Help with the 32off gremlin

[h2onhk]

I've read a lot of really good advice and constructive criticism from this forum so I'm throwing myself to the wolves. I've been stuck at 32off for 2 years now. Usually get between 2-4 balls. My 28 pass has gotten more and more consistent each season and feel that if I make a few mistakes I'm still able to work back ahead on the balls to complete the pass. 32 is not the case. One little bobble and I can't recover. I've attached two video links, one of 28 and the other at 32, both on the same set for your viewing pleasure. Help me slay this beast and start another chapter. Thanks!

 

28off

https://youtu.be/ZW9wQB53v18

 

32off

https://youtu.be/ATOIC9QDJeM

[ToddL]

I'm right here with you. Here is what is making a difference for me.

 

Two things:

1) Gates. Start higher up on the boat as the rope gets shorter. You want to then, turn your ski a little further across the boat's path before you load for the lean. With this you will not need to lean so hard. To find how high up on the boat, look at your -32 video and where the rope ends up along the side of the boat at 2-ball and 4-ball. You want to get at least that high on it in the glide.

 

2) Lean Shorter. This is so counter intuitive, but you don't need to lean longer to run -32. Start there. Simply stop your lean at the center-line and let the edge change begin. It will actually happen sometime after the 2nd wake, but your brain needs to initiate the decision at the center-line. As the rope get's shorter the time spent leaning feels quicker and the time spent gliding on the inside edge into the buoy feels longer.

[ToddL]

The lean shorter is crazy hard to embrace. The reality is that as the rope gets shorter, the boat and the whip actually help generate more speed across course without you having to lean longer. You will feel more force during the lean, but that doesn't mean you have to stay in it longer. More force means you will get more out of the same lean. Since you get more out of it, that speed will allow you to edge change earlier, ride the inside edge and handle out and up, then extend before the buoy.

[Chef23]

You can only lean shorter if you start higher on the boat at your gates. With the width you have @ToddL's advice to lean shorter will result in you not getting out to 1 ball.

 

On your pull out you need to get much higher on the boat and get more on your front foot. When you turn in let the ski swing under the rope and get your hands to your left hip. You want your hard work zone to be in to the middle of the wakes then ride the handle out.

 

If you aren't high enough on the boat this won't work though as you won't have enough speed to get out to 1 ball. I feel 32 is a pass you can still run without being high enough on the boat at the gates but 35 is impossible (for me) if that is the case.

 

@ToddL this is the rope length when I start to agree with you that the lean starts to get shorter and more intense but you need the width at the beginning to take advantage of it.

[ToddL]

@Chef23 - see #1 above in my first post. We completely agree.

[ski6jones]

+1 start higher on your gates, progressive turn in with some speed.

[Texas6]

Great Skiing man and a spectacular on side turn. The two things I see hurting you are your start and your offside turn. You still got a decent one ball at 28 but but it's catching up with you at 32. In your glide, your doing two things that are causing you to get too much speed too early resulting in a tough one ball. You are rocking back on your backfoot to bleed off speed just before turning in, which has the opposite effect on your speed towards one. Get up on that front foot and initiate your turn in there instead of rocking back. And the second one isn't as critical, but if you can, relax your arms and get them away from your chest and down low prior to turning in. I did the same thing at 35 and Chet Raley had me correct it and whamo, instant improvement. And onyour offside, your body is getting ahead of your ski and the result is an awkward finish. Think about your right hip, and your right ear getting back to the handle at exactly the same time and I think that might help smooth that offside out a bit

[lcgordon]

Can I ask what Kind of boat that is? @h2o.nhk

[Than_Bogan]

All good advice, but I especially agree with @Texas6 about which elements are holding you back the most. Depending on how ingrained some of these habits are, you might not be far from running -32 just about every time. GOOD LUCK!

[Skoot1123]

I have been struggling with the same items too @h2o.nhk Seems like I can really get 28 off but have struggles with 32 if I don't get it JUST RIGHT. What I have noticed is that it "seems" like I have to let off a bit on the lean because I get whipped out pretty good by the boat. Is it as simple as just getting higher up on the boat and getting that turn in just right?

[ToddL]

I guess @dvskier has different advice based upon the disagree flags?

[wtrskior]

nice skiing, I'd add to the above that your lean coming into 1 ball is extremely aggressive & you don't lean that hard going from 2-3 or 4-5. This is likely a product of being narrow as was already suggested to get higher on the boat, but its causing you to come into 1 too fast, unstable and downcourse, with a loose line coming around the buoy.

 

I would say that due to that overly aggressive lean (which looks cool btw), the boat is reacting aggressively, pulling you out of it too soon and you're riding a flat ski, bleeding speed into the buoy. Not sure if its related but you're then throwing your reaching arm out too early coming into 1 (and to a lesser extend 3&5), with little connection to the rope.

