Cold water is slow or fast?

[Horton]

Please read the options carefully

[PatM]

@Horton I understand the physics of cold water makes it slower, but it certainly feels faster.

[Horton]

@"Pat M"

 

http://media.tumblr.com/fe497dd337d9af8479bb6398b9565d16/tumblr_inline_mg6n5ltl6X1rxe4lt.gif

 

[drewski32]

All i know is that my muscles don't like to function in the cold and that is a bigger variable to me than whether the water is slow or fast

[Horton]

Ahaaaaa screw it

[Than_Bogan]

What!? Most Unjustified Panda ever! Pat is exactly right, to the extent that fast and slow can even be defined in this context.

[Horton]

@Than_Bogan "is slower" "feels slower"

[Gloersen]

Both acceleration and deceleration are lessened in colder (more viscous) water. Makes conditions more difficult to be wide/early with sensation of ample space and time. Slow water conditions lead to a sensation of hurried and late so "feels" fast.

[Than_Bogan]

@Horton Of course it is. The water is not moving at all, so calling it fast or slow is not a measure of the water's speed. It is a measure of something we feel. Anytime I refer to fast water, in any context, it's because I feel like I am building speed more easily and dropping it with more difficulty.

[PatM]

@Horton I leave the technical stuff to people like Than. "Is" and "feels" are the same to me. No one is safe from the Panda.

[Horton]

@"Pat M" my wording could have been better

[eleeski]

I want a Panda too.

 

Does PBing deep into 35 off back when not so many did that count to reduce the implied irrelevance of my vote? Or are you really looking for changes at deep shortline?

 

@Than_Bogan Skiing into a current will give a clear definition of fast water. Down current and into the wind gave me PBs in the Delta. On the warm days.

 

Eric

[Marco]

I'm with Pat M. I know that cold water is slower due in part to viscosity, but it sure is hard to build and maintain angle, causing later edge changes, which makes me feel fast at the apex.

[SkiJay]

Cold water is AND feels "firmer" than warm "soft" water. Calling water firm and soft supports better tuning decisions. Unfortunately, the terms "fast" and "slow" are destined to keep everyone confused forever.

[A_B]

I sink a lot more in warm water.

Well, I sink a lot in any water actually, just more in warm water.

[Than_Bogan]

@eleeski I am fairly sure that Panda fishing is banned under international convention.

[Than_Bogan]

@SkiJay The trouble is, there's another axis. If I use my usual meaning based on what I feel, then fast/slow refers to how easily I can get and drop speed. Soft/hard refers to how connected and secure I feel in the turn.

 

Yes, I have skied sites that are slow & soft and sites that are fast & hard. BUT I have also skied a few that are fast & soft (awesomesauce!) and few that are slow & hard (bummer).

[RichardDoane]

the water in Western Washington is always cold, so get used to it !

[jayski]

"I no not" ...double negative...so "I do have a"

...awesome job on the grammar once again @Horton just as good as "free shipphing" on the front page...your handy work too? lol

[The_MS]

 

[RazorRoss3]

My answer depends on if we are speaking physics or feeling in the water. The sum of the physics of the water is that the feel is fast.

 

Also, my tournament PB is 3@35 36mph which is the same buoy count score as into 38 at 34mph.

[mikegile]

Without arguing the science, the perception for me is warm water gives me more time and space in the course (read slower) and cold water gives me less which feels faster.

[ToddL]

You missed an answer option: I have no idea, but I DO care. I find this stuff interesting. I hope science prevails.

 

All, @Horton asked us to ready the options carefully. This survey is NOT about feeling. The word "feel" was not present anywhere in the survey itself.

 

I just know that I suck less in warm water. There are probably more reasons why above the ankles than below them.

[bojans]

right now our lake is very cold and I would assume very fast. I just don't know that the ice is think enough to test that theory.

[Than_Bogan]

@SkiJay Since my mom is a Captain in the Grammar Police, I'm somewhat weirded out at the moment...

 

Perhaps a few more pictures like that would help me get over it.

[SkiJay]

@Than_Bogan

Ms. Grammer Cop USA was posted by my evil counterpart @jayski, who's apparently more of a feel guy.

[Than_Bogan]

Whoops! Usually I laugh at people who screw that up, so I guess I have to laugh at myself now.

[ScottScott]

This conversation just came up as we had a little earlier cool down (and quick) here in Fl. Seems like only a week ago we were skiing in 90 degree water, now right around 70. I feel like my gate glide is longer (needing an earlier pullout) and I am having trouble slowing down into the turns. That would suggest to me that I'm experiencing faster water.

 

I think its pretty much agreed that the ski doesn't ride as deep in the colder water as it does when its warm. To me it seems logical that as the ski rides deeper in the water, it has more drag and is slower, now as it sits higher in the water it has less drag and is faster. This effect could be positive or negative depending on the ski you're on. A faster/higher sitting ski could be a little out of control where as a deeper riding/slower ski may be more manageable and possibly preferable.

[B_S]

I guess @Horton got tired of beating that octane horse! :D

[ScottScott]

@B_S Actually this is a pretty old thread I just revived.

[Deep11]

Tournament PB into 38off

Harder to achieve and keep the cross course speed up = slower.

Which of course means pulling long / straight at the bouy which is where everyone feels it faster :)

[JackQ]

My thoughts “theory” cold water as salt water is denser than warmer/fresh water and therefore a ski will accelerate more for a given load. I have 20 years of experience skiing in saltwater and it is unequivocally faster than freshwater. My perception of cold water could be influenced by being cold and stiff as well. Regardless I don’t like cold water!

