Success Stories for those stuck at 15off

[gregy]

Have you ever dropped at the end of a pass and said to yourself "I'm a better skier than this". I was.

 

This is my success story of how I went from 15off to 32off in 1 year. Not bragging, more so people wanting to improve can know what's possible. After not skiing for over 15 years I started missing it. Well as fate would have it I happen to sit next to someone in a restaurant that was wearing a University of Texas Waterski team t-shirt on and introduced myself right away. It was @ToddL, not sure if he remembers it, he told me about a ski school he ran locally. This got me really thinking. So when summer came I dug my old ski up and headed to ski school. I was nervous I wouldn't get out of the water, but I did and made some attempts at 15off 30mph. In another twist of fate turns out one of my co-workers had a MasterCraft and did a lot of free skiing. That was about about 6 years ago. We started skiing together and blindly set our goals to run 28off. We thought it would take a year or so, but 5 years later I was struggling to run 15off 32mph and my buddy had pretty much given up on the sport. On top of that I had some non ski related injuries that had set back my training.

 

Over those 5 years I think I can say I built a good base and improved my understanding of Slalom theory. I got some coaching from pros when they came to my area, Seth Stisher, Andy Mapple, Wade Cox. Its hard to learn a lot in just a couple of sets though, but I picked up a little from each. I ordered all the videos I could find. Spent countless hours on BOS reading and youtube watching videos. For those thinking that I'm some super athlete, I usually was one of the last kids chosen for teams as a youngster. My family had a lake house though and I had a knack for water skiing early on. I only wish I had known about ski schools as a kid.

 

So 2014 was almost a bust due to injuries and life. Summer 2015 wasn't going well either. That is until I met @parkerc2112 and his girlfriend. We had similar work schedules and we able ski 2 to 3 days a week and ended up only missing a few weeks all winter. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

 

Summer 2015 is done, I am sitting in the water after just struggle through a 15off 32mph pass thinking, I'm better than this, what's it going to take to improve. First thing I did was start videoing every pass and studying it. Next thing was sending some videos for coaching to Chris Parrish (who I pick specifically because he was LFF like me). CP gave me a few pointers mostly on gates. Gates was the key. Before long I was running 22off 34mph occasionally and one or two at 28off. Summer 2016 I started running 28off some. I ended up getting around 4 ball on a slow 32off as my best. @RazorRoss3 gave a pointer on the gates that added some more consistent. Ended up getting 3 @ 28off at BOS tournament, I was running it, went inside 4 ball.

 

Fin Whisper Book was probably one of the single biggest thing that improved my skiing I was one of first to get one and it was worth every penny. I highly recommend it to anyone wanting to improve and be ready to experiment.

 

I also keep notes on setups and what I worked on for techniques, what worked and doesn't work. Sometimes I would go out with specific plans for correcting a problem. I might identify a problem and have three things I want to try to solve it. I use a RainWriter waterproof notebook but more and more I just use my smartphone.

 

Same day I did coaching with Mapple I was able to try a 2014 Vapor with the Wilson brothers. I skied better the first set, I was sold. I ended up getting a 2015 Vapor which I was running 22off on. I later got a 2016 Vapor which is what I started running 28off on. Definitely have to give @brooks some credit for success with setups and being available for a demo day. @Chris Rossi also helped with setup info as well. I was more of a set it to stock skier before, but I found a properly setup ski can really help with developing technique and the setup my need to evolve with your technique.

 

So to sum it up what worked for me:

 

1. Skiing partner that is dedicated as I am.

2. Video tape passes and study them.

3. Video coaching. @CParrish43 thanks.

4. Skiing 2 to 3 times a weeks through the winter, usually 2 sets each time.

5. Some tips and discussions from other skiers.

6. Reading BOS specially @jhughes thread about what the heck is so hard about 28off. Wouldn't of happened without BOS.

7. Get some professional coaching when you can.

8. @SkiJay Fin Whisper book, This was absolutely one of the most important things.

9. A properly setup ski. I almost gave up on the 2016 Vapor, so it makes a difference.

10. Take notes. Track setups. Note what works and doesn't for technique etc.

 

Each of the above was a part of my success. Remove any one of them and I'd still probably be at 15off. No special advantages, just a commitment to improve.

