How long were you hung up at -15?

[Orlando76]

I'm 32 and This is my first year on the course. I started in Feb on the mini course then slowly moved the balls wider. For 2 months now I've been hammering the "full" course every other day at 31-32 (cheating entry gate) and have no doubt hit a wall, almost seem to have regressed, and frustration and aggravation has truly set in. I see frustration setting in as well with a few top notch skiers that I occasionally ski with as I'm just not connecting the dots.

 

What rate did you progress and what age did you start seriously skiing? Am I in the norm or lagging with progression?

[LeonL]

A few top notch skiers that you ski with? Hopefully they will be your best resource for help. I hope you didn't mean they're getting frustrated with you! If you're stuck or feel like you're regressing you need to change up your practice routine. Hung up at -15? Does this mean that you're running -15 at 31-32? I'd recommend that you start going inside the gate. Regardless, whether you're in or out, this is where you need really to concentrate your effort and get consistent with what you do.

[A_B]

The main reason folks miss 15 is because they don't keep the ski on edge through both wakes.

Focus on keeping your hip up to the handle and lock your arms straight with elbows pinned to the sides of your vest. Hold though both wakes. The ski works through the wakes better in edge but our brain says it is safer to flatten it out.

 

A fun drill is to shorten the rope to 28 off and go 28 mph and just work on leaning behind the boat. The wake is flatter at 28 off so not such a big deal to go over. If you can pull out to a few skier buoys consistently, you are getting it. If you can't get out to a skier buoy, have your friends look at edge control staying over the ski and not leaning back,etc...

[oldjeep]

Forever so far. Been skiing since I was 25, now 45. I've got advice from some excellent skiers and a local legend, however my downhill skiing form always pops in when I stop thinking for a moment. Can ski behind just about anything in water conditions that a lot of folks wouldn't consider but have never had the form to progress. It's fun anyways;). 22 degrees this morning up north, my "real" ski season is coming.

[GOODESkier]

Well, I won't share my story.........

 

But, I agree on changing up the routine. I would say run buoys run buoys WITH THE GATES. Start at a speed you can run the pass and run as many passes as you can with good technique, no scrapping.

 

What boat and ski equipment are you on? Who are the others that you are skiing with? What can they run?

[gregy]

I'd say you are very typical. Its not easy. Don't get too wrapped up in the buoy count right now and just have fun. Chasing bouys will sometimes throw you off when you would be better just relaxing and ski. Your ski partners are going respond better when they see you having fun vs frustrated.

 

I've gotten up to getting into 32off 36mph then took 15 years off. Then worked my way back to running 22off 34. Then 2.5 yrs of very little skiing due to injuries and lack of ski partners. This summer is my first good season in a while and I'm struggling with 15 off again.

 

I've thought a lot about my shortcomings in progression and have narrowed it down to these factors

 

1) You must have good ski partners that are as dedicated as you are.

 

2) Athletic ability. If your athletic your lucky, I'm not, so I have to fight hard for every advance. If it doen't come natural you have to adapt and be smart. I have a engineering background and I have to understand the why of something before I can make it happen.

 

3) Ability to take what someone, coach etc, tells you and convert that into skiing. I'm terrible at this. I need to see a video of myself to understand what's they are saying.

 

3) Video every run you can and review it. I've just started doing this regularly and I'm seeing results after only a few weeks. What I see on video and what I feel are miles apart.

 

4) Keep a journal. I have a notepad and transfer key items to a computer word document that I regularly look back on. What works. What doesn't. Ski settings. etc.

 

4) Get professional coaching. But don't expect this to be a game changer. I've been coached by several professional coaches. Some have been really good experiences and a few have not. But I've taken something, a least one thing to focus on from each coaching session. Don't be afraid to email them later after you think about things for clarification. Most will respond.

 

5) Gain an indepth understanding of slalom theory. Watch videos on youtube and read as many theory related threads on BOS as you can. Where should my body be and why at each part of the course. Watching pro level video is good but also I like reading the coaching threads here were you have a normal joe posting up video and asking for help.

 

6) Dry land training. Some will say this is a waste. But to me its like a rehearsal using visualization. I take about 20ft of rope with handle and attach it to a pole. I'll walk my way through the course thinking about exactly what each part of my body should be doing at each phase of the course. Also lean against the rope and get a feel for the way subtle movement of your COM effect your body. The more I do this I see a direct correlation in skiing improvement.

