High entry fee costs of tournament skiing.

[Wish]

So each year in FL there seems to be less and less class C tournaments. This year being one of the worst to date. I had a skier come out to my lake today and killed it at 28 off 36mph. I mean the kid has mad skills. So my first question to this 25 year old was if he did any tournaments. His answer was sad a maddening.... "No..they are just to expensive around here all being Rs" (typically $150-$200)

 

REALLY..!!!! We are in the waterski capital of the world here in Central FL. There are 40ish tournaments in the state of FL this season. It is a looong ski season. So the most that FL tournament directors/clubs and lake owners could pull off is 9 ish class Cs ($75 max)?. Some on Wed afternoons (people work should not include them). And I should not really include the ones in Milton as that is damn near to far to drive. This is so frustrating to me. I used to have 5-7 local tournaments in Central Fl to pick from. Now I drive to Jacksonville or Palm Bay or Tallahassee to find Cs. This is just stupid and wrong. The local directors, ski official, lake owners and clubs should be ashamed that this talented, hungry to ski, Mens 1 skier has to bail on skiing tournaments because their heads are so far up their.... with trying to attract pros or be all about ratings and prestige. So yes, lets ignore the pay check to pay check skiers. Let's ignore the 20 somethings that are just starting out. Lets ignore skiers with families that have up and coming youth skiers. Lets ignore the fun a class C presents. Common...!!!!! I have done more tournament skiing outside of central Florida in the last 5-6 yrs because of this crap..and yes, it is crap because there is absolutely no rational for moving away from Cs. If there are less Cs next year part of me won't be surprised, I can only hope this is not a trend Nation wide. And if not, maybe FL can learn a thing or two from other states. And yes, I hope I have offended some officials and others in this area. Maybe they will snap out of this elitist attitude and get back to what tournaments are supposed to be. To hear that sentence from that Mens 1 skier was a tipping point for me..there simply is no excuse for that. No more silence on my part. AND MUCH thanks to the tournament directors and lake owners/clubs that put on the class Cs. You know who you are and we, the common man skiers, applaud you. Rant done..

[thompjs]

When IWSF created the over 35 lists that created demand for all of these L's. Of course they could do C and L.

 

 

[Wish]

@thompjs exactly and a few do but thats part of the 9 or so. Was done more so in the past.

[ToddL]

I'm at a class C & GR right now. Season opener in ATX. Tons of fun. Smiles despite a little wind and sprinkles.

[LeonL]

Now let's see. Just what are purposes of L and R? I won't even mention E and really don't see any purpose for E at all anymore.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this generalized assessment of L and R. L you can get the scores posted on the world ranking list and you can set a National record.

R same as above plus a World record may be set. With FL having so many pros and so many international skiers, I guess there is a demand for a decent number of L and R. But it seems that by @Wish's count there are a lot more than would be necessary. Next question. Why can't or won't these sites do a C segment along with the L R? Do these get a full entry limit of only L R competitors? Here's another note. We here on KY just don't do L R because we'd get no entries at $200 a pop. I'm not going to hijack this thread, I'll start another about tournament skiing around here.

[Wish]

@OB1 we do have a crap ton to choose from. Pick any weekend this summer..you'll have your choice of North FL, Central FL or South FL all on the same day, all class ELR.

 

[Wish]

@OB1 those that say they have to charge as much as they do in FL for ELRs are now officially full of crap. My ski buddy ran ELRs in the NE. 3 yrs in a row they had 3 rounders for $50-60. Yep, full of crap.

 

[Edbrazil]

Just finished doing some work at the Lakeland Open at Ski Paradise in Mulberry, FL.

Class C. And, they have another 3-event Class C in 2 weeks.

[jetpilotg4]

Do your C tournament results go towards your rating at all ? Its been a while since ive done a tourney EP was the rating that got you in the nationals back then

[Wish]

Cs do go to ratings. @Edbrazil Yep, that accounts for 2 of the 9 or so in FL out of 40. And for the most part, the only in CFL. They are some of the ones I applaud.