 

Anyone wants to tell there story feel free.

[ToddL]

I do remember that, @gregy! :smiley:

[cragginshred]

Funny my story is similar and using a Vapor too! Private water, better coaching, more skiing and the ***-19*** loop got me into -22 in a few months.

 

I have never been in the presence of 'pros' but my buddies telling me to get up on the boat more and 'keep back arm pressure' ect is really helpful and allowed me to have the best summer skiing to date!

[KRoundy]

This is awesome. Thank you for posting it. I am just getting back to skiing now and just had a very humbling weekend at a private ski lake. But I am improving and this note really gives me the motivation to keep working at it. Thanks!!!

 

Just for my information - how do you video your sets? I know that this is something I should be doing. GoPro? iPhone? Other device? I'd like to know what works, without having to spend stupid amounts of money. Thanks!

 

Kevin

[gregy]

@KRoundy a lot of people use Wakeye which is on the advertiser list at the top of the page as a tracking device. There's some other options. Wakeye has options for phone holders. I think the newer GoPros or ok but the older GoPros didn't have much zoom and had the fish eye effect. I have an older video camera I got off of craigslist. There is threads here on video cameras etc if you do some searches.

[sunvalleylaw]

This story is right in my wheelhouse. Thanks for posting it!! Going to use it for my own planning.

 

The skiing year around part will be hard to pull off in the central mountains of Idaho, at least waterskiing. But you never know. Could always schedule a trip.

[Jaypro]

skiing year round would be tough here in Vermont! Congrats, I hope to make similar progress, thanks for posting.

[sunvalleylaw]

@gregy Thanks for this. You asked for others to tell their story. I will not repeat boring details here. I am a long time freeskier that decided to really learn the course and discovered that wasn't so easy. I am now making progress and increasing speeds at 15 off. I hope, just for fun and the sake of progress to ski my max speed of 34 at 15 off this year. And play with 22 off at slower speeds. Maybe try 28 off just to feel it and get a sense what is necessary this year too, even if I am nowhere near making it. With a reduced speed from 34 of course. I definitely have a goal to reach 28 off as soon as I can.

 

I found the @jhughes 28 off thread and will link it here for reference. http://aqasports.squarespace.com/new-blog-1/2016/3/21/rax60e347tpeg2wyvbei4lixaxhptf

 

I also found what looks like a good suggested progression to consider at this website Arturo Nelson:

http://aqasports.squarespace.com/new-blog-1/2016/3/21/rax60e347tpeg2wyvbei4lixaxhptf

 

Basically, it suggests shortening the line more first before increasing speed too much. I may mix it up a little and not take this as gospel. But it gives me an idea of a progression. If anyone has some thoughts on progression, please let me know.

 

Thanks again for the thread!

[sunvalleylaw]

Hey, did you use a rope with the in between practice loops to help the jumps between lengths? Did it work for you?

[gregy]

I didn't use the between practice loops, but I just ordered one to see if can help me get through 32off. I ran 32off 32mph twice last time out, 34mph still alludes me.

[6balls]

Practice loop rope is a lot of fun. It's one of those things I don't understand why more don't have/use one. I think skiers want that next legit length so bad they don't want to do anything in between. Sometimes their attempts at that next loop look horrible, however, they are just practicing a mad scramble--that's no good.

Why not have the options in your rope? You don't have to use 'em but they are there...if you want to have some fun and change it up sometimes it's worth it.

[Dacon62]

Getting one for next season. Could see that it would be a big help to move up the line. When your scrabbling at a shorter line length form goes out the window and it's hard to work on correct mechanics to make the pass consistently.

[sunvalleylaw]

Bumping this, as I do not see much progress this season yet, at least in the course. And that is hardly surprising, given my lack of course time. So I came here to read about someone who broke out of the 15 off cage.