 

think about being high on the boat, smooth turn in on the front foot and progressive lean into the gates, keeping the handle down and close with a smooth and controlled reach into 1 and ski back to the handle on the back side of the buoy.

 

 

 

 

 

[jhughes]

Looks like he is rocking an old Ski Nautique 2001 (model name not year). Hand driven?

[lcgordon]

@jhughes thats what I thought it was

[h2onhk]

You guys are awesome. Great advice and very much appreciated. Everything you observed from the videos is spot on to what i'm feeling in the course. I know the effects of my mistakes but never could dial in on the causes. @ToddL , @Chef23 , @Texas6, @Than_Bogan good call outs on my gate. I will definitely work on getting higher on my gate pull out, not rocking back on my turn in, a less aggressive pull with lower arms and a better edge change going into 1. @wtrskior, Never thought about throwing my releasing arm out too early until you mentioned it. Makes sense. @Texas6 I also like the right ear and right hip analogy on my offside turns. I can feel myself breaking forward to compensate.

 

@lcgordon, @jhughes nailed it. Its my brothers 1988 Nautique 2001 hull. We use it from time to time to have some old school hand driven fun. We use a stop watch on the gates for first few passes to dial in the old air guide speedos and off we go. Don't get me wrong, I love my 196 with ZO. Still getting used to the ZO pull though. Did some reading on here and switched from B2 to A1 on the settings which seemed to help a little bit.

 

Speaking of 196's @Than_Bogan, so sorry to see that happen to your boat. I cringed. And mouse tunnel looks really really cool.

[dvskier]

@ToddL so sorry for the inadvertent disagree. A clumsy move on an iPad, I never noticed it. I may never get close to 32 off.

[h2onhk]

Assuming I get my gates/ball 1 dialed in how do I know when to release and change edge on 2,3,4,5? I feel like my timing is off on edge change at 32 vs. longer line lengths when its not quite as critical. Seems this is happening if I break at the waist or not patient skiing back to the handle and take too long to get connected with the boat.

[Roger]

I think it's all been covered, but I just wanted to say before I even clicked on the video, I thought to myself that 90% of the time when a skier advances to a shorter line and struggles, it's mostly not advancing on the boat enough for the glide (narrow gate). This produces not enough angle AND too much speed. The higher you can go on the boat comfortably, the better your cast out will be and the slower your one ball will feel.

 

I asked Nate Smith who Winters here at Okeeheelee one day about his extreme glide width at 39 and 41 to which he replied "I have to be as high on the boat at the turn in as I want to be at 1 ball, otherwise I'll have to pull long into 1 to get the width and the pass will be over pretty quickly." I've never been to either of those loops, but the advice seems valid for any loop...

[Texas6]

If you get higher on the boat as recommended, and progressively turn in toward the gates, etc etc, you should be able to pull through the wakes and begin your transition as soon as you get through them (many people begin the transition right behind the boat). If you pull too long (which is very common when you shorten the rope to a new length), you'll come in too hot at one ball. That is a big reason the higher pullout helps so much, it gives you the time to create the angle you need, and it gives you all the speed you need to transition, cast out, and reach with a tight line. But being progressive really is important, because if you turn in to the gate too aggressively too early, the boat will pull you flat before you even get through the wakes, and straight toward one ball. Remember to continue to carry your speed and direction and speed outbound as you start to transition, rather than trying to begin turning towards one before its necessary. At 32 and beyond, once you get through the wakes, the transition will happen automatically....keep the arms in and elbows pinned to the vest, do not give them up to the boat or begin your reach too early or it will pull you narrow. I know that was a lot, but you'll feel just what I'm talking about.

[Than_Bogan]

@dvskier (and everyone) It's easy to erase an inadvertent rating. Just click on it again.

[skihart]

IMHO I don't think you are too far from running it. A little higher on your gate is key then you need to start your edge change earlier on both sides. The key for me at 32 is carrying the handle with you to keep your outbound direction and speed. Every couple of weeks I start to have trouble with my 32's and realize that almost everytime I wasn't keeping that handle in during the edge change. (Elbows pinned to your vest). Once I realize that and make the conscious effort 32 starts to get easier again even when I make mistakes during the run which is almost every run! Also on your off side I think you aren't letting the ski finish the turn. If you have carried the handle out and are free of the boat, reach high and be patient as comes around look down course not across to the next buoy. Ski your hips to the handle.

[ToddL]

Ah, @dvskier . FYI - those "reactions" buttons under each post are like toggle switches. If you click on the same one again, it turns it back off. (edit - yeah, what @Than_Bogan said)

 

I was looking forward to a diff perspective, tho. Bummer. Anyways, FWIW - once body position gets pretty good, then timing of effort, plus gates and early edge change - things start to progress quickly. Never say never.