[The_MS]

We would host class C events every weekend if we could get a boat. The demise of promo owners is really going to make costs go up in the future.

[klindy]

If there is that high of a demand for class L/R tournaments AND there still is a pool of skiers wanting a class C tournament why can't a group of "regular judges/scorers/drivers" run a class C tournament somewhere else in the area at the same weekend. You should be competing for skiers or officials if that's the case.

 

I understand it takes a site and those are likely the same sites which are pulling L/R tournaments too. But if you fill up a day with 3 rounds for as many as you can get to come at $50-80 a weekend (or per day depending on what you sanction) you'd still do fine with the lower requirements.

 

[bishop8950]

If FL can fill up expensive Records every weekend that is a good thing, not a bad thing. Furthermore if they are filling up then the price is not too high it's just what he market bears. Each LOC has its own motives and intentions for their events and since they are hosting and doing the work why shouldn't they do whatever they like. If you don't like it don't go.

 

I agree a mix of Cs and Records is best for the sport. In NorCal we have a great mix of records and Cs so there is something for everyone on most any weekend. I hear you it sounds out of balance in FL but the question should be "how is it going to change"? If you want more class Cs then get a LOC together and make it happen. If I were part of an LOC in FL and I read your post it would not inspire me to change. Instead I would be inspired to shift your entry straight to the wait list next time I saw one.

 

I am trying to be constructive. Change is good and often required. Make it happen.

[Phil]

Brian , we have 4 events here this year with one of them tomorrow, we always have a class c section as well as L & R our next one is Sept 3rd and Oct 8th thay will all be C,L& R

[klindy]

@Phil is the class C entry fee competitive with what you'd expect to see for a straight class C tournament?

 

As I see it, the biggest challenge with a heavy balance of class L/R tournaments vs class C tournaments is that family's are effectively shut out. It's one thing for a single person to shell out $100-200 per day for a tournament ($200-400 for a 4 round weekend). It's a whole other deal with a family of 4 or 5.

[Wish]

@bishop8950 Not sure I agree with "filling up with expensive tournaments is a good thing" but the rest I get and respect. And yes it is a strong rant, not intended to make change but to spark discussion. Hopefully the local LOC will catch that vs my spinning things up to spark good debate. A flat opening discourse would most likely get ignored. It prompted you to chime in with lagit thoughts and thank you for that. And perhaps gets those that do put on Cs to surface and post here. Did I really want to offend..? nah...most know me as a pretty gentle easy going guy. Heck, they may have thought I hit my head or something. It does feel disproportional around here. To be honestly it is not about me. It's about the 25 year old that literally feels he has no place to go other then to travel far and spend money on gas and lodging making it a moot point. @Phil, my apologies, I missed the C with the LR combo. That helps greatly and I will pass that on to the skier that was out today. Will most likely be there for one of those. I would like to see more/most tournaments here in FL combined like that. There must be a reason it is not that way. The combo just seems smart for those that want both. The problem with doing another just C tournament here is finding a date. As far as I can tell, there is simply no room on the calendar. Every weekend there is already 3 or more in the state going on at the same time. Only so many promo boats to go around (they are awesome by the way). I do apologize if I literally offended anyone. But do think changing to at least a combo would open the doors for skiers outside of the high priced tournaments.

[bishop8950]

@wish, thanks for taking it constructivly. In NorCal our lake hosts a 4rd C the same weekend as a super popular record at Liqud Zone. We pull an entirely different crowd and sell out every time. I do have to be careful to ensure I have the increasingly sparse promo boats and enough drivers/judges but we pull it together. My point is doubling up on a weekend with other records may work. If there are enough people on the sidelines waiting for Cs it should work.

 

You did get me thinking. Cs are great for price conscious skiers as well as developing newer skiers and officials. If I was not able to assistant drive a bunch of Cs I would never have earned my regular drivers rating. So it's another point that should be considered if things are out of balance in FL. Would more Cs help FL develop the next generation of officials?

