Michigan is trying to legislate stupid

[sixball]

Michigan is looking at making a flag for towing law. I hat seeing a Representative thinking A flag is going to fix people who do not understand safe towing. If any one on this site would be willing to drop a not to or leader I will add the purposed bill and its sponsor. How about a full size tow mirror and stop looking backwards! Thanks to anyone who sends a response.

Link

 

klintkesto@house.mi.gov

[LeonL]

Details? What kinda flag? What kinda towing is impacts. Semis have to use a flag?

[oldjeep]

@LeonL kidding right? Those stupid orange flags you have to fly on your boat in some states when towing a rider.

[sixball]

Yeper I think 12 x 12 orange or red flag any time you would have a rider going to be towed. Skier, boarder, tub. So I bet the law will not fit a surfer, He or she would not be towed! I can see a fight on that one.

 

[oldjeep]

Wow, 12x12 is huge. Still have a smaller one sitting around somewhere from a trip to LOTO a few years ago. I think they are around 5x5

[oldjeep]

Although now that I think about it, in Missouri you only flew the flag when rider was down

[6balls]

My guess is no evidence to support effectiveness. Big flag on motorcycles next? How about joggers, walkers, bikers....people in parking lots, too.

[bassfooter]

California requires a flag be held up when the skier/rider/tuber is in the water, but not while the skier is up and underway. Given the crowds on some of California's public waterways, it's really not all that bad an idea. Have you ever seen Lake Havasu or San Diego's Mission Bay on a holiday weekend?

 

However, the new law that @sixball linked to appears to require that the flag be up the whole time the skier is out of the boat, i.e., including while underway. Yikes! That's just plain stupid. The idea behind the flag is to signal that you have bodies and ropes in the water near your boat; you can see a skier/rider/tuber once they're up and being towed.

 

I was more concerned by all the legalese about having to tell the Sheriff's Association about who qualifies to practice on "no more than three lakes" designated as "practice lakes". Holy crap. That makes my head hurt - I need more coffee.

 

And besides, isn't a tuber a potato?

[gmut]

You have to understand that this is Michigan and if they can tax it or regulate it they will. If they could only fix our potholes.............sigh!

[rodltg2]

a rider down flag is not a bad idea. at least here in California. How else does another boater know to be aware of a rope and rider? I realize you should always be aware , but here in California any Dick or Jane can buy a boat and head to the lake. no training or license needed. I crack up when I take a newby out on a private ski lake and they ask where's the flag ? lol

[parkerc2112]

Find a membership at a private ski site.. Leave the flags to the ametuers.

[Wayne]

@parkerc2112 some private lakes can still be "patrolled" by department of natural resources in Michigan. So it's not as cut and dry. This is kind of silly regulation but I'm betting it stems from an accident a couple years ago, I believe a direct drive boat struck some people on a tube being pulled by a jetski. From what I remember it wasn't totally the DD boats fault due to location of both boats and the land causing an obstructed view for both vessels. A 12x12 flag would certainly make it hard for people to tow a skier/rider/tube behind a jetski but not specifically target them in the wording.

[liquid d]

it's not 12 feet...it's 12 inches.

[liquid d]

Like the ones we used to use at Pro Tourneys to indicate the rope length. Think of the diver down flags, but smaller.

[The_MS]

KC for President. Make Water Skiing Great Again

[bassfooter]

@Wayne where was that accident? Just curious. The absolute worst kind of legislation is that which is in reaction to a one-time event, no matter how unfortunate the outcome. Besides, a driver not watching where they're going isn't going to see a flag.

 

[sighs heavily]

[MISkier]

@Wayne and @bassfooter, I believe this is the accident that may have initiated the new law:

 

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/general-news/20130715/residents-distraught-after-second-west-bloomfield-sibling-dies-following-tragic-boating-accident-in-keego-harbor

 

Sorry about the long link.

 

I think that the father pulling the kids on the tube may have been found at fault.

[oldjeep]

Doesn't seem like a new law was needed. There were enough violations of existing laws.

