Binding Fastening - Dual Lock vs Binding Screws

[supersonicus]

Hi Gang,

 

Fastening bindings to ski's. Any performance benefit to using dual lock vs binding screws to mount bindings? I seem to remember reading somewhere where dual lock allows the ski to flex "more" naturally?.?.

 

Thanks,

Matt

[Than_Bogan]

I have used "permanent" 400-250 duallock to attach my bindings for years. It works great. But I seriously doubt there are any major performance advantages. You'll get used to whatever you set up, and there are plenty of things to tune the details to your liking: fin, feet positions, binding rotation, wing angle.

[supersonicus]

Thanks. I use dual lock on my current ski with Goode's power plate. I'm not super crazy about it just because its not a "so to speak" clean installation. Thinking about going with bolt on for the next ski, but don't want to sacrifice performance.

[303Skier]

Dual lock is going to give the ski the best flex properties. If you're going to use the G-10 Plate and mount your bindings to it use the dual lock 250 on the ski and 400 on the plate. If you're going to use the PowerShells use 250 on ski and plate. I am a RTP skier and I battled with the single half G-10 plate. Stay away from it! If you're a RTP skier I suggest mounting your RTP and boot on the full G-10 plate. I'm going to be mounting my reflex hardware to the G-10 plate with a RTP.

[OldboyII]

Hello everyone.

I need to mount/unmount front boot every time I travel, because ski with boot does not fit to my sportube 1.

Would it make sense to use velcro instead of screws?

How many mount/unmount cycles it can stand and how easy it is in use?

Last time I destroyed head on one screw in rush 30 minutes before leaving to airport and had terribly hard time ))

Since then thinking about screw-less system!

Could you give an advise?

[oldjeep]

@OldboyII - my advise would be to buy the next size up Sport Tube. Pulling the bindings off and on sounds like a big pain.

[OldboyII]

@oldjeep agree with you. I have # 2 and when I use it I bump into another pain: # 1 fits to any car, even compact one, whereas # 2 always needs bigger car.

[Chef23]

@Oldboyll if I was taking my bindings off regularly I would definitely go with screws. I think using screws is faster and more fool proof than dual lock. I have had a ski that I dual locked the bindings on and much prefer screws.

[lakeaustinskier]

I like screws because I want to minimize the variables. How old is my Velcro? Are my bindings pounded down properly onto the ski? Too many things for my small mind to think about. Screws are more of a sure thing for me. Yes, I sacrifice some convenience when I switch out bindings (try new skis) and have to switch out the plates but it works for me. And if you need custom plates @malibuskier is fantastic.

[Than_Bogan]

Dual-Lock is not rated for a particularly large number of cycles. Maybe if I find the time I'll locate and link the data sheets.

[DW]

@OldboyII: the Reflex system may offer the best solution for your needs.

 

@Supersonicus: Several of the plate mount systems use slots and nylon inserts to allow the end mounts to slide and reduce the flex impact. With any binding install, the mounting plate can/will alter the flex no matter how it is installed although various methods reduce the flex pattern change.

[Than_Bogan]

Or similarly OB4.

[The_MS]

Dual Lock sucks

[Than_Bogan]

@MS I think Dual-Lock is extremely useful for what it is. It's a semi-permanent mounting that spreads the force fairly evenly (as opposed to concentrating it at the screws).

 

If you expect that out of it, it's great. If you expect more than that, you'll be disappointed eventually.

[lpskier]

Wasn't Dual-Lock used to solve the problem of mounting bindings to skis that were too thin or otherwise inhospitable to screws or inserts? Or as a means of making otherwise non-releasing bindings releasable? In the former case, you have to make do with what you have. In the latter case, it strikes me as a non-scientific shortcut, sort of like duct tape. Call me old fashioned, but I've just never come to grips with velcro as a release system.

[skialex]

A stud plate mounted with VHB Tape or Dual Lock is the best of both worlds. It gives you the ease of screw mounting with the flexibility that tape mounting offers.

A very thin g10 or a 6160 alloy plate is very flexible and allows the ski to flex freely and on top of that you can use self locking nuts that stay in place without over tighten them.

 

[eleeski]

If you don't need dual lock for the release, go with screws. Some Goodes were not designed for screws so you should use dual lock on those.

 

Powershells are a clever design that works quite well. Dual lock is critical for them. But there are many other clever designs that work well.

 

Dual lock and the associated plate is somewhat heavy. Screws and inserts are light. Cutouts in the plate can get the binding setup fairly light. I hate extra weight.

 

I'm not sure flex underfoot is critically variable. The difference between plates and dual lock flex is small. Note that only Goodes were evaluated with dual lock in the factory design process. My skis flex the least underfoot by design. I worry about flex in the tail and try to get flex in the front. Foot pressure will be balanced and have minimal effect underfoot. I have not had a ski break between the feet so that is not a massive load. Any plate attachment effects will be lost in the background variables (roughness, temperature, wind, etc.). Do what is simplest.