 

On full/expensive records being a good thing, I am thinking that if there are that many skiers who value records and are willing to pay good money - it feels good for the sport from a partcipation perspective.

[Wish]

That 25 year old that was here today. He wants to be an official driver. He added he could then start driving for college tournies. Not sure how he could do that with all the ELRs. Your point is an important one. Thanks. Wow, just reread my initial post...maybe I did hit my head..haha.

[Phil]

Our class C section is $75 and L&R IS $150 , the reasons we try to do class with the L&R is it gives the skiers that don't need ranking list scores ,gives the opputunity for lower ranked judges to gain experience and also gives the tech contoller time to set up before the L&R starts, so its win win. This year so far we are down on entries so far for the tournaments done and upcoing , normally we are running a wait list, tomorrow we have re santioned from a 2 rd to optional 3rd, weather permitting because of lower than expected entry

[mjump]

As a former Midwest skier and now a northern FL skier we found nowhere to ski and had to get a permit for a course on a public lake. It has become a clique sport where you have to know someone to ski. It is not a family sport like it was when I was a junior through mens 3 skier. We had many more ski lakes available to ski on in the Midwest than we do in the skiing capital state. I hope Jeff Surdej can help bring some new light to the southern region.

[lpskier]

As a New Yorker skiing in Florida, here is my take. First, the Florida custom is that all officials get comped. That's 12 free bees. If you run a class C with a low entry fee, you'll lose money, especially with a three round tournament. Bad business model for promoting the sport at the Class C level. In NY, everyone pays, even the Chiefs (but a three round tournament might be $45 total).

 

Second is the protected weekend/ protected tournament rule. There is a rule that you can't have two sanctioned events within something like 100 miles (maybe it's less, but around Orlando, who cares. It could be 30 miles, that would still cover most of the lakes) at the same time, and many weekends are pre-committed to particular events, like the Lakeland Open that Ed mentioned. It's hard to get a weekend to have an event, and it's financially hard to make the numbers work for strictly a C with a low entry fee. The ELR model works because of the higher fee underwriting the event cost driven in part by not charging officials.

 

In my view, @Wish, to accomplish your goal, you need to get rid of or at least modify the protection rules so you can have more tournaments. A class C slalom won't really take skiers from a three enent tournament, A class C/F slalom won't compete for the same skiers as an ELR, so the bigger, already established tournaments won't be hurt, and if everyone pays an entry, you can keep the entry fees down. If you are fired up about this, talk to Drew Ross because he is too. You should also become active with the Florida Federation if you're not.

 

Our Class CLR at LaPoints this spring attracted 8-10 skiers C skiers. I was happy about that.

 

Sorry if I stepped on any toes. That was not my purpose.

 

#iskiconnelly

[bishop8950]

@lpskier, good insights.

 

The rule of only so many tournaments in a certain radius has some merit, but if it's making impossible for other events to get off the ground it seems wrong. I am not saying that is happening in FL because I have no idea.

 

On comping officials, it seems we have some "standards" by region and probably additional LOC specific approaches...which I think is good. In NorCal it seems typical Chiefs are comped and that's it. Sometimes boat owners but not offen. Comping all officials would force you to drive up the cost for each paying/non working skier which makes it more $ for new skiers to enter but also provides an incentive for skiers to keep ratings and work! Interesting.

[aupatking]

I'm a low C skier, and it's not much fun to drop $70 on two passes per round but I love it anyway. The guys at Ski Chaste and Ski Watch, in Mobile AL and Milton FL,do a fantastic job of putting on R all the way to GR, which, since I'm not qualifying for anything, they let me run sometimes to get at least 3 passes.

At $150+ it's not a consideration.

Thing is, I'm a youngster at these tournaments at 38 years old. The only people younger than me are the kids showing up with their parents. These kids rip, so I'm not knocking them at all but, I've never seen a 20-something pull up to any of the tournaments by themselves to ski. That's not a market we can afford to alienate. I want cars full of 20-somethings. At $65 it's cheaper than a round of golf.