 

Good luck. I'm 49, having fun and in the best physical shape I've been in since my early 20s. My buoy count may not show it but I think technically I'm better ski now. I wish I had the internet resources that are available now when I was in my 20s. I had so much bad coaching back then.

[rockdog]

Awesome @gregy.

[skihard]

As stated ski with good skiers. Don't be afraid to spend a wee bit of money and get some good coaching too. It's the best money you will spend on your way to improving.

[Waternut]

I started skiing the course at 30 years old. First day on the course I could skip the gate and run 28mph. Took me about 1 full season to go from that point to running the pass at 34mph at 15off. It's a big step... I spent 3 months from May to Sept beating my head against the wall at 28mph because I was on a ski that was really too small for the speeds I was running. Bought a slightly longer ski and gained consistency and immediate progress and was running deep into 32mph a month later.

 

When I was learning 15off, I honestly didn't find anything the shortline skiers were saying very helpful. None of it clicked with me. Try to get some video and post it up. Maybe someone will say something that makes sense to you.

 

Lastly, change it up and shorten the rope to 22off at a speed you can consistently run for a set or two after you run the 15off pass. The shorter line lengths really encourage proper pulling and getting the ski on edge so if you aren't doing that, you'll find yourself miles away from running the pass.

[Razorskier1]

I started course skiing around 30. I didn't have much access, but it probably took me 3 years to get to 36mph and run 15.

[andjules]

My 2¢: even when skiing with good skiers—or even coaches—there is a tendency in our sport to 'coach the pass' instead of truly coaching the skier. What I mean is that we can end up talking about this-or-that mistake at ball 2, instead of trying to find the recurring, holistic theme that is holding us back.

 

If you're stuck, go take a couple of sets with a coach. Ask him/her to figure out the top two things are that are holding up your progression. Then watch video of yourself (as per @gregy's post), and watch Seth Stisher's youtube videos at -15, 30/32mph. At some point, a light bulb will go off, you'll see why you're stuck and what you have to do to overcome it.

 

I'd also recommend going to at least 1/3 free-skiing while you go through this process. Becoming obsessed with orange balls can hurt more than help at this particular point in your development.

 

[Orlando76]

I'm 6'? 205 lbs. on a 69" 2014 base model Senate. Ski 93, 00, and 07 SN equally. Two of the guys I ski with run -35 and -39.5 at 34. I receive great coaching, maybe even more thorough coaching from these two guys than I have from two other local coaches that I have frequented. I also ski with another guy that's at the same level as me which I learn there too.

 

I feel videos would show me what I'm doing right and wrong. A lot of what I'm told sounds like it makes sense but don't know how to apply it without seeing what's wrong.

 

This weekend I Demo'd a diff ski which I figured would come with negative and positive consequences. The HO CX Superlite was a terrible ski for me however it showed the good and bad of my Senate and I learned I'm really struggling to get speed with my Senate.

[gregy]

A 69 senate is a little on the big side at 205. Have you tried slowing the boat to 28mph. That ski should have no problem supporting your weight at 28mph. Are you starting at one ball are just going early at the gates? If you go too early at the gates it can screw with your timing. Senate is a good ski to learn on.

[Orlando76]

I do feel like it's a little big at times, especially in the turn. I've skied it at 28 and really don't care for it at that speed. At 28 I've skied the pass before. I was starting at one ball which I think really hurts me bc I keep coming up with slack rope as I go to turn in. Just this past week I've gone back to pulling out on the left side as if I were going through the gate.

 

This morning I was put on a Mapple Torque 68" since I was already hammered mentally and physically from bouncing around on different skis, bindings and diff wing adjustments, 16mph headwind, boat speed 32 mph. If I was rested with better wind i think I could beat my PB in one morning.

[Fam-man]

@Orlando76 don't mean to sidetrack your discussion but am just curious what you felt was terrible about the HO cx. Reason I ask is I'm debating between a cx and an alloy senate.

 

[Waternut]

@Orlando76 A 69" Senate is the perfect ski for someone at 205lbs and 6' tall. The ski is meant for someone who is 180-220lbs and has to perform for a 34mph skier so it's likely designed more towards the 34mph skier. Might even be borderline on the small side at 28mph if your bindings are further forward than Radar recommends.

