Edge Changing Dynamics

[nicolas_bermudez]

The guy who trains me says one should "keep the ski on edge after the wakes for an instant before changing it" in order to avoid the ski from being pulled straight into the bouy. He says the idea is for one to cross an imaginary line between the three bouys at each side of the course and then to edge change preparing for the upcoming bouy...

Now a friend I havent seen in a loong time saw me the other day do a practice set and wouldnt stop saying one should edge change right after the wakes to avoid slack.

WHO SHOULD I LISTEN TO?

[Wish]

Principals of GUT suggest I get all my speed before centerline and change edge sooner then later to avoid any separation off the second wake and out to the ball. So your second friend is the one I would listen to. But you must generate that speed before CL. It works well... GUT and Denali make 32 off a whole lot easier then it used to be.

 

 

...and no, a FT would not make it easier.

[dbutcher]

For me at least it depends upon the boat speed. The slower the speed, the longer you wait before changing edges. The 36 mph skiers that I have watched change edges during the wake crossing if not sooner. Slower speeds change progressively later. My two cents worth.

[aupatking]

@Wish your ski looks weird ;)

[Drago]

Not sure of you coach/friend's "reasons", but the best skiers change edges basically at centerline, regardless of boat speed

[nicolas_bermudez]

thank you all. will give it a try!

[gregy]

Theoretically pulling long could make you narrow. But is all assuming you are doing everything else properly. Establishing good angle out of the turn. Good stack etc. Read the GUT thread. Good video here from Seth Stisher too. I had coaching from several respected coaches over the last few years, never been told that. Had the opportunity to ski with Mapple a few years ago and he stress to me to do all of the work between the ball and first wake.

 

[liquid d]

It will also depend on your level. What line length you're skiing. If you are a 15 to 22 off skier, You will be pulling well past centerline. Yes, if you're an open skier, you might still be changing edge between the wakes at these line lengths, but if not, chances are you will not have the angle,or pull by then to be wide/up on the boat as you need to be. Post some video to get a much better/more tailored response to your question.

....and if the open skier screwed up the last bouy....he's pulling long too!

[Chef23]

It depends on your ability. What @Wish said makes a lot of sense but you need to generate speed to change edges early. Most skiers working in 15 and 22 off don't generate enough speed and need to hold their edge longer or else they won't get out to the ball.

 

Some video or more background on your ability would help.

[Wish]

@Chef23 yes but even a 15 offer should strive to generate speed before CL and edge change sooner then later. It can be done. It all starts with a great start. Plus at that line length, you do not have to wait for the boat to advance as much or wait long to get back to the work zone...you're already close to it.

 

[liquid d]

Yes, it works great for a guy that's been Open for 20 years.

 

[Wish]

Yes yes... But the point is that It can be done. And it is something to shoot for rather then have the mindset that pulling longer past the second wake is a have to do thing when it's not. Sure things are different at 15 vs 32 and shorter but the general principals are the same. I would not teach someone to load longer past second wake.

[Adam Caldwell]

Before edge change is ever even a discussion point, a person needs to be able to understand how to generate load & speed before entering the first wake. Lacking one or the other will require pulling beyond CL to create an apex that is wide of the buoy line.

 

My advice to anyone before getting into an "edge change" conversation would be to take stock of everything happening both on the gate pullout, and turn in. If the apex of the gate is setup well, and the skier efficiently creates speed/load/direction into the first wake, the edge change happens automatically, exactly when it should. With well executed timing the process can then repeat itself through each consecutive turn.

 

If a skier is consciously and consistently having to force the movements and the ski to change edges (regardless if it is before, at, or after CL) it is a big sign that the apex of the previous turn was not setup properly, and the skiers position over the ski moving into the first wake did not effectively create optimal load/speed/direction to allow for edge-change to happen naturally through the bottom of the arc at CL.

 

Location of the edge change is a good indicator of efficiency, or inefficiency elsewhere in the course. As a result of many other actions, the edge change should never be considered as the root of a problem, only the symptom of one.

 

The video of Seth above at 15off, 32mph should not be watched focusing in on the edge change. Instead, focus on what he is doing with his body position, direction, ski angle, and applied load between the apex of the turn and the first white-wash. That's where the magic happens.

[nicolas_bermudez]

Thank you all a lot, I would love to give you a video buuut im changing skis right now, so I would expect the issue to be affected by that, maybe a couple sets of practice and then I'll show you guys a video. I'm new to the forum too so im still getting myself around.

p.d. my easy pases are at 28 off, but thats on my previous ski, quite old goode.

[lpskier]

Why didn't Seth throw the fist?

[RichardDoane]

@nicolas_bermudez - listen to skiers that are better than you

[Chef23]

@Wish that Seth video is one of my pet peeves for 15 off skiers. If a skier working on 15 off uses that video to focus on their stack and building speed in to the wakes I think it is great. If beginning course skiers use it to focus on changing edges when Seth does they will never run any passes. Seth changes edges so early because his fundamentals are so good.

 

I love what the Adams are talking about and think it makes a ton of sense. I agree with what @adamhcaldwell said above that the edge change is a result of everything that happens before it. I don't think you can force the edge change you need to build the fundamentals that drive when it occurs.

[Zman]

@lpskier I thought you only do the fist pump if you missed something in the pass.... :smile:

[lpskier]

@Zman There are those that like to try and fool the judges!

[nicolas_bermudez]

Here is a video I just found of a couple of months ago, I was recovering from a shoulder injury so dont kill me, that is with at 28 Off @58kmph, hope that gives you an idea

[liquid d]

Nicolas, the edge change will happen naturally as @adam was saying...to get more efficient, there are a few things that i see in the video. The good news is when you get your arms in the right position, you look great! The "other" news, is that your arms are going in and out , and moving away from your body.

I'd start with the gate; get your weight more evenly distributed between the feet, and turn in from the ball of your front foot. You currently are "falling" back a bit, which makes you pull the handle in and up with your arms. Keep the arms pretty straight and down by your hips. Don't let the handle get away from your hips until you need the extra length as you are approaching the bouy.

You're solid on the ski, and I predict you gaining a few passes this year easy. It's just a few things, and you'll be way more confident- good luck!