[LeonL]

Our policy is to comp CJ, CS, CD, Safety, and two appointed, plus promo owners. Now having said that we have within our club one senior driver, one senior judge, 3 regular judges, one regular scorer, one state safety. We would obviously still comp the needed officials whether members or not. If you want to sponsor tournaments you have provide some incentive to get the officials that you need.

Cost for a 1 day class C tournament....first off you have the sanction fees - USAWS $150 and Southern Region $100. Then gasoline figure (at current $2.50 per gallon) about $1.40 per pull. Water, ice, lunch for officials $35, figuring conservatively. About every 2 tournaments you need a new rope at $120. So,you've got a fixed expense of nearly $400 and based on pulls gasoline expense added on. You (only) need 6 paid entries to break even, again not counting gasoline. So you've got 14 skiers, with 2 promo guys, and just be breaking even. If some of you read my other post about promoting tournament skiing, you know we had 13 entries June 4th. Some sites didn't like to comp promo guys/gals. My opinion is they deserve it more than officials, what with the expense of their boat and the extras expense to towing to get to your site.

Boring to some, but the above may be an eye opener to others.

[aupatking]

@Mark_Matis you're dead on, with several points there.

1. the skis we ride. They aren't even for sale in the largest market places we have. Overton's has nothing more expensive than a $750 HO CX (great ski aside) but these guys know what the market will bear. (I'm as guilty as anyone here of supporting the runaway train, I've got 3 $1500 skis on my wall right now)

2 I'm running a 98 ski Nautique that I absolutely love, but because of that, I search for meaning in Zero Off settings in tournaments. If it wouldn't run me $40G's to replace a boat I'm perfectly happy with, with a 5 year old ZO boat with 3 times the hours as mine, I may consider it, but no thanks for now.

3 I cannot win. I cannot place. I'm skiing against Richard Moyer and Chad Hunter. I love those guys, but my 2 balls @-28 is never gonna podium next to 5 @-38. I could post a PB day, and get 4 @-32, and what does it give me. @Horton has put together a fun format with the BOS tournaments. And I could win. But we are back into $200 tournaments again, but again, I can win, isn't it worth it? A format where you are skiing against your skill level skiers or your own average makes it possible to win, and want to ski better.

 

I've just been thinking a lot lately about giving a set skill level 6 passes. Make or fail, 6 passes. Again, this group isn't posting numbers that get them to nationals, they're just smiling. And two tournament rounds behind the best boats out there, and a day with a ton of cool people, who complains about $65-$70?

[IheartJump]

I'll plug ohio's buckeye buoy tour again... i think it is a perfect model for fun family involvement in tournament skiing; good retention of collegiate skiers. Handicapped scoring; seeded by ability, not age division so you end up on the starting dock with 60 year olds and 12 year olds :)

 

Awards at each tournament plus season long statistics encouraging skiers to compete in as many tourneys as possible.

 

Plus cost effective! (officials are incentivized not comped... see below for details)

$50 for slalom only, minimum of 2 rounds, but if you ski well you get a 3rd or 4th (though they might not count for the 'official' score book)

 

I always 3 evented. Usually thats 2+ rounds slalom, then your choice of 2nd round trick or 2nd round jump.

 

 

REGISTRATION

 

If you register 2 weeks in advance, you can still ski for the same great rate of $50 for 1 event, $70 for 2 events, and $80 for 3 events. If you register after that 2 week period then you will pay an additional $10. Registration will close at midnight on Wednesday before the event. Don’t forget, if you are an official and willing to work the tournament you will save 20% (check the invited officials box at registration) and Juniors receive a 30% discount. For collegiate discounts you must contact the Tournament Director directly and discounts may be awarded in exchange for help with the site preparations/cleanup/event work.

