Shouldn't EVERY tournament be record capabilty??

[Ralph Lee]

I don't get it, with today's technology, isn't it the simplest thing in the world (and cheap) to have confirmed times and end course video. Why isn't every tournament record capability no matter the level? If the line is measured, the time is good and the boat is straight, its a record. It seems really lazy, what am I missing? Is it all about cheating officials?

[MattP]

http://media.tumblr.com/fe497dd337d9af8479bb6398b9565d16/tumblr_inline_mg6n5ltl6X1rxe4lt.gif

 

[Ralph Lee]

Is not a non record capable tournament just a glorified PB tournament?

[LeonL]

@Ralph Lee spend a bit of time studying the rule book, both IWWF and AWSA, and get back with us.

[klindy]

@Ralph Lee on the surface it seems that your train of thought is possible. Having end course video does seem simple. And with ZO it's impossible to get a bad time since ZO doesn't actually measure the time it takes to get thru the slalom course, it just measures and controls the speed over 259m of water (which SHOULD be the same as the slalom course).

 

The difference is it takes a survey to KNOW if the slalom course is 259m long (and other dimensions are accurate). The officiating requirements are different for various reasons from having a certain experience level in place to making sure there are no conflicts of interest between contestants and officials.

 

It's not the obvious that's the issue. It's the real judgement calls which can easily determine the difference between setting a new record and not.

 

Now if you want to discuss the need for class E, class L and class R ... that's another thread but certainly a valid discussion. As far as the difference between class C and the others, I think most would say there are clear differences.

[PatM]

It takes a great deal of equipment (cost$), setup (man power), and unnecessarily qualified officials to put on a record tournament. In order to grow this sport more there is a lot of talk about doing away with the need for some of the "technology" to run a record tournament. I don't have all the answers to this, but it should be addressed. This is why a lot of sites don't want to do regionals, never mind doing nationals. Running a "C" tournament usually is a lot of fun. I have witnessed first hand the running of a record and I can tell you the people running it are usually 'baked' by the end of it.

Also to the comment about C tournaments, at least in the ones I am involved with, there is a great deal of integrity involved with the officials, drivers, skiers, etc. As a driver and a judge at C tournaments I do feel a little insulted.

[Edbrazil]

Some good comments. Other the need for Senior Judges, slalom also needs gate cameras

for a Record event. Which can be a major pain at some sites. Even Cl. video can be quite

a project for some sites.

The requirements are not quite as bad for other events. But, jumping needs Video Jump,

and tricks needs video from the boat. I have been to recent local tournaments run as

Class C, where manual meters are still used, and worked out just fine.

[Horton]

@MattP for unauthorized use of the Panda

http://media.tumblr.com/fe497dd337d9af8479bb6398b9565d16/tumblr_inline_mg6n5ltl6X1rxe4lt.gif

http://media.tumblr.com/fe497dd337d9af8479bb6398b9565d16/tumblr_inline_mg6n5ltl6X1rxe4lt.gif

http://media.tumblr.com/fe497dd337d9af8479bb6398b9565d16/tumblr_inline_mg6n5ltl6X1rxe4lt.gif

 

 

[MattP]

@Horton just trying to cut insanity off at the pass. Looks like I need to order 2 more panda shirts.

[LeonL]

@"Pat M" I, like you, am always a bit insulted when people insinuate that "C" tourney scores are questionable. The majority of the tournaments that I officiate at are "C",and are run with integrity. The courses have been surveyed, ropes properly measured, boat times need not be mentioned, boat paths are observed and good though not videoed. I do, however, see/hear some rather bad buoy calls at times. That's where the majority usually rules and all ends well.

[Ralph Lee]

@LeonL I've tried to read the rule book, talk about boring!! Seems like every single person on Facebook can afford the technology, seems like anyone who owns or runs a ski lake could afford it to! As far as the senior judges go, we've seen some pretty questionable calls from them lAtely. I think they are great! And I apprIciate them, but I still don't get it

[disland]

The real question is, shouldn't every tournament be class C.

 

Too many skiers are chasing L because the jr masters, jr us open, sr worlds and similar require them.

 

They need to allow class C for these events. Only pro's should require class L/R

[Than_Bogan]

Hm, I think everyone -- including me -- initially misunderstood Ralph's intent here.

 

On my first read, I thought he meant all C's should go away and instead be subjected to the rigors of R. Now it seems like the proposal is more like R's should go away and records should be settable in C's.

 

I don't think I agree, but that seem a bit more sane than my first interpretation. :).

[Horton]

I tend to agree that most class C tournaments are held to a high enough standard for 99.99% of the skiers in the world. Only when scores get close to world record levels do I think the extra scrutiny makes a difference.

 

My understanding of why there are so many L and R events in Florida is because of skiers wanting to be ranked in the IWWF rankings list.

 

It should be noted that at most of the class C tournaments I attended this year there was end course video to aid the drivers. Any poor driving is quickly noticed.

[Ralph Lee]

@MattP why such a dumb question? I might be jesting a little, but if your skiing on an un surveyed or unofficial course, and using unqualified judges isn't that just a fun tournament and should be considered practice?