 

I do think you should adjust your ski a little bit to ski 28mph though or at least 29mph. You need a pass that you can run. Running your hardest pass right off the dock is not helping you because you're not building confidence or repetitive muscle memory when you're constantly fighting your hardest pass.

 

Also talk to your good skier friends about what is going on in the course that you're struggling with. They might be able to recommend a very small fin or binding tweak to help you feel more comfortable.

[jipster43]

Your body position and fundamental technique should be far more important to you at this stage than buoy count. I have been bumping my head on 28 for the past couple of years, my technique was ugly and inefficient, so I took all of July to work on my stack and fundamentals. I never cut rope. I skied 35 sets at 15'. At the beginning of August I ran my first tournament 28 and have increased my consistency at 28' dramatically.

 

Like Arnold Schwarzenegger says, "Reps Baby!"

[GOODESkier]

I'd spend a LOT of time skiing with the guy that runs 39.5! I'd do anything he tells you to do. Skiing with guys that can run 38 or better is where you want to be. Not that a lesser skier can't help you, but watching a great skier is going to pay off. Take his coaching and apply it. Hell, I would ski on the ski he skis on. Has he helped set up your ski? Is he on this forum? Might we know him?

[foxriverat]

I was in the same spot you are. 5.7 165lbs skiing on a 2013 67 senate. Making the gates and all 6 bouys at 28mph 15 off about 75% of the time. I also ski with better skiers who give good advise. Problem is I was trying things they advised me and started getting less consistent and frustrated. One day it hit me. While I was working on these tips I had forgotten the most important thing to focus on. My stacked position and lean against the boat. I went to concentrating mostly on that and within 3 weeks. I am running 32 mph at 15 off 95% of the time. Are season is pretty much over here so I dont think I`ll make my goal of getting to 34mph. Than_Bogan had this great write up that really helped my stacked position https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oDlyJi8MRdF9t8uQcEMCUEGsivhQ2tP7qOO6HfPgCDg/edit?pli=1

[usaski1]

@A_B " The ski works through the wakes better in edge but our brain says it is safer to flatten it out. " <--- story of my life. I've been a 15 offer.. for almost 20 years.

[TallSkinnyGuy]

I'm a progressing 15-offer (just started back in the course a few months ago after 20-year hiatus) and have found that my biggest challenge with getting into a stacked position consistently is coming out of the turn in an appropriate position where I feel confident enough to pull hard. I think I know what the "stacked position" is but I have trouble getting there.

 

Most everything I've read tells me I'm supposed to concentrate on the stacked position at my level of skiing, but my recent experience is that if I don't have a nice smooth turn I can't get into proper stacked position when the line gets tight at the end of the turn. I have therefore started focusing more on developing proper turn technique (particularly trying to get my shoulders level and keeping hips forward). When I come out of a nicely executed turn I can get into a good stacked position and be confident in my pull (this happens rarely in the course but sometimes when free skiing).

 

I have also read and re-read Than Bogan's article linked above by foxriverat. I have found this and other articles helpful, but Than states in the article that modern skis basically turn themselves. This may be true, but my ski doesn't turn so automatically that I end up in good stacked position coming out of every turn.

 

I've had some pretty painful crashes in the last few months, usually due to trying to pull hard but not being in the best position to do so, resulting in a (relatively) high speed tumble like this one below last week. It may not look like much in the video, but my 46-year-old body doesn't take crashes like this too well. Both of my ankles were slightly sprained (pain and swelling occurred) and my right upper leg had some kind of impact injury that is still causing me to have a sharp pain when I put weight on it in a certain way.

https://youtu.be/g4LUBR9wzvo

 

[A_B]

@usaski1 - shorten to 28 off, slow the boat down to a speed that barely keeps you on top,of the water, and work on wake crossings and turning with a tight line. Ski inside the buoys or in front of them. This is the most effective drill I have seen help folks get over the wake issue. If you fall it will be slow so not a big deal. You will get instant feedback as to where it went wrong. Arms straight, handle in to waist, and lean straight away from the boat, not,back,on tail. The other drill is to try to pass the boat on the side in good stacked lean and hold the position for a few seconds at least. Try to lean so far as to put your outside hip in the water. Get very comfortable in this position. Then go back in at 15 off. At least 28 off is fun to ski at any speed vs 15 off.