 

@OldboyII Dual lock that goes on and off a lot is least reliable. I used rubber bindings permanently attached with dual lock on a ski. I ended up with a couple screws to lock the plate down as well as the dual lock because of inconsistent holding. Screws with inserts and regular anti seize treatment are optimal for frequent binding removal.

 

Powershells with dual lock are excellent bindings. But if you are using a different system go with screws.

 

Eric

[6balls]

I've seen dual lock separate one too many times under normal skiing circumstances to be interested in it myself. Skiing along, rounding buoys, suddenly my buddies separated from their skis and they are in the water.

I realize it likely means it's time to replace the dual lock, but overall seems more of a pain than it's worth in benefit.

[Zman]

@OldboyII The #2 sport tube might need larger car IF you don't take the ski out and collapse the tube first. I have rented cars that could not take the sport tube. But, could take my ski and a collapsed tube. Just a thought.

If you are not experienced at periodically changing your dual lock, and don't wanna mess with changing it, go with screws.

 

[Than_Bogan]

I was wrong. Closure life-cycle (defined as maintaining at least 50% of original holding power) is 1,000 for 250 and 400 in any combination.

 

Link

 

 

That's a pretty large number. I must have been thinking of the new low profile stuff?

[OldboyII]

Thanks all who responded!

In fact reflex option is probably the good direction to move, but I'm afraid that at the moment it looks as a bit overstatement for me - I just free ski, no short rope slalom, same like in winter time in Alps ... just fun ))

 

How difficult is to detach boot mounted on dual lock?

Does it need any instrument?

 

@skialex what is "self locking nuts" in this context and how to use this?

 

 

 

[skiinxs]

I am not a fan of the annual replacement ritual of the dual lock. Lots of finger blisters, swearing, not a lot of fun to be around when I have to do this! Every time I keep repeating to myself "there has got to be a better way"!

[skialex]

@OldboyII self locking nuts have a plastic ring in the threads that prevents the nut from unscrewing.

So they don't have to be tightened against the screws to stay in place.

I used to glued stud pieces on my skis instead of drilling or taping them. The self locking nuts allowed the plates to be loosely mounted and let the ski flex more naturally.

My current ski has inserts so I use spacers in the slots between the ski and the srew's head that gives the same result, something like what the Sequence plate uses.

I have found that Goode skis don't ride that well with rigid plates screwed tightly on them.

 

[OldboyII]

Standard inserts with relatively soft thread do not look like designed for many on/off cycles either.

At least one on my ski is already damaged.

@skialex is there standard stud plate for ski and HO pattern bindings or it is custom made product?

I like the idea with self locking nuts.

 

[Chef23]

@OldboyII to remove something attached with Dual Lock you generally need to use a flat head screw driver or something to break the bond. To reattach it is more than just press. I have a dowel and a mallet that I use to ensure a good connection.

 

Regarding stripping threads you just need to be careful when putting the screws back in.

[skialex]

@OldboyII if your ski has inserts I would change the damaged insert or repair it with helicoil thread repair.

You can have the lock nut results by adding spacers where your front plate is slotted. They should be just a little thicker than the plate so the screws would be tightened against the spacer and not the plate.

If however you prefer to use a stud plate, it will add a little weight but the tape adhesive and the lock nuts will let the ski flex more freely.

Reflex makes the "Reflex Bond Plate"

Miamiskinautique used to sell a "Warp Plate".

Also you can ask @AdamCord @adamhcaldwell or visit the Denali site, they make a really nice and by its looks very light stud plate for their ski and they also explain the benefits over inserts.

Also studs last longer than inserts.

Alex

[eleeski]

@Than_Bogan 's info on the cycles that dual lock withstands is a bit misleading. If the holding power decreases even 10% the binding can have release issues. Perhaps a specially designed plate can tolerate that kind of variation in holding power but tape on the bottom of your HO plate won't. Real world experience indicates that dual lock release properties change enough to affect binding retention.

 

Perhaps my hard water and the frequent ventures into salt water quickly contaminate my dual lock. Maybe the extreme temperature swings at my desert matter. Maybe my skis aren't strong enough to tolerate the chisels and hammering to detach and attach the dual lock as often as I like.

 

Dual lock is great if you need it but screws are simpler, more reliable, cheaper, lighter and more consistent for a permanent hold down if you have a choice.

 

Do use anti seize and lots of care with the screws. Insert replacement is possible (I'm probably faster at replacing an insert than remounting a dual lock binding but I work with inserts a lot).

 

I hate having to work on a ski with self locking nuts or loctite on the screws. Just check the screws frequently. @skialex 's system is one I haven't seen - make sure that nylock nut is stainless steel!

 

@OldboyII Reflex is a great option - even for free skiing. It does take a fair amount of maintenance. Regarding insert cycles, the college kids team trick skis get the rear toe reversed very frequently. The inserts work well.

 

Eric

[Than_Bogan]

I agree that my information could be misleading.

 

I disagree that Dual-Lock is a good release system, for exactly that reason. When I set up my permanent bond, it is easily overkilled by 2x AND it only cycles on and off maybe 10 times in its life anyhow. But as a release system, the forces should be repeatable, which I can't see how they could be.