[Horton]

@Ralph Lee a class C tournament should not be held on a course that is not in tolerance or with unqualified judges. If you are not following the rules and regs I guess that what you consider practice or Class F.

 

Skiers who are at least semi-serious tend to practice on surveyed courses (if possible) and with drivers who drive straight and in the middle (if possible).

[jdarwin]

Don't get me started.....

[bishop8950]

The increasing standards from F to C to E/L/R make sense to me. No need to blow up C, it works for most people. If you want the benefits only earned through E/L/R events then go to them and if not don't. Personally, I am glad IWSF ranking scores and records (Reg/Nat/world) are only valid at events operating to the higher standard.

[Than_Bogan]

Not quite the original topic, but it's gone this way:

 

I wonder if it's true that in regions where the "top" tournaments are mostly C (which include my own East), those tournaments are as careful as possible, but in regions where there are tons of Rs, those designated as C may be taken much less seriously?

 

That's about the only explanation I can come up with for the paranoia that some seem to have about C scores. Of the tournaments I go to, the C scores are 100% legit.

[Ralph Lee]

@Horton I have not followed the different classes of tournaments. I see what you guys are saying, but it still seems a little silly to me. Sacha's score being questioned got me thinking...

[Horton]

@Ralph Lee Sacha is skiing at a crazy high level where tiny things that you and I would not notice could make all the difference.

 

At 41 off a boat path deviation of of 4 - 6 inches is HUGE (good or bad). For most of us that is a daily boat driving error. There are only a handful of drivers on the planet that are really qualified to drive a legal 41 off pass. If I was driving Sacha he would be lucky to run 39 but I am good enough to drive 99% of the Ballers.

[BRY]

"If the line is measured, the time is good and the boat is straight, its a record. It seems really lazy,"

"I've tried to read the rule book,"

"Seems like every single person on Facebook can afford the technology"

"I have not followed the different classes of tournaments."

 

Some classic quotes there. T-shirt in the making? Or just a little trolling to see what can be caught?

 

@Ralph Lee Join AWSA and come out to a tournament. You will most likely have some fun, meet some great people and catch a clue about AWSA's tournaments.

 

 

[Ralph Lee]

@BRY I am an AWSA member and am a certified AWSA driver. I have skied in a couple tournaments and didn't catch the bug, yet...

[BRY]

@Ralph Lee Very nice, great you help out at the tournaments you go to. You just didn't pop up on the USA Water Ski site, no Ralph Lee's at all but perhaps an error.

 

So... which tournaments have you been participating in that use "an un surveyed or unofficial course, and using unqualified judges" and are being certified as C? Inquiring minds want to know...

BTW, neat chart on page 115 of the rule book lists all the requirements for the differing tournament classes. Shows course must be at least measured (typically surveyed now as easier with modern equipment) for C and what level and how many officials.

[thompjs]

@Ralph Lee Sites that I survey every year I have build survey monuments for them. It takes about 6 or 8 hours to build them the first time and do the survey. Assuming you don't have to move any buoys. Subsequent survey may be from 2 to 4 hours. Jump can take that much or more. Often the jumpers at the site have moved the jump and make it more open or closed, etc. which can turn that job into a day. Setting up all the cameras, recorders is often a another full day.

Perhaps you could buy some survey gear ($$$$) and $3000 dollars worth of cameras, and other gear and haul it around from site to site and use up all of your vacation time doing it?

 

Sorry for the snark, but a lot of people in the sport have no idea what all of the tech stuff costs and how hard it is to set up. Some sites are lucky enough to have fairly permanent installations, but if it is a complete set up, it is a lot of work.

[Ralph Lee]

@BRY maybe cause "Ralph Lee" is not the name you will find on my birth certificate. I wonder how many other BOS names are not on the AWSA website?? Maybe my sarcasm was too thick! I think the courses are certified and the judges are qualified. I actually have helped set up 3 different tournaments in the last three years, then left for work when the fun began. If you want yo check my skiing and driving credentials come out to Oregon and I'll give you some pulls at No Name Lake, Lake Windy, Billy Chinook, Powerline course cove, or Lake Koppert in Washington.

[Ralph Lee]

@thompjs Thanks. I understand what is involved in having a site surveyed, but I am ignorant on how often it has to be done to count as an R tournament. I'm surprised the video equipment is expensive with all the technology out there.

[klindy]

If you read the AWSA rule book and the IWWF rule book you'll see that 99% are the same. In fact most of the differences are literally listed near the end of the AWSA rule book.

 

However the IWWF rule book is primarily written to administer various "world tournaments". Also it's the overriding rule book for class L/R tournaments.

 

Surely other countries around the world have their own rule book and others adopt the IWWF rule book as their own. Which leads you to wonder if you ski in "country x" are all the tournaments record level (at least ranking list) tournaments?

 

Personally I think this is backwards. Instead of a whole new rule book for "record tournaments" which almost completely copy the language of the AWSA rule book, it would be a better approach if the IWWF would simply approve any acceptable federation rule book to be able to be used in whatever country the tournament is held. For example, "AWSA rules (including rule 15) are acceptable for class L". Then instead of massive duplication the IWWF rule book can literally be only the rules regarding the administration of World Championshops.