 

28 off has less wiggle room so if you are in edge through the wakes, you will get there. Stand up, you won't.

[Chef23]

@A_B I am not sure if you remember but @usaski1 is a handicapped skier on a sit ski. I am not sure the same fundamentals apply.

[A_B]

@Chef23 No I didn't remember. I wouldn't have any idea what challenges a HC Skier would face, but respect the hell out of them for still getting after it!

[usaski1]

Actually, many of the fundamentals do apply, and some of those tips could help. My issue is that my brain some how tells myself to rock up flat at the wake, and I can't stop myself from doing that. I can still get in a pretty good position, and loose it like the rest of you. I would say about 70% translates. I think I was just trying to point out that there's no shame in 15 off.

[A_B]

@usaski1 - have you played around with leading arm/hand/ shoulder pressure to lock the ski on edge? That may cross over to your setup. As far as fin setup, shallower is easier to roll and keep rolled at the expense of tracking.

[SkiItUp]

I was stuck at 15 for a while when I started back skiing a few years ago at around 40 years old. I found that Video was the key for me making the progression. I am now skiing into 35 and am back to watching video to change things for the better. 9 times out of ten its not the equipment that is the problem. Concentrate on your form and it will all come together. Video review if you can.

[usaski1]

I just got 2@30.4 tonight! New or at least 15 year pb! sorry.. just thought I'd share! Wish I could have done that in the Cash prize a few weekends ago!

[thager]

I've been beating my head against the wall in slalom for so long I honestly can't remember. I learned to ski in 1968.

[Razorskier1]

@usaski1 --- AWESOME Mark!!!!

[MattP]

@usaski1 great skiing!!

[wilecoyote]

I'm 52, first shot at the course was Aug 2013, last year in September, I started running my 28mph around a couple of times per set. That spring I had switched to LFF so I spent the summer getting to that point. This year I skied pretty much 1 set per day all summer and finished with a PB of 4@ 32mph. When I set my goal of running 34mph by the end of the season, everyone at the club just smiled and nodded. Finally one of the drivers told me one speed or shortening per season is pretty much all you can expect, so overall I'm happy. I just figured once I started running 28mph consistently off the dock, 30,32, and 34 would fall pretty quick. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

[Orlando76]

one thing I learned last night is its possible to pull too soon out of the ball.

[chris55]

I have been free skiing between 1992 and 2000 and I stoped because my 1st daughter was born and then my 2nd arrived in 2002. I started skiing again in 2013 free skiing and I tried for the first time the slalom with a new ski for me but old because it is a O'Brien Mapple from 2002 I think. So last year I was able to slalom more seriously and I started at 28mph 15off and we have a slalom on open water so it is very often chopy. I was thinking ....by the end of the season I will pass hmmmm maybe 32mph ???? Seriously ? I had no idea. Actually I passed 15off at 30mph. This year I was thinking ...okay let's hit 32mph and go for 34mph. I was dreaming...Well I spent all my season working on body position at 28mph and I am not really consistant at 30mph. Yes it is a very difficult sport and the progress is slow but as long you really enjoy skiing, you will get where you want. And there is no age limit as long you are in good shape, I am 59 years and be 60 next year so I have 5 years to get to 34mph in a tournement. And I love it.

Friend of mine took a video once and it helped me a lot. As Andy advised : "leave nothing on the dock" and he says too "when you ski remember first what went well and keep this positive and then correct what was not good.

[lcgordon]

Last year I skied the course maybe 6-7 passes at long line 28mph. I moved this year 2min from a lake with a course. Super lucky! I could not run a pass so I started at 15off 30mph and it took me a couple months to be able to run that. Then I got more constant and was trying 32mph. About A month ago I ran 32mph and in the same set I said what the heck bump me up to 34. In three passes I ran 34. So in the same set I was able to run 32 and 34 for the first time. Then 2 weeks ago I decided to bump it up to 36 for two passes and got like 2 balls. Then last weekend my buddy decided I should try 36 and I ran it first pass. So in the course of about 4mo I went from no passes to running 36 15. But I think that is my limit until I can get better form. So I will probably be stuck here for a while. What amazes me is how well you can do on crappy form. I would have thought you would have needed good form to even run 30mph. Sadly you dont.