 

[Jody_Seal]

Not quite sure what the twist in the panty's are all about. Class C tournaments left for 2016 total 16 in the state of Florida with 9 in the Orlando 100 Mile radius. some states like Montana only have 2 or 3 a year!!

 

As a AWSA Director and a Florida Federation past officer I have never seen Wish or others at either of the annual Federation meetings nor the two southern region meetings, please attend and offer up solutions or offer up your services to help officiate and help out at the tournaments you do attend and get involved with more then just paying to ski then leave. Most all the sites in central Fl are open to renting out their site's to others for events, why not try that ? Sunset has done it, Kiwi, and other central Fl sites have done it. Ski Paradise holds the annual Lakeland open (class-C) run by the Lakeland waterski club that is a show club.

 

Yes Florida Is the water ski capital and like OB said he wishes there were more records in GA so he does not have to go to Fl for one. want to compete with the best then the price is REL tournaments. Want to have fun, ski with your buddies and low key competition? Then if there are not the class C level available there are two choices put one together or drive a bit and see the country.

 

Lake 38, looking forward to it!!

 

[ToddL]

We're all hooked on the "crack" we call tournament PBs and buoys. In the real world, crack dealers entice the target market with "samples". I think this is part of this discussion. GR and C tournaments (when designed, priced and run with the intent of making skiing fun for novice and non-ranking-list skiers) can fulfill this need.

 

I recall the famous quote from Field of Dreams - "if you build it, they will come". Are we having the same discussion? Lake of Dreams - "if you sanction it, they will come". Well, maybe, or maybe not.

 

There are a lot of valid barriers to entry as noted above and on many previous threads. All legit in many ways. Any many people can use those barriers as reasoning to expect low demand for cheaper competition options in our sport. However, I can guarantee this: Every tournament without a Class C/GR is going to absolutely ensure that no new skiers will participate. It is the surest way to kill our sport's continuation or growth beyond pure procreation from within the existing competitive population.

 

Not every tournament must have Class C/GR. There needs to be elite events for ELR only. However, there needs to be some expectation of C/GR outside of the top echelon, elite events.

 

I hate requirements/rules but maybe it is time for some sort of pressure from AWSA on this. They typically try incentives but maybe a little firmer expectation is in order. Something like making an "Elite" Sanction designation which by its very nature is E/L/R only. Then, require clubs who book "Elite" events to also book at least 1 C/GR sanction (can be an add on) for every 3 "Elite" sanctions. Or, possibly by region, require that each regional governing body sanction a specified ratio of "Elite" to C/GR events. Thus, force the addition of C/GR.

 

Go ahead and hooray or harrumph these ideas to the fullest extent. Hopefully out of the discussion some improved solutions will evolve.

[John Brooks]

Seems like @Jody_Seal makes a great point about the differences and the need for more folks to get involved in the various organizations (State, Region & National Orgs), get involved as officials and more importantly be willing to get involved as tournament organizers (this is where the rubber meets the road).

 

I think FL is the exception, as far as number (percentage) of record level tours. If you have not been involved in running a quality tournament, it takes a lot of time, work and commitment and if a record event, a fair amount of cost, particularly in technical equipment (camera, recording devices, ect).

[IheartJump]

@Jody_Seal , couldn't believe there were that many tournaments so close...but then i looked a little closer. if i'm going to pay to compete, you'd better believe i'll be jumping. Just can't bring myself to slalom-only. so when i narrowed down there are only 3 "class C" 3-event tournies in all of florida this year.

 

1. Mulberry Father's Day - 2 round, 3 event for $75! that's a great deal!

2. Lelani Gales Wednesday night - no outside skiers allowed (weeday limitations)

3. Okeeheelee October Three Event - $130 for 1 round, 3 event... no go

 

Already have father's day plans, so there's the tournament season gone.

 

As a director i think you know there's a problem with declining membership. I'm a classic example. I was introduced to AWSA/USA Waterski in collegiate tournaments. When i left college i was an assistant judge and driver; moved to orlando and went to a few florida tournaments (class C), but had to beg to get in a judges tower to get some credit to maintain it. Asked to drive also but was turned down "we've got all the drivers we need".