 

Even though I think my form has improved, it still has work to go. I can work on form free skiing. But then I need to be able to bring it into the course. I need a couple things off your list. First is, more course time. I need to figure out a way to put that in my control. Especially with a dedicated training partner willing to go out at least twice a week. And keep working on the stuff @twhisper has coached me to do. And video passes for further coaching, reality checks, etc. From there, I will see about things like messing with my setup, etc. Right now, my ski seems fine for me. For me right now, it seems more about timing, and keeping hips and center of mass connected to the handle better. And I think this will get easier as I get more time in the "terrain" of the course so that it is just another ski run and not something that seems unusual. Thanks again for putting up your story. Otherwise, a guy could get discouraged and think about giving up. Not me though.

[Joeprunc]

@sunvalleylaw - I broke out of -22 earlier year. Now running 95% of my -22 passes, and consistently getting 3-4 at -28. (Beginning of the year my opener was -15 @32, working to -22 @34.)

 

I was banging my head against the inconsistency of -15. By the time I was getting to -22 I was too tired or my head wasn't in it. One day a ski buddy told me to start with a soft -22 at like 33.5 mph. I found this was easier to run than the -15, haven't put the red line on since. My opener is -22 at 33.8 now and then second pass at 34.2. I will never get paid to ski, but having a softer speed has made skiing much more fun for me, and helped me get to the next level! I'm right around the corner of getting -28 also ;)

 

I can attribute this jump to very similar things as @gregy

1) I have not open water skied, only stuck to the course this year. In the past I had a few friends that always and only open water skied, they are injured this year so I haven't been on the boat with them. Last year I was dabbling at -22 and noticed that open water skiing was messing with my course skiing. My season started late (July)

2) Skiing with better skiers and with GOOD drivers. Make sure the driver knows you want him to give you a good pull, not coach you.

3) Focus on one piece of advice at a time. Everyone has numerous flaws in their technique, work only on one at a time.

4) Bought my GF a new ski and she is now hooked and wants to ski more.

[akale15]

@joeprunc my story is almost identical this year.

 

Started the season off with an opener of -15@30 and was regularly working my way into -15@36. After most of April, May, and June I was fed up, had to do some traveling for work and was off the water for about 2 weeks. I came back open minded and focused on correcting the bad habits that kept me from dropping the -15 line length before. After about a week of running 95% of my -15@36 passes and getting a few at -22 my ski partner @bbrannan suggested dropping -15 entirely.

 

I now open with two passes at -22@34 before jumping to 36. Since making the change first of July I can honestly say I haven't missed but just a few passes at -22 and getting 3 at -28 quite regularly.

 

Since I was starting to get into -28 I also decided I was going to reward myself and ditch my 8+ year old ski for a D3 ARC and have been extremely happy with the decision. Although I haven't ran -28 yet I know with some more coaching and water time it'll happen soon.

[Keith_Menard]

I did a session with Brooks a bunch of years back (trust the glide!), but I struggled to get time on a good course. We could wake up at the crack of dawn and still have some jackwagon ski through the middle of it. This winter I took 3 sets at Matt Rini's school (arms straight...no...straighter) and this summer I was lucky enough to be taken in by some great skiers and people.

 

This weekend I got my PB of 5 balls @ 32mph, -15. I set a goal this year of a full pass at 34mph....not quite realizing how hard (or fast) that might be :)

 

Going back to Orlando in a couple weeks for a few more sets with Cole @ Rinis place...We will see....but I tell you I was over the moon when I came around 5 ball...struggling at 26 the beginning of the season...it felt great!

[akale15]

@Joeprunc I have gone through a very similar progression as you this season. Started the season with an opner of -15@32. After running a lot into -15@36 but not having much success with the -22 pass it was suggested to me on dropping the -15 and work at -22@34. I now open practice with two passes at -22@34 then to 36 and have missed just a few passes at -22@36 since making the transition (a little over a month now). Currently stuck at 3 to 4 buoys at -28 but its just a matter of time...

[sunvalleylaw]

This is a great thread. Thank all of you for sharing your progress and what has worked for you. The common thread seems to be quality course time after/during fixing fundamental form issues. I think some open water to work on the form, and being aware of my body position, arms straight, etc. is good for me, complemented with plenty of time to get used to it in the course and carry it into the course. I fear that only beating my head against the wall in the course may hamper progress for me. In his analysis of my video, TW suggested that until I can really change my break at the hips off the wakes heading into the ball, I will have a hard time progressing. So that has to happen first. All paths are slightly different.