[6balls]

Perhaps boater training...perhaps even requiring a license as we do with our motor vehicles so that there is a base level of competency would go further than flags.

 

If the posted incident is what inspired the legislation, I understand the pain and the reaction. Having said that...if the jet ski towing the tube had a flag would it have made a difference? What is the legal safe distance and is it being maintained? Legislation only makes sense if it really would make a difference in safety. For those who are on really busy public water and say it's a good idea...that opinion carries significant weight.

 

I pull a fair amount of tubers in the summer and I'll say it is the most stressful towed sport I drive on a public lake. Making some turns and swings I have to stay hyper-vigilant much more-so than straight line towed sports. If others are pulling tubes no matter what I'm doing around them I'm hyper vigilant as I don't expect them to be watching for traffic as much as they are watching the exploits on the tube they tow. Tubing is often not taken seriously enough.

[Wayne]

The accident on Sylvan was the one I was thinking of. The proposed legislation and its relation to that incident is pure speculation on my part but based on how it's implemented it really seems to make it a pain for vessels where mounting a flag holder won't be easy so a passenger will have to hold it.

 

It was mentioned "if you don't like it get on a private lake". That won't work, I'm not sure of all private lakes but I do know of a couple that the department of natural resources accesses them from time to time for fish and water studies. They however have the authority to enforce the laws for boats if they choose. I've personally seen citations issued for under age drivers on jetskis and for towing with out a spotter issued via an officer on land pulling the registration number with a pair of binoculars and looking up who registered the boat.

 

Regardless regulation may or may not improve safety. I do like that Michigan requires a boater safety certificate and restricts the age for jetski use. This flag thing however seems more like a reaction and not well thought out. If you are too stooped to identify a skier in tow and not stay away, a flag on the tow boat isn't going to improve visibility. Hell 90% of the pontoons on my lake have obnoxious flags on them and they are no more visible to me than a guy on a stand up jetski.

[A_B]

Do they really want the boaters to unite and be a force to reckon with in politics?

[EFW]

America - Land of the Free!

[Edbrazil]

Make that "...used to be Free". Big differences since I was a young person some 50+

years ago.

[sixball]

I had a very close call and we had two spotters. Both adults (skiers), I was just ready to pull out for a for lack of better word set of turns. ( open water skiing) I was at 41 off so not long rope. Just had a funny feeling as I started I pulled up and as I did a jet ski passed me less then 15 feet of my side. He passed me then cut our boat off. Our driver had to pull the throttle back to idle. I lost the jetski in front of the boat it was so close.

In the end we found the kids and asked to talk with the parent. So 8:30 am the parent comes out of the house. He is a good 300+lbs beer in hand asking what can I do. We told him the issue and got back. Well no one got hurt! Yeper a big flag would have fixed that!

Living on an all spots lake we are off the water before things get going on weekends. But I just cringe seeing some of the things we do. All the laws in the world will not fix stupid.

[LeonL]

@oldjeep I'm kinda DUH I guess. My whole time reading the first post I'm thinking towing a boat down the road instead of towing a skier.

[burdhntr]

There's a few "issues" with existing and potential laws here in MI. The one that still drives me crazy is that we have to wear coast guard approved life jackets when behind a boat. As a barefooter, it's obvious to me how ridiculous this is. I've been pulled over on our private lake (county still comes out multiple times per week) and given a warning about this. It sure seems to be getting more and more ridiculous here in the Mitten.

[Edbrazil]

See just above. Tell the gummint gendarmes that it is private property, and kindly just

get their intrusive butts off the property. Better yet, how about a gate at the entrance?

 

[BlueSki]

In MI, until age seven the kids have wear a vest with the pillow behind the head (or the classic orange type II). The sheriff that told us about that said he did not like giving tickets, so he was kind enough to let us off. He stopped us as we were bringing the kid in the boat after he was skiing.

[MISkier]

@BlueSki, did the sheriff on Grand Lake stop you? I was unaware of the "pilllow vest" requirement. We move our kids to regular vests when they are 4 or 5.