[Shakeski]

Starting higher (come up on the boat more/pull out farther) for your gates is where it all starts - I see a lot of people saying this because it is true. Try that to set your self up for a one ball that you ski around sharper. From the video - it looks like you tend to hit the front of the bouy. One thing I have been working on is mentally trying to hit the backside of every skier ball. It has helped a lot. This is easier to do the better your one is.

 

Hope that helps - great thread!

[h2onhk]

@ToddL after reading the "personal best and oldest age" post saying never would be a crime

[h2onhk]

@Shakeski i like that thought of hitting the backside of the ball mentally. definitely makes you think to get wide. If i could do that consistently my left shinbone would thank-you.

[Chef23]

I think when you get the right width on the gate you will automatically start to get a good feel for when to come off the pull and change edges. If my gates are good I generally don't have to think about it. One of my ski partners spent the winter skiing with Chet and he said to count one thousand and one after you get reconnected to the handle then it is time to change edges. I don't do that but if you are looking for something it might help.

[skihart]

@Texas6 and I must have been typing at the same time, haha. I like they way he thinks!

[Howa1500]

@h2o.nhk what speed is this at???

[bassfooter]

34, according to the video title.

[h2onhk]

Had a chance to throw our portable in late last evening for a quick set. Ran my usually 22 and 28 then on to the green gremlin. Lot of stuff running through my head approaching the gates. First attempt my timing was off due to the wider pull out and had to turn in before the glide had settled. second attempt gate timing was better but not great. I kept the handle down to my lower left hip which in combination with getting wider really helped me get higher on the boat and edge change into 1. I was able to stay connected with the boat longer and release later, but still only ran 3 balls because I wasn't patient and didn't ski back to the handle on 3 leaving me out of position and really late to 4. 3rd attempt pull out glide and gate was the best I ever had at 32. Pull out timing, getting wide, not quite as aggressive of a pull, and edge change right behind the boat left me early and wide at 1 with no slack. actually caught me completely off guard and I buried the ski around the ball and got pulled out. (basically i choked). Ran out of daylight for more attempts but considered the set a big success. Finally felt what it was like to put it all together on the gate and be high and wide on 1. This gremlin is going down this summer

 

 

@Howa1500 , yes 34mph.

[Waternut]

I'm with you. I only run 32off maybe 25% of the time. I see two things and both of them are bad habits and suck a lot to fix. You've got an aggressive turn and pull out but you ride your back foot pretty hard throughout the whole course. It feels secure but when you don't have a lot of weight on your front foot, the ski slips down course more and you end up narrow at the next buoy no matter how hard you try and pull. Start by trying it on open water and just start with riding behind the boat and then progress to a turn in...If you can't confidently ride, in good form (key ingredient), with a little more weight on your front foot, it could be ski setup preventing you from doing what you need to do. Think front knee bent over your toe with your hips forward and shoulders back.

 

The other thing I see is a visual problem. I do it every year at the beginning. It's a confidence thing and not knowing how your ski will react is the culprit. You ski fairly upright in your turns which means you're pretty much skiing until your brain tells you that you can definitely make it around the buoy. Look at the 28off pass...you practically ride flat until you reach the buoy line. The problem is by that point, you can't slow down fast enough and you end up down course and/or 4-5 feet wide at the buoy. Let that ski cast out and use the aggressive edge change to slow you down. Maybe try it a few times with the buoys as low as you can get them just in case you hit one.

[h2onhk]

@Waternut, great observations and feedback. Reminds me of the center of mass and GUT articles I read on here. The security of the back foot is a really bad habit of mine. Definitely something I can work on when we don't have the course in.

[h2onhk]

Bump!

 

-32 gremlin goes down! Many thanks for all the tips a while back. Didn't have access to the course for a few weeks so spent a lot time free skiing and working on my gate pull and and handle position on turn in. Also focused on my offside turn and getting my right hip around back to the handle sooner along with the other items noted in this thread. Finally got a set last evening and BAM! no slack on 1, a solid 2 and the rest was history. Ended up with 2 @ -35. Actually did all this behind my ZO 196 so I know the speed and times where spot on. You guys are great. Thanks again. Super pumped!

[Texas6]

Congrats man that is fantastic!!!

[ISP6ball]

Awesome job!

 

Your next topic will read......."Help with the 35off gremlin"

 

It's a vicious, yet fun cycle, ha ha.

[RichardDoane]

@h2o.nhk You are now ready for the Austin CP, send in an entry !

[h2onhk]

@richarddoane believe it or not back in late June I brought that up to my wife that it would be fun to take the family down to one of these events. She looked at me like I was crazy. (8,6,2 yr old on a plane) I need to get a few tournaments under my belt first and a handicap established. And maybe let the little guy get a year older for my wife's sanity.