 

PS, Apparently, I am now a mega-baller. Yay! Now, if I can just break out of 15! :-)

[Keith_Menard]

I really do think this is a great thread...for years I always thought of this forum as the playground of 36 and short line :)

[z_skier]

Awesome thread. I myself am still in those early stages of this wonderful sport and its sick to be able to see and relate to the same process.

[Chef23]

This thread https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/20130/whats-first-faster-or-shorter has some good thoughts on how to break through 15 off. Even though it is focused on 36 mph I think it applies equally for 34 mph. When my son was working on 36 we spent some time skiing slower shorter then wound up dropping 15 off starting him at 32 22 working into 36 28.

 

Last night I started working with one of the guys I ski with on this strategy. He has run 34/15 a few times but he is far from consistent at it. Hopefully this will help. Given that the new scoring doesn’t penalize this strategy anymore I think it makes sense for tournaments as well.

[Dacon62]

Progressor rope with loops between the regular loops was a great tool to success in shortening the line this season.

[kingshredd]

This is a great thread for me as well. I conistantly get -15 @ 30 but struggle at 32mph, and I know for me this is edge change and keeping outward direction after 2nd wake. I am curious also to hear what level Ski people in this thread are on. I am on a HO VTR 68. Am I over my head with this ski? I ski the course twice a week from April through October on average.

[Than_Bogan]

@kindshredd

"edge change and keeping outward direction after 2nd wake"

 

I would be quite surprised if either of those is a key thing holding you back from running 32 mph. Use better leverage to build better speed through the wakes and you won't need to think about anything between 2nd wake and buoy until you get to -28.

 

Good luck and have fun!!

[ALPJr]

@kingshredd I'm on a 68" VTR. 6'2" 170lbs skiing at 32 mph. Works well for me. -15 through -32 (on my best days). It took me about 20 sets to get it dialed in for my style and now I feel really confident on it.

[Chef23]

@kingshredd I agree with @Than_Bogan if you are struggling at 32 mph and 15 off I think you need more angle and speed behind the boat. Without video I would guess you may be hunting the buoy somewhat probably particularly on your offside. Pretend the buoy is 20 feet before where it is and 20 feet wider and target getting toward that. If you do that you will build more speed and angle.

[ShererSkier]

Just found this thread and it’s a lot like what happened to my brother @PacMan and I. We had been skiing all our lives and suddenly decided we wanted to try the course. One of the camps here puts a course up in the summer so we pulled the boat out and went early one morning in 2015 to give it a go. We were both pretty confident in our abilities and decided to just start at 15 off 34mph. Both of us took a couple tries before we had the timing down but then we started making probably 50% of our passes. After we went on the course one more time that year we decided to buy a portable course the next year.

 

The entire 2016 summer was spent at 15 off and a few ragged passes into 4 ball 22 off. I think my bro made 2 or 3 at 28 off. Both of us spent the end of the summer analyzing the video we had taken and reading BoS to find tips or advice. The entire winter we read BoS almost daily to better understand the slalom theory. Then we bought fin whisperer and learned a lot from that.

 

The beginning of last summer we decided to slow down to 32 mph to get a better feel for the timing and get a better stack and form through the course. It worked great with both of us and started running into 32 off fairly quickly and regularly. Unfortunately we didn’t have a chance to get on the course the last couple months of the summer but we were enthused and determined for this year. Now we are both getting into 32 off back at 34 mph and still learning and improving. It helps that both of us are really good at understanding theory and are able to apply it when one of us critiques the other. This is probably the first sport we’ve not fought about who is better haha.

 

Having a ski partner that is always watching for ways for you to improve is awesome. This website has also been the best teaching tool for us and there are way to many to list but thanks to all the slalom gurus on this site! Can’t wait to ski the course tomorrow!

[kingshredd]

Thanks for the input guys. I am heading to the lake tomorrow and i will take your advice with me. If i can get some video then i will try to get it posted up.

[hemlock]

I would like to give a shout out to Trent Finlayson.