[BlueSki]

@MISkier Yes, Grand Lake on a quiet Saturday. The kid skied himself and the rode with me on the front of some old jumpers. Not sure the Sheriff actually saw him on skis, otherwise there may have been additional comments.

 

Silver Spray has the special vests, which are hard to find. We never bought one.

[RAWSki]

Sylvan lake was a terrible tragedy. Not sure if these changes do much to help.... except make your head hurt when you read them. I have seen cases where a flag up would help when someone that was "In Tow" is down in the water or of a rope in the water. It's interesting they have kept the MWSA rules that allow the lack of an observer {but you have to jump thru so many 'hoops' to satisfy the rule}.

@burdhntr unless there was a recent change in Michigan a skier does not have to have a USGA approved device on them, they just need to have it in the boat that is pulling them. The rule is different if they are behind a PWC or if they are on a tube I believe.

[B_S]

DNR has the right to police any body of water in MI, public or private, is how I understand it (maybe for private, only if it flows into other bodies of water, not to sure of that point).

[MISkier]

@B_S, I believe the DNR can walk on your property at any time for any reason whether it is lake, no lake, connected to a lake, etc. My recollection is that their authority extends beyond other law enforcement.

[BlueSki]

Noting like unlawful search (and seizure)

[Wayne]

Point of clarification, looking at the 2015 copyright MI boating regulations a type 1, 2 or 3 PFD is required while being towed by a vessel. So you have to use a USCG vest for any watersports behind a boat/PWC. They also call out surfing so no arguing that if you toss the rope you are not "being towed".

 

Also children "under the age of 6" are required to wear a PFD on the open deck of a vessel while under way. So if the water enforcement officer says "the kid needs to be 7" just thank them for the ticket and fight it in court since that is the incorrect interpretation based on how it is written.

[DW]

@B_S & MISkier: according to the sheriff in MI, they can cross your property, use your dock and commandeer your vessel to go out and apprehend a violator. Water in MI belongs to the state not a property owner, access to it is the limiter.

[A_B]

For some of these knuckleheads on jetskis, a 12-gauge might be the best option to assure your skiers aren't run over...

[The_MS]

I would think they should be worried about real problems like DRINKING WATER.

[DaveD]

@MS I checked, the ski lakes around Flint aren't tied into Flint's water system.

[bassfooter]

@DW is correct. The surface of any inland body of water (i.e., not including the Great Lakes) in Michigan is state property, with very few exceptions, mostly involving non-profits. It's a blessing and a curse, depending on what you're trying to do or prevent. For example, some folks thought it might be a good idea to limit the hours we could water ski on the lake I grew up on, and found out very quickly that wasn't going to happen because the state had jurisdiction. But a decade later another group of folks ran into the same quandary when they tried to limit PWC usage to certain hours.

 

But it sounds like some of the laws have gotten out of hand back in the Great Lake State. Even California law allows for the use of barefoot suits and non-USCG "competition vests" when engaged in that kind of skiing. And California is not exactly known for restraint when it comes to overarching legislation.

[BlueSki]

This is straight from the Michigan.gov website. "Children less than 6 years of age must wear a Type I or Type II PFD when riding in the open deck area of a boat.". We were told 6 and under by our friends that are locals (and we were not given a ticket, nice sheriff and good people up there). So the standard Type III my son wore skiing was not legal for on the boat. To be lawful, we needed to swap the Type III for a Type I or II while on the boat. Given that they have to deal with people on the Great Lakes, and I would bet too often in boats that should not be on the Great Lakes, I am not surprised by the law. Just something to be aware of if you have your kids on Michigan waters.

 

 

[Greg Banish]

I just emailed both Representative Kesto and Mike McCready (my representative). It can't hurt to have them hear our voices.

[sixball]

Michigan law has changed a USCG approved vest is now the law.

And yes a DNR officer has every ability as any police agency and then some. They can inter privet property.