 

Then again, I have serious concerns about every release mechanism. I'm not sure Dual-Lock is any worse than most other options.

[Horton]

All brands of skis including Goode are designed to have bindings screwed to them. Inserts work.

 

Dual Lock is a 3M product that was never intended to be used as a binding release system. You can use it but you need to understand it and pay attention to how much tape and how old your tape is.

 

Only 2 of the top 10 skiers mens in the world use Dual Lock.

 

 

[eleeski]

If 2 of the top 10 skiers use a dual lock release then it is a viable release system. As @Than_Bogan noted every release system has issues. Those who understand the release system make it work well.

 

Others make an insert based system work. Even a Gatorade lid release system can work.

 

There are a lot of right ways to make a release work. And you can get hurt with the best system.

 

Eric

[OldboyII]

Well. Thanks to so many professional opinions got (I believe) basic understanding of different kinds of mounting systems.

 

In general decided to stay with screws and will move towards Reflex.

 

Nevertheless, just to get practical experience I will give dual lock a try.

And will keep set of screws in the pocket ;)

 

What do colleagues think - how many strips of velcro would be enough to hold front plate with HO Animal boot. Not as release mechanism but for quick on/off ?

[Than_Bogan]

For me, the simplest way to do a semi-permanent mount is to mostly cover the binding side with 400 and then put 4 stripes of 250 on the ski. That is overkill to hold my 175 lbs body to the ski. If you weigh more, you might want to go for 6 stripes where they can fit.

 

Note that corners and edges are weaker, so run long strips where practical.

[Chef23]

I would pretty much cover the bottom of the plate if I wanted it to stay on the ski.

[OldboyII]

@Than_Bogan @Chef23 Does it matter in what direction strips are placed: across the ski or along?

[Than_Bogan]

Doesn't matter a ton, but on the ski itself I much prefer to run the long way, just to have fewer corners that can peel up. It's also much quicker to apply.

 

Also, in case nobody has already emphasized it: 250 to 400 is MUCH stronger than like pairing. When using it as if it were screws, you definitely have to do 250 on one side (I prefer ski) and 400 on the other.

 

Note that full cure of the adhesive is over 24 hours. Best to not even attach the two sides until that much time has passed. Also, the little 3M primer sticks that Goode sends with the skis seem to help a lot for getting a good adhesive bond. I don't happen to know where to buy those on your own, but I'm sure somebody here does.

[skialex]

@OldboyII usually you use dual lock with long plates, HO aluminum plate does not give you a lot of surface for the holding power needed, so you have to do everything right.

Clean the bottom of the plate from the adhesive residues of the foam, sand it a little to give better chances to the dual lock to stick to the plate. Use 400 grit strips and bond it with 250 grit strips. If you want a permanent mount, put 400 with 400 and bond it on the plate and them take the adhesive strips off and put it on the ski.

[OldboyII]

I have couple of meters of Dual Lock transparent (white) and same of Black.

No specific figures or marks on it.

250 and 400 are color coded or it must be another way to see the difference?

 

[Than_Bogan]

400-400 is not recommended for any purpose by 3M.

250-400 is the strongest. Details:

 

Data Sheet

[Drago]

@OldboyII , re-read above posts. I don't think you should use Velcro if you are planning on removing your bindings for travel.the majority of what I've seen is after a few releases, Velcro users struggle to keep their bindings on the ski. They carry around hammers and wooden dowels and are constantly pounding on their ski. Why not just carry a simple screwdriver and not live in fear?

[Than_Bogan]

I agree with Drago.

 

But if you are wanting to experiment with Dual-Lock for some reason: 250 and 400 refer to mushroooms per square inch. They look quite different from each other. Color does NOT indicate the pitch: black and clear are made in both 250 and 400.

 

This page has pictures of each:

 

Guide

[skialex]

@Than_Bogan I know that it is not recommented but it can be done. It only works once, if you want to make any changes you have to damage it to the point that you would need to change it all with new.

Also it is only possible if you bond the two sides of Velcro on the boot and then stick it on the ski.

I have experimented a lot with binding bonding, I prefer the ease of inserts but every system has advantages and disadvantages.

 

[OldboyII]

@Drago at the moment the only thing I fear is - what if in the awkward fall the binding will release from the ski and same time leg will slip out of the boot.

HO Animal does not look like floating device, it will certainly sink and I will get in a pretty anecdotic situation :D

[Than_Bogan]

250-400, properly applied and cured, should never release. It takes a crowbar and a lot of effort to detach.

[skialex]

I have used both and 250 400 works great on a long g10 plate. A front HO plate has less surface and you would need the most holding power possible.

I'm done with dual lock since 2008 and moved to Reflex Bonds and to inserts after Goode strarted using them. I have also installed inserts to many skiis and I would never use Velcro on a ski with inserts unless you ski Power Shells.

[eleeski]

My aluminum plates bent when the dual lock separated (either intentionally or in a release). G10 is a requirement for dual lock with me now.

 

@OldboyII If your binding sinks, it's time for a binding upgrade.

 

Eric

[Andre]

Velcro is for gloves...