I didn't get any discount for the judging.

 

The reason i like the 20% discount for all officials rather than totally comping some judges is that it encourages everyone to judge/drive etc. you can afford to have 50% of the skiers judging. It takes the burden off a select few who spend the whole day in boats/ towers.

 

growing up in buffalo the hockey scene was this:

every rink had a house league; the better house players tried out for travel teams.

 

i think there is are two levels of competition skiers: ELR skiers going for rankings. and the beer league/house league skiers that do it for a fun healthy activity. I think if you build the base (house leagues) then you've got a better base for the ELR nationals/regionals league skiers.

 

not a complete solution, but discussion gets us closer... my panties will be twisted until i find a way to get back into tournament skiing without dropping $150 on the average tournament

[Jody_Seal]

@IheartJump, Great post and right to the point. Central Fl is now a day's a tough place to be a lower than regular official. Driving assignments are even harder to obtain.

 

A couple of point's though, go join sunset lakes club. Jack and Leani are always' open to enthusiastic skiers and you can't ask for a better place to jump (jump City). Also if there is room on the wed class C tournaments they will let non club members ski the tournaments.

 

 

 

Declining membership is a result of a number of things and the ripple effect runs to a point that it becomes a tsunami as the many different items stack up: Cost of fuel, Cost of entry, Cost of membership, cost of boats and the rules dictating boat usage, excessive rule's for a simple sport and the fact that many members are not willing to put in the time to propagate the sport are just a few of these items. it does not have to be this way but We as Members have brought most of this upon our selves.

Your own Florida membership meetings you can come and get involved, your own regional meetings you can get involved by attending. If you are not satisfied get off the internet and come get involved. want to be a driver? You have to get out of central Florida and attend tournaments in other areas. I remember going to Jacksonville, Ski paradise, Whitestone and many other area's to maintain and get tournament time behind the wheel along with long hours of driving Friday practice before tournament's and ski school driving (at Jack's). Again living and skiing in central Florida can be fun and competitive but if the beer league is what you are looking for you might want to start one up! Get one together I would probably come down from PC for one or two events , judge help out and at least dock start and ski if nothing else. If there are enough of you in central Fla that want economical events then put them on.

 

We could have used a good dock starter and practice driver on fri in Mobile Alabama this past weekend and we had a number of class C three event rounds in conjunction with the R&L where one could get officiating credit, yea not in central Fla but we did have a number drivers and officials that drove from more then 200 mile's my self included to make the event.

 

Not picking on any one in particular but;

See you at the state membership meeting???

See you at the regional meeting???

 

Probably Not!!!

[dbutcher]

@LeonL your June 4 post about E tournaments got me thinking and reading the AWSA rule book. There is some value in E tournaments. Regional and National slalom records can be set at E tournaments with slightly lower judging/scoring requirements than L or R. I'm glad E is available. I'm always chasing one of the old man Regional slalom records.

[IheartJump]

@Jody_Seal where / when? ... i've never been invited before (that i know of)

[Jody_Seal]

Don't need an invitation! Come on!!

All the info anyone needs about the Florida Federation is right here: http://floridawaterskifederation.org/

[LLUSA]

I have been putting on tournaments for over 40 years, class C's no longer make any sense. It's impossible to break even in my area. Leon not sure how you feed people on $35, when I'm spending $150 a day for 22 officials/volunteers. The real bare bones cost to put on an event run around $2000, go figure. I'm doing 4 REL this year along with two collegiates so I think I'm qualified to answer this. You can't make a tournament go on 10-12 c skiers. And George we are closer than Florida.

[Than_Bogan]

I get the idea of "if you want to change something, get involved."

 

But to a certain extent, that notion is misplaced. The last thing some newb wants is new responsibility. They want to show up, have fun, and go home. Only after they become an addict might they consider going to meetings.