[jpattigr]

Cold water is different in Florida and Canada! Water tops out at 80 in the north and we ski water in the High 40's by end of season. 70 degree water feels faster then 85 water BUT once water is in the 55 range it is like sandpaper between ski and water and feels really slow and hard to get the ski to move. Let's define what temp is warm? 70, 80, 90? and what is Cold water 40's, 50's or 70's?

[RGilmore]

Fail from the get-go. You need to DEFINE "slow" and "fast". Without the meanings of those relative terms being agreed upon the poll results will mean nothing.

 

For the record, cold water is dense and sticky. So, it may feel "slow" because it's much harder for the tail to slip free ("smear"), making the turns have a much wider radius and therefore feel "slow".

 

BUT... that same reason it is harder to get a good angle out of the wakes, and the same physics that cause the turn to feel like driving a bus ALSO direct the ski more directly downcouse after the second wake - resulting in the sense of coming into the ball way too "fast".

 

Therefore, if you had a third poll choice of "BOTH", that's what I would choose.

[ScottScott]

I look at faster as lower load for the same angle out of a buoy, and a longer/freer glide. Faster you'll over shoot your gate with a longer glide, and you'll have trouble slowing down into a turn. Slower will feel more load out of the ball, under shoot your gates, and ski narrow/have trouble getting cross course easily. (I can see how coming in narrow to the ball can "feel" fast when in actuality you were fast because you were slow getting across course and had to pull all the way to the ball.)

 

There are 2 elements of physics going on with water temperature and how it effects a ski moving through or across it. The higher viscosity of colder water will cause more resistance which would slow the speed down. However, the ski will ride higher in the water so less surface contacting the water resisting its movement. As the results of the poll show, there are different views on what everyone feels is going on.

 

Some variables: As I mentioned before, maybe a ski that already rides high in the water vs a ski the sits a little deeper. Generally the faster skis sit higher, while the slower skis ride a little deeper. Those skis would be effected different as the water temps change. And, as @jpattigr mentioned, different temps may be different in what aspects of temperature effects it more, thereby changing which of the 2 factors above have a stronger effect. The difference between 70 and 90 could be totally different than the difference between 70 and 50.

 

Just when you think you have things figured out, the temperatures change and its all new. One way or the other.

[ScottScott]

@JackQ Salt water is definitely known to be more buoyant because of its higher viscosity, which will cause the ski to ride higher in the water compared to fresh water at the same temperature. It should also have similar effects of drag which would put it into the same debate as cold water I would think. Faster or slower? Looks like your vote is faster.

[ReallyGottaSki]

 

[OldboyII]

In my personal case it very much depends on breakfast: brioche & cappuccino gives more speed than plain green salad, independently on water temp. )

[Cam]

[Jmoski]

The density of water does not materially change with temp, viscosity does - the colder it is the more viscous it becomes.

[ReallyGottaSki]

Indeed @Jmoski !

Density just has better memes

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

Rob Hazelwood FOR THE WIN. Completely nailed it. And also thanks @Cam for the pointer to it.

[DaveD]

I'm wonder how much the flex of the ski changes with the water temperature variations. Has anyone with a flex tester compared the flex pattern of a ski at 50degF and 90degF?

[BG1]

I tested a ski maybe 15 years ago and seems like it was about 1 percent stiffer for each 10 degrees colder which is enough to feel in itself. I think viscosity is a much bigger factor in what we experience in cold water.

[bkreis]

I was having this discussion with somebody yesterday, and basically what happens is when it’s cold our bodies are more stiff if you did not warm up properly which makes it seem like it’s harder to move then makes everything feel faster because you’re not as agile as you would normally be. So do an experiment warm-up really well so if you’re limber then go ski cold water and see what happens.

[Jared]

Basically what I have come up with in thinking about cold water, it always feels faster to me.

 

Your reaction time is slower, making it feel like things are happening faster. The water returns less energy to your ski making you cross more slowly, possibly making it feel slow to some? Crossing slower leaves you later for turns, shortening the time you have to do everything you need to do in a turn, making it feel rushed and faster. You are more likely to run out of speed before turning in, which should make it feel slower, but really it makes the boat start to pull you when you should be coasting without line tension, making it feel faster because you are getting pulled down course early when you aren't ready for it.

 

 

 

[ToddL]

@Jared that is a good explanation as to why this poll exists. Different people focus on different functions based upon where they are working on skills. Their focus means that the different aspects of the impact of the temperature are also in or out of focus. Interesting. I still don't care, tho.

[S1Pitts]

I ski in water that starts at 38deg F rises to mid 80's at summers peak then drops back down to low 40's when season ends. All I know is I reduce wing angle as the water warms and then add angle as it cools.

[customski]

@S1Pitts , how does that go for you? That’s the opposite of what the theory suggests you should do.

In colder water less wing angle and or fin surface area should speed the ski up to counter the extra drag of cold water.

 

[skihacker]

Some season's in the fall I feel cold water and some I don't, but when it gets noticeable it always feels like I'm narrow for no good reason. Gate was good, hookup was good, I should be outside the buoy line but I'm narrow. Like the drag on the ski has increased. My only trick is a little less wing angle, otherwise I'm not a fin tweaker guy.