This was maybe 8-10 years ago. At the time, I could get into mid 28 off.

But never run it.

He was nice enough to come to our lake as our local club brought him up.

All I remember from the session is that he said to maintain the stack always.

 

And he meant from get out of the water, and when you exit the gates back to the dock... stay stacked.

Always something I will never forget and has gotten me to eventually run shorter line lengths. :smile:

 

 

 

[sunvalleylaw]

@hemlock , that is really what it is all about, isn't it? I know how to do it on the snow, and kinda on the water, but not completely. I need to complete my learning on how to stay stacked no matter what, while resisting the boat, keeping hips and center of mass connected to the line, rather than moving with gravity. Then hopefully, I can remain stacked at all times.

[kingshredd]

Ok, success has been had. A couple weeks ago after my first pass of the evening the guy who coaches me said, ok we are cutting rope and 22 off it was. I completed the pass on the first go and have been mostly getting it since. Tonight was the best success yet making 6 out of 8 passes and getting more patient and smoother on each one. Still don't have any video yet, but I am deffinetly stoked to have broken through with about another month left in our season. Using the better leverage through the 2nd wake that @Than_Bogan suggested and I have been plenty wide.

[Fraser]

I subscribe to the @twhisper methodology and focused on a couple key items (body position at the ball and through the wakes). Skiing most of my passes slower (4 of 6) and then the last couple at my higher speed. Started the year having to reduce the speed to 28mph 15off to make my passes. Due to injury I am now done skiing, but I progressed from 28 mph 15 off to 34 mph 15 off and completing about 50% of the time, with a pb at 4.5 22off 34 mph. Our season starts mid May.

 

 

Focusing on one aspect or one actual technique at slower speeds. Example: chest and handle high at the ball. Has helped me sink that form in. But I would say the hardest part of skiing is taking the coaching you trust and applying it to everyday scenarios with 20 different coaches around you. You mentally have to learn how to acknowledge them and not listen or set the rules for the ski before the advice is presented. I now tell people what I am focused on and how the pass will go (no speeding up boat driver!) so they focus on watching me execute those items vs their items.

[Chef23]

I have been working with one of our regular ski partners late this season on a strategy someone else laid out I think by Arturo Nelson. This is a skier who has been stuck pretty much at running 2-4@ 15 off 34 mph for several years. We started having him work on running 30 mph 22 off then when that got clean we added 32/22. Once he could run 30/22 and 32/22 cleanly we added 30/28. When he could run that we went to 32/28.

 

Due to a tournament we set up a plan for the tournament to run 30/15, 30/22, 32/22 then tried 34/22. He had run 34/15 in a tournament a couple of times but got to 2@34/22 in one of the rounds which was a PB for him.

 

Just last week he ran 30/28 for the first time and in another set because the season is winding down took a crack at 34/22 again and got around 4 and if he didn't get anxious and started staring at 5 ball behind the boat he would have run it.

 

I think this strategy helps greatly as you need good technique to run slower speeds and shorter lines but it is more forgiving to work on at the slower speeds. With zero based scoring I could see this person not running 15 off at all but running 22 off increasing speed.

[jhughes]

@Chef23 I don't know about that strategy, I've never seen it work. Way too much time at slower speeds, and speed changes every single variable in the skiing equation. Folks stuck in this phase generally have a gate denial problem, focusing on everything but the gate. Out hard on the back foot, back foot heavy glide, narrow, back foot turn in, and narrow throughout. Every time. Get a good high gate at 34/15 and ski it wide and early. Then hit 34/22. A 22 with a decent gate can be wrought with errors and still be run consistently. A narrow, crappy gate and the guy is running on a garden-hose width of margin for error like somebody running -39. 34mph is the playing field (at least for us, and keep in mind we use artificial gravity here in the form of the boat for potential energy) so they should play at 34 more often and get their gate right. IMHO.

[BlueSki]

The number of kids that I have seen cut the rope before hitting max speed at tournaments is not immaterial. They tend to be the kids that had success in B1/G1 and are adjusting to the higher speed of a new division.

[Than_Bogan]

-28, at any speed, gives you a lot of feedback about how much your gate sucks in a way that -15 just doesn't. I think this strategy is a great way to move past "gate denial."

