Judging a driver...

[bigtex2011]

@Horton agreed on the tangled mess. I believe that is impossible to keep the boat totally in the center and that is why there is some sort of tolerance built in for that. I also believe that different driving styles and ski styles may use more or less of said tolerance. Again, my biggest issue is process in which all this went down.

 

For me, I cringe at the word cheating. I can't imagine using that word.. I might be apt to say someone Frank'd up or used awful judgement but cheat... that word that is about the worst

 

Example:

 

When I skied at your tourney in Sacramento skied 3 rounds. 2 rounds were fairly uneventful as far as scores go 2.5@38 and blew the tail out at 35. (which i can do... alot at times). The 3rd round I ran 2 or 2.5@38. When I got back to the dock I was shown my handle was 1/4" to long and I was DQ'd. My handle was measured BEFORE and AFTER every round by the dock crew. Afterwards, I was given a lot of info on how to fix it and heard a lot of stories from other skiers that this has happened to at some point in there history. Many pro's gave me the old pat on the shoulder. I did hear from one person "well we don't want any cheating". It didn't really sink in till I was grabbing my gear. Having had my handle measure 5x before and on the 6th to be slightly out.. Bummer, but I figured that's the way it goes. But when someone even slightly implied that that could be considered cheating it kinda chapped my buoys. Even though it was unfortunate and I lost out on my $7.41 prize. I flew 1500 miles to ski there and probably blew a thousand bucks in California to help that Frank'd up economy. None of that really mattered, but the cheating comment bothered me.

 

 

I too like you and most who compete work hard for my scores. Mine aren't that great. Those who are above me have better scores. I don't believe the skiers above me really have a bunch of help. Even if they had 1 score much different, I believe it all works itself out. I'm worried about the folks that are directly effected by this debacle and I'm worried those who are in a position to judge aren't really giving those people a fair shake. That's my concern. That's offensive to me. I believe to my core that most people, especially skiers, are good and fair.

 

I'm going to do my best to leave this thread alone.

 

I like to ski and I'm ready for spring.

 

Chris Springs Awsa # 600109004

 

 

[ForrestGump]

I get the feeling you guys don't realize how small the tolerance really is. Yes, you can move up to 7.9 inches at a single buoy. But your TOTAL deviation through the 6 buoys can't exceed 19.25 inches. If you move 4 inches at EVERY buoy, guess what you won't pass. So if you move to the max of the tolerance at 1 ball, balls 2-6 will need to average less than 2.5 inch deviation. There's only about 4 of you on here who can see 4 inches of movement of the pylon in an end course video. Yep, driver X moved 4 inches throughout the pass. Damn cheater. Get real! 95% of you can't keep a pylon within 4 inches anyway.

[lpskier]

@Mrs_MS If in driving and "just a girl" is in the boat, and and I'm trying to go for "a feel," my boat path is not my top priority! ;-)

[Horton]

@bigtex2011

 

As far as driving goes the pylon is going to move and it needs to. It needs to move just enough for the driver to deliver the best pull possible. I cannot say this enough – the tolerance is there to allow for error and a smooth pull. If the driver is moving over to the edge of the tolerance or beyond so they can narrow the distance between the pylon and the ball that is out of spec. It is really about intent. We all agree that intent is nearly impossible to measure but we also know weaving when we see it.

 

As for Sacramento you were clearly not cheating and it sucks that someone said that. That is bullshit. No one was happy to see you get DQed. The flipside of that is the concept that any sport is just a bunch of arbitrarily rules. Someone decided that he balls are 11.5 meters from the center line and that the boats should go 55k or 58k and that a handle is something like 4’11”(+/-). These are the standards. If we all work within the standard than we have a fair playing field. There is just no other way to run a sport.

 

[Horton]

@BoneHead that is the record tolerance?

 

Outside of Florida I think most tournaments are Class C and there is often no camera on the boat or anyone watching - so the tolerance is really "the best the driver can do that day". I do not think we can ask more. If you drive like a drunk orangutan and you are doing your best I guess that is honest. My issue is if you can put the boat right down the middle AND give a great pull but chose to weave.

[ToddL]

Good story, @bigtex2011 Chris, and you're not a cheater. Your story adds depth and understanding about why there are such strong reactions this recent instance about boat path. Cheating is a dirty word.

[ForrestGump]

@horton Yes, IWWF record tolerance is 20CM(7.9 inches) at any one buoy and 49CM (19.25 inches) total deviation measure at the 6 buoys. Sure you can move almost 8 inches. Once. Then, if you want it to be a record capable pass you can't move more than 2.25 inches on average for the remaining 5 buoys. You're acting like a driver can move 7.9 inches per buoy, weaving his ass down the course. If I move 7 inches at one ball, 7 inches at two ball, then I've got 5.25 inches left to give through the pass. That is pretty damn tight. So to say someone who goes to the max deviation is cheating is bullsh$t. The max average deviation PER BUOY can only be 3 1/4 inches on average.

 

You know what, if anyone here can drive a 39 1/2 or 41 off skier with 3 1/4 inches of movement, by all means step yo butt up and start driving more.

 

This entire conversation is one of the many reasons I told the AWSA to remove all my judging, scoring and driving ratings and quit sending me emails to get my clinics done. WTF wants this thankless, no pay job? Not I!

[ToddL]

Great post on tolerances and IWWF. This whole thread started because of a R/L (thus IWWF-rules) event in question. So, quite relevant.

So, a hypothetical cheater might be able to move up to 7.9 to 1-ball, then up to 7.9 to 2-ball, but the remaining 4 buoys would require less than 3.5 inches total, or less than 0.86 inches per buoy for 3-ball to gates. Damn. It just doesn't seem possible and it terribly risky leaving less than 1 inch per buoy later on.

[lpskier]

@Horton @BoneHead Cummulative deviation only counts if you are considering a record. For a score, all that should count is whether you are in or out of tolerance. Or, apparently is someone has a bone to pick.

 

If you drive a solid 6" down the right side of center, alternating being into the skier with wrongsiding the skier, your cumulative deviation is zero. The skier might be hosed but the driver did a damn fine job!

 

 

[gregy]

Is there any driving videos? It would be nice to have some instructional videos on driving technique put out from top level drivers. I've learned a few things from this thread and have already been applying it.

 

I worked for a company that had a very negative policy of firing people for any little infraction. A lot of the folks fired were good workers that made honest mistakes. Once they started being more proactive by doing training or process changes the work environment started getting