 

Individual federation rule books would simply be a pass/fail if they are acceptable for ranking list scores and world records. Countries with non-complying rule books could change theirs to comply or adopt an "accepted" rule book for tournaments they want to score on the ranking list.

 

It would certainly simplify things in the US.

 

 

[RichardDoane]

@Ralph Lee We'd like to see you at our Broho event come June 2017, can you say "roadtrip" ?

[Ralph Lee]

@ZipZapPaddyWhack Sounds like fun! It sounds like you put on good tournament and your place looks pretty sweet!! I'll ski at Broho if you come down to Molalla in July. Or do you ski in our tournament already?

[Chef23]

Many of the sites we ski here in the east don't have good spots to set up cameras at each end. Most of the sites are natural not man made and one or both ends don't have good access.

[Edbrazil]

 

Some good comments. In the Back When, there were only Jump Records, starting from

scratch with AWSA. The World didn't start on jump records until the mid-1960s. A jump

record (AWSA) could happen in the early days at about any event. And, they did increase

regularly. Some suspicious setups, and post-event work was needed, even to the extent

of calibrating the meter protractors.

 

With the 1973 Nationals, AWSA records in all 3 events were possible, and there were a

bunch of them. In one way, it was good that I just missed qualifying for the event, as

I was totally busy with record forms. Something like 15 National Records there. At least,

there wasn't video to deal with, but a whole bunch of signatures to obtain for the forms.

A full 3-point SL survey was done there. That event was before the Record Capability

standards, which were first applied in 1976.

 

Nowadays, a lot of Class C events are very well-run. Maybe lacking all the video gear,

but usually with surveyed courses. I have been a Tech. and/or Chief Judge at several

New Hampshire events, and I have done survey work, and even monitored Cl. slalom

boat path via theodolite. All I saw at these local events was a determination to get

things right per the Rulebook. But, these should NOT be record-capability events.

[thompjs]

@Ralph Lee When you add up cameras, cables, computers, tvs, monitors, digital dvrs for three event L tournament it is a lot. This year I bought 4 sets of digital water proof wireless rigs that really, really work and that was $850. Plus I have spares since a lot of this gear is not available at Wal-mart when it rains on it or a 4 wheeler runs over it, etc.

 

For Class C here in Houston all of our courses have been surveyed over and over and are not an issue. For slalom you can put up end course and a TV pretty cheap and you are really close to L -- other than judging gates with video. Who misses gates anyway?

 

[klindy]

@thompjs with enough judges you don't need video for gates.

[Ralph Lee]

@thompjs OK, I believe you guys. :# At first, I genuinely thought it should be a really simple feat to make all tournaments "R" capable, understanding probably 95% of the waterski community have no desire or need to do so. I still HATE the thought that some events with pro caliber athletes and officials, are not quite, but almost 100% official. Too bad end course and gate video isn't more feasible, cause I have witnessed it keeping the drivers on their game if nothing more.

[thompjs]

@klindy Enough judges is the reason we end up with gate video so much!

[klindy]

true but gate videos are not required.

[thompjs]

@kindy Of course you are correct. At the tournaments that are L in Houston we usually don't have enough Regulars and Seniors for 5 judge setup.

 

 

[klindy]

Well also gate video IS required for class R. So I do suppose it depends on what level of "Record Tournament" is being discussed.

[RichardDoane]

@Ralph Lee that's a good trade, sounds like a plan, I haven't been to No Name in a couple of years, and Bob W and Dennis are a couple of my hero's BTW

[Ralph Lee]

@ZipZapPaddyWhack sounds good! Yes, Bob and Dennis are two of the coolest people I've ever known. The last 3 times I rode in the boat Bob ran 38 off straight up the line, that's at 68 years old!! The guys a stud!

 

[Horton]

@Ralph Lee rarely do the world's elite skiers ski in class c events. Generally the classification of the tournament fits the level of a skier. I personally expect good judging and straight boat paths and I get those at C events. L and R event cost more usually so I rarely attend them.

[Ralph Lee]

@Horton if you can get 3 at 39.5 you are one of the worlds elite skiers, but I understand.

[skidawg]

Calling @Horton one of the world's elite skiers will earn you a panda!!!!

[Ralph Lee]

@skidawg It wouldn't be my first. I've known so many great athletes who became skiers and have never made it through 35 off. Getting into 39.5 is very special and it stings to say it, cause I'm not a tournament skier, but turning 2 ball in a tournament (not practice) is something you should put on your grave stone.

[skidawg]

Yes, but NEVER admit @Horton is elite level....NEVER!

[Horton]

@skidawg shhhh

[Ralph Lee]

@skidawg I just realized @Horton is only skiing 34mph, there is nothing Elite about that! My apologies.

[Horton]

Besides the fact that he runs about 9 more balls than I do @skidawg and I really are the same level

[skidawg]

Same level of Beer Taste perhaps? Yes, I admit if @horton weren't vertically challenged he would most likely be able to run as many bouys as me. (painful to admit)