And yes we have been sited for skiing without a spotter. I tried the one, we can ski without a spotter if practicing for a complication. They understood the law and it did not work. The fine is anything up to one hundred bucks. But by the time I got done with all the fees tacked on it was like one eighty! We do ski without a spotter often but never in hours the lake is seeing boat traffic. Any one have a nice looking manikin? Nothing I need to blow up...........

[LeonL]

I've mentioned this before, concerning jurisdiction. In KY the Dept of Fish and Wildlife is the enforcing body. An officer told me, in no uncertain terms, that he could come on any property anytime because wildlife is everywhere. That gives them access and authoritity that normal law enforcement doesn't have. Their "probable cause" is that wildlife is present.

[oldjeep]

In MN it is kids under the age of 10 who are required to wear a PFD, don't have an issue with that one.

The law regarding PFD and skiing is kind of weird in MN - you need a USCG jacket for all people but don't have to wear it while skiing.

A wearable U.S. Coast Guard-approved life jacket must either be worn by the person being towed, or carried in the towing watercraft.

 

[BlueSki]

In Ohio, one must be age ten to be an observer, but if a kid under age ten has passed the boater safety course and an adult is within reach, the kid can drive. Still can't observe, but can drive a skier.

 

[Edbrazil]

Face it, we are living in a Nanny State governed by idiots. At least, back in 1775, we rose

up and did something about it.

[BlueSki]

Ever notice that April 15 is just over six months from Election Day? Can't get the two much further apart.

[So_I_Ski]

I gotta tell ya, I haven't laughed so hard and so long as when I read liquidD's comment of .... it's not 12 feet .... it's 12 inches" in response to Wayne suggesting that it would certainly make it hard for people to tow a skier/border/tuber .... Thanks for the laughs liquidD, you made my day. I had been thinking that if you really wanted to make the flag visible or to attract attention, the law should require the skier to carry it in the crack of his ass. That way it would have the added benefit of keeping their hips up as they clenched their butt cheeks to keep the flag from falling out. In Canada I don't believe we have any law requiring a visible flag in any jurisdiction in the country to indicate that we might be towing something. For that matter, although we are supposed to have a spotter there are times we simply have to ignore that rule or we wouldn't get to go skiing. But the first time I took my boat to a very remote little lake just south of us in WA, I was dumbstruck to see all the rules being observed when there wasn't even a second boat on the lake. Every occupant wearing a life jacket, the little orange flag popping up and down and then there was a couple with a tournament boat that had travelled all the way from Seattle to camp and ski who would simply never have considered skiing without a spotter. And these people were very good course skiers and boat handlers. Had I not volunteered I doubt they would have skiied all weekend because there were no other boaters in the little campground. Admirable law abiders but just a bit over the top in my opinion. But what really blew me away was the young family that came up to fish all the way from Texas with their really nice bass boat. The man proceeded to slap on his sidearm before getting into the boat with his wife and six year old and later at the campfire he proceeded to tell me that he would never go anywhere on a camping trip without wearing it to protect his family. Maybe in Houston he might need it, but in northern WA where the nearest town was 25 miles away and contained 100 people he was far more likely to get hit by a freakin meteor than require a gun in the middle of a lake. In conclusion, I think flags are the least of your worries. I would be far more concerned with getting shot, accidentally or otherwise. Use great ... not good judgement, make protecting your skier your ONLY focus, assume all other boaters are not paying attention and stay to hell away from them. If you can't, then ski another day because the water would be wrecked for any decent skiing anyways.

[burdhntr]

Yeah. The joys of living in Michigan. I've spoken with friends in government, and they say it's unlikely anything will change as they're trying to legislate everything to clarify the law.

 

One point of interest to many of you out of staters, it's not the DNR that we're talking about here. It's the county sheriff that sends deputized citizens (usually teachers on their summer vacation) to drive the (private) lakes in our area and patrol. They usually know the law, and some of them are pretty decent people. But every now and then you get a ticket for kayaking without a life jacket, or a USGC vest inspection. It's obnoxious. Only saving grace is that we usually ski our sets early in the morning before they head out on patrol (evenings and weekends).