 

I have attended one Regional meeting, and only because I happened to be there. I found it both uninteresting (mostly procedural stuff) and unfriendly (new ideas or "complaints" were shouted down). I was one of the youngest people in attendance at age 40+.

[Ilivetoski]

Read somewhere in this thread that there are about 3 ELRs in FL every weekend.. One in north, central, and south... What crap. To the people saying you should just drive to find class C, why don't you drive to the R?? Then have the other 2 sites hold C tournaments to help this sport grow? There cannot be so many skiers looking for world records that you need 3 tournaments a weekend. Other than that what is the draw to an R tournament? If you're getting into 35 or 38 or even into 41 what reason do you have to ski R? $200 for usually one round? No thanks unless it's regionals or nationals. And I try to ski in every possible tournament I can

[dbutcher]

I've had a different experience than Than at regional meetings. I've only missed one regional winter meeting that I can remember in 30 years or more. The last five years or more our regional officers have been asking for new ideas, new ways to grow our sport, and everyone who wanted to was welcome to come and participate. Our regional officers are very sharp and experienced people. They know the history of AWSA, the reasons behind rules that may be controversial, and on and on. Experience has value, and so do new people and fresh ideas. Class C tournaments have value, and ELR tournaments have value. We need more of both, but they are getting harder and harder to put on because we are losing members, officials, and most importantly promo boats. My two cents worth.

[Jody_Seal]

lt boils down to supply and demand, I don't know of any REL tournaments in Florida that does not fill up and has a waiting list.

Again!!! get in touch with the site owners at the sites or clubs you want to ski at and ask them to hold class C tournaments or rounds! If enough of you are in it will happen.

I tried a couple years ago to hold 2 rds of C slalom ($45) at Cory's in conjunction with my Florida Inboards REL tournament and no one entered!!!

If enough of you want it to happen then make it happen!

Reminder there are 16 Class C tournaments left this year in the state of Florida. I also think that this year there was more C Rounds of all events then in years past.

Promo boats are not that hard to obtain! the problem is the tournament directors not submitting towboat requests with their sanctions, have sat in most all national tow boat meetings in the last 20 years and this perceived issue comes up. Answer again is that tournaments are not submitting requests! how are the promo coordinators supposed to send boats with out request where to send them??

 

 

Last evening I got a unique experience skiing out of my element with a Dr. Here in PC that was a tournament skier back in the 70's and 80's. This gentleman age 74 owns and still skis behind his 78 SN in the back salt water bay's and coves here in Panama city. the boat skied very nice at 35 mph free skiing. After the evening was done sitting around the pool with a adult beverage he asked me about a ski club here in our area I said welcome to the Emerald Coast Boat and Ski club! Check us out on FB!

It take's root! and maybe will flourish as the good Dr. want's to get back to turning buoys and get his family and others involved.

Membership can grow we just have to open up a few perceived closed doors. But I and most all who participate in producing tournaments as well as AWSA leaders refuse to adhere to entitlement ideology that many skier's present. Want something in your area then get out and get off the internet and participate in the development. you don't need an invitation only the desire and willingness to make it happen, you might get told no but remember the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Cheers!

[disland]

@llusa tournaments are cheap if you use all volunteer judges and drivers that dont get free anything. If the judges are also the skiers it works. They are happy to do it. Since its class c you can use assistants and spread the load around so no one gets stuck doing all the work. I do let my promo guys ski free. It helps that I have 2 of them here at my lake now. For food we do subway for lunch and a pot luck dinner.

[santangelo]

Echo @Jody_Seal . In S.Florida, 95% of our ELR's have waiting lists and we have about a dozen tournaments a year. The last few years we've tried to organize class C's but could not get enough attendance. This year we've had several new skiers and were able to put together a great Class C event that everyone really enjoyed. If we have the support, we will continue to host a few class C's a year.

[jcamp]

My experience was the opposite of yours @Than_Bogan. I went to this winter's regional meeting specifically to propose a new idea. Not only was it well received by the meeting attendees, but their helpful input made my concept even better.