[Kevin89MC]

What a great thread! It is good to see a lot of "midline" skiers on here :)

My story: First time in a course is 1999, couldn't quite run 28 @ 15 off. I thought I was a pretty good freeskier, but wow the course was so hard, but also very addicting! Spent many years struggling to make 15 off at 30. Best I could get was 4@15 off, 32 mph. We didn't know any better, as we would usually spin at one or both ends, often running 3-4 passes in a row. Pretty gassed after the second set! Didn't get much course time either, just a handful of times each year.

 

Then in about 2007 I met a friend who was a really good skier, and noticed that he sat down at each end, every time. I thought, how novel! Maybe I should try that! Joined a local club that has a private lake in an old quarry, skied a ton with him and jumped up 2 passes by the end of the next year, getting 4@22, 34 mph. Got a new ski (went from a KD 7000 to D3 Nomad RCX) and within a few years got 2@32 off. Broke that ski and got a D3 Z7, love the ski! Maxed out at 2.5 @32, but it sure isn't the ski holding me back, but my form is! Haven't skied as much the last few years, lucky if I get into 28. Gotta work on getting a better 22 pass. Usually too quick to get into 28 where the wake is better (no bump). But when I run 22 correctly, I hardly notice the bump... guess I better work on 15 and 22.

 

By far the best though is I got one of my daughters hooked on it. She's getting close to running 15 off at 25 mph. Ironically she just tried 22 off on accident because I forgot to switch the rope back, and she liked it better! One big bump to cross rather than 2 :)

[Dacon62]

What @Than_Bogan said!

Poor gate, poor handle control and skiing narrow all really start to bite you at 28 off.

Started the season at 15 off and with the help of video instruction and a progressor rope managed to run a few 28s this year but lots of slack and not pretty at all.

Went back and watched Terry Winter at 1/4 speed and really paid attention to his handle control off the wake and into the turn.

Started doing what I think he is doing and really pressing the trailing arm into the ribs which keeps extra tension on the line on the edge change. Wow, what a difference. Getting wider, less slack and more speed.

[Chef23]

@jhughes you need to fix the fundamentals as at slower speeds. Sometimes the slower speeds help work through that. The speed can make people tentative behind the boat which impedes progress. Errors are less painful at slower speeds as well.

 

We had Jaret Llewelyn at a clinic a few years and he was recommending it to skiers struggling with 34 and 36 15 off, I skied with Lucky and he suggested it as a good training aid. I also stumbled on it with my son when he was returning from an injury. Instead of rushing back to 36 mph we did a lot of work at slower speeds and shorter line lengths. 30 mph 35 off to 34 mph deep 32. When he went back to 36 mph he blew right through 22 off whch he had only run once before.

 

I am not suggesting it as a way to avoid fixing fundamental flaws but rather as a way to help fix them. Better coaches than me have recommended it and I have seen it work.

[ScarletArrow]

Love the "gate denial" concept...

 

Watched a couple videos of myself from a few years ago and I could not believe how narrow I was on my gate.

 

I agree that speed change in a major variable. I think this gets lost on those who are skiing max speed all the time.

 

4 Things I've done to help breakthrough the 15off wall..

 

I dropped my 30mph pass in practice and started doubling up on 32 and 34mph.

 

I bought a progressor rope from In-Tow and and started running "18off".

 

I run some 18 and 22off at both 32 and 34mph.

 

I bought the Ski-Doc and started using the wakeye app to video myself - holy cow - why didn't I get this years ago!?

 

As an aside...

 

My son skied 28, 30, 32, 34/15, 34/22 this year. After Regionals we dropped 15 off and went 28, 30, 32, 34/22.

 

 

[elr]

Based on years of watching junior skiers - kids that can run -28 have no problem when they graduate age groups and increase spead. The opposite is true if they are struggling to get to speed at -15. I'm recovering from multiple surgeries and am going to find a speed that I can run the course again and go 2 mph slower and work my way to -28, before increasing speed and getting to -28 again. In other words work myself like I would coach a junior now. And if I go to a tournament I'll take full advantage of ZBS.