long way to determining if they got around it. Of course, you would need to replace the buoys or films quite often. I get the feeling at 39 and 41 skiers pretty much graze the balls constantly.

 

Well, I'm all out of ideas for now.

[Ed_Obermeier]

The real world issue with all of that additional tech stuff is, as usual, the cost to the average course owner/user/maintainer as @mwetskier correctly stated above. For 99.85% of the target audience it is, as usual, a non starter due to 1) cost and 2) hassle to maintain. Impossible to ever get anywhere close to making the investment back to develop. Fun to Blue Sky but in the real world it simply ain't gonna happen. Yawn....

[A_B]

@OB - pylon video usually shakes when the skier puts load on it. For the purpose of viewing the ski outside or inside the ball, it shouldn't be an issue.

 

Sorry to not post more (I did above) on the concept of new buoys, I just think it can get done with what exists today.

[gsm_peter]

Would it be feasible to use RFID. Short Radio Frequence ID devices?

Used in supermarkets, for running biking, Crosscontry ski, etc races.

 

Put one with different ID's on each side on the skier (Binding or legs)

Put a device in the boie that detects that both was on the outside when passing the boie.

RFID are available for different ranges. From inches to a range up to type 8 yards.

Can cope with the speed.

Can cost a few dollars.

I do not know so much about the receiver but would guess in the range of 100.

(For a short period there was a RFID in in mobile phones)

 

Only problem I see is to secure that the boie do not spin around.

 

[9400]

Quick review with leaning to the skier's favor, move on. Less cameras, less judges, less review time, move the show along.

[Wish]

I know it's not on topic but @A_B seems to have the most logical idea. No reason not to have the boat judge make the final call off a durable high def iPad type device. Easy as pie to operate. Redaly available and not all that expensive. And skier knows exactly what's going on. If it's still unclear, have both driver and judge do the vid review and have them make the call. Tie goes to the skier. That way it's not all on the single judge and there is another set of eyes that never saw it to begin with. Judge gets 60 sec to review and makes a call. Skier can opt for an additional 90 sec for closer review by both driver and judge if in disagreement. That decision is final. Move on.

[Stevie Boy]

@Wish I was going to throw that in just before I read your post, I,m with you on this one, Camera in the Boat if the Judges cannot make the call from the tower, then the Boat Judge reviews the boat camera and makes the call, one person makes the call no arguments or discussion, no protest, job done.

[DefectiveDave]

Maybe the simplest thing we could do would be to start using zebra-stripe or checkerboard patterned buoys. Even a soccer ball type pattern would work (in fact I believe visibility may be one of the primary reasons a soccer ball looks the way it does).

 

That would help make the buoys standout and look pretty cool at the same time. It costs a little extra to make them, but they are backwards compatible with existing courses and offer clear visibility benefits, especially when in motion.

 

 

[Wish]

@Srevie Boy yes but give the skier an option for a second review (his/her choice to sit in water longer) from both judge and driver and I would add the review must happen on a minimal sized screen like 7". Not saying judges are old but I now need readers.

[Stevie Boy]

@Wish my thinking was if the Driver and Boat Judge, reviewed it, one might disagree with the other and the same situation might occur, if it was down to one person, there is going to be a definitive decision one way or the other.

Just my thinking.

[Wish]

Disagreement or tie goes to the skier. Takes pressure off one individual making the call if it goes that far. And skier gets a mini protest..at no cost. Could even add in tower judges original calls to break a tie but skier gets the ball if it is ultimately a tie amung all .

 

Dang it... Pushed to second page so here's my previous post that expanded @A_B good idea.

 

I know it's not on topic but @A_B seems to have the most logical idea. No reason not to have the boat judge make the final call off a durable high def iPad type device. Easy as pie to operate. Redaly available and not all that expensive. And skier knows exactly what's going on. If it's still unclear, have both driver and judge do the vid review and have them make the call. Tie goes to the skier. That way it's not all on the single judge and there is another set of eyes that never saw it to begin with. Judge gets 60 sec to review and makes a call. Skier can opt for an additional 90 sec for closer review by both driver and judge if in disagreement. That decision is final. Move on.

[eleeski]

http://i.imgur.com/86u5XyQ.jpg

Showed this at the regional meeting a few years ago. "That's nice, now go away Eric."

 

 

[eleeski]

Maybe it's because I had it upside down - like this picture...

 

Use your imagination.

 

@MattP might be able to fix that. I did have trouble uploading the image and had to go to Imgur.

 

Eric

[Gloersen]

Self-explanatory...

 

[DaveD]

@Gloersen Those would be especially handy when wave runners are around.

[skosney]

Maybe I'm just too darn old and been doing this for too darn long but the day a skier can call for an instant replay video review is the day I go back to just free-skiing on the river ... it's suppose to be fun!!! Safer turn buoys, I'm all for it, but I think I can count the number of bad scoring calls I've witnessed over 40 years on two hands ... the last two by "Senior/Level III Judges" that received those ratings because they can ski really well.

[A_B]

@eleeski - Is that inspired by @Horton 's hair upside down?

[Jody_Seal]

 

While we are re-inventing the wheel can we make them gator proof?

 

[Ed_Obermeier]

No problem Jody. See Glorsen's post above.

[boarditup]

I floated the concept of using colored nylon bristles mounted in floating foam. Think of long broom bristles. For a concept of this, look in the toy isle for a "cush" ball. Very little displacement, cleans the ski as you hit it, should be fairly cheap to manufacture, and compatible with current systems. No more popping the buoys.

[smanski]

 

[smanski]

Cobweb brush from Home Depot. More bristles (denser) would be better.

[Mateo_Vargas]

And it will clean your fin.

[Bulldog]

What will those look like after a few months in a lake????

[A_B]

Not sure I would want to hit the metal shaft with my leg.

[Dusty]

IMO- I think there are two separate issues being looked at here- Safety and Accuracy.

 

Safety- The buoy needs to be thin and light enough that it can move/displace and does not deflect or decellerate the ski. It probably does not need to be even 9 inches tall- a spherical buoy is now under 4.5" exposed diameter. Light closed cell foam noodles attached to a sub-buoy should work well- optically enhanced designs are a great idea. Costs are not going to go all crazy using noodle material and normal attachment systems et al.

 

Accuracy- Is going to cost significant money and time. I see lots of technical obstacles to surmount, and others will be far more qualified to address them.

 

In the interim, we should make it safer for skiers to strike a turn buoy without injury. Spherical buoys just can't move down, out, or down course fast enough- no matter how much more pliable they are- a skier at deep shortline speeds is the irresistible force bearing down on essentially immovable objects- the human part is what is going to yield, and it's going to to hurt when it does.