[jdarwin]

As an LOC, the Class C's are simply to have fun. The stress level is much less than an ELR - as is the technology investment. But, as a lake owner, I SHOULD expect a decent rate of return on my investment. That said, let's take a look at the economics of running a typical Class C that is "affordable" to the average skier. $50 entry for 3 rounds. 25 skiers total. After comping the chief officials and two promo boats, that's $950 in entry fees. In the SCR, we pay a $60 sanction fee (in addition to the AWSA $150 sanction fee) AND $2.50 per skier in head tax. Fuel at $2.15 gallon is $162.50. Food/drinks is another $125.00. Portable toilet is $90 for the weekend. A good rope is $90 (yea, you can amortize it over several tournaments but we always end up buying a new one for each tournament - you need at least two anyway). So, the LOC ends up with $210 for the day assuming they didn't have any other expenses. USAWS (thru sanction and head tax) makes more off the tournament than the folks actually doing the work. So, if you want affordable tournaments, make it affordable (and, economically feasible) to host one. Lower the sanction fees and dump the current year boat rule - no need to have a $60k boat pulling a Class C event. My 2008 SN w/ ZO does the job well.

[lcgordon]

The boat rule is really silly and I have always wondered that.

[IheartJump]

I believe the current rule is an approved boat within 3 years for class C's... How much does USA waterski get from the boat companies? I assume they would not be thrilled if USAws dropped that rule.

 

On the other hand what should the reimbursement be for a non promo who gives their boat up for a tournament putting 10-20 hours on it?

[mjump]

The closest club to us is an hour away and they would not let's us in. They said they were full. We even used usaws to help with no luck. So we spent 6 months and got a permit for a course on a public lake (ocean pond). It is not recorded but it skies well, ran 35 off tonight. So if anyone in the area would like to ski, fell free or send me a pm. Glad to give a pull.

[LeonL]

@LLUSA , how I feed people for &35? I feed lunch to the 6 mandatory appointed officials. Sandwiches or two large pizzas.

[ToddL]

@jdarwin - please excuse the innocence of my question - but as an AWSA Board Member, don't you have more power to lower the sanction fees that a single voice from a member?

 

I have always appreciated USAWS and AWSA positioned people who participate in the BOS forum. However, I see that those who do often "get it" just like in your post above. However, I would assume that the USAWS and AWSA positions are intended to represent the voice of the membership. If this is in everyone's best interest, then why can't your voice drive this forward?

[gregy]

@jdarwin Interesting about Judges and promo boats being comped. In the 80 and 90s I was a promo boat member I ever got comped my entrance fee, ever. Never even crossed my mine to ask.

 

And I only bring this up because I saw something similar really hurt another activity that I'm involved it, offroading. In Texas there is very little public land like in the western states. We make arrangements with private ranch owners to use there property and the ranch owners are doing it for one purpose, $$. We as a club would go and work very hard to build trails, well a lot of people feel like if there working or guiding groups then they shouldn't have to pay. However from the ranch owner perspective he doesn't care why a person or vehicle is on his property, he just knows that a vehicle / person is on his property and they should be paying for that privilege. So in one particular instance we ended up losing the use of a 10000 acre ranch because people who are willing to spend 10s of thousands of dollars on a Jeep but don't want to pay $50 dollars for the weekend to some rancher that is nice enough to let us use his property for a few weekends a year.

 

Whats the big picture here? Are we being petty too. Should lake owner expect a return? There's a lot of up keep in these private lake communities. Some of the owners association fees are unreal. Some of the owner I'm sure have little interest in skiing tournaments.

[LeonL]

As I mentioned earlier, there is one tournament site in KY that doesn't comp promo guys. Their policy is that the boat companies have provided the promo guys with enough already and getting tournaments credits is extra??? We always have, for 20 years now. I believe that with the expense of owning a new boat plus the extra expense of towing, it's the least I could do. If we continue to do tournaments, and lose money in the effort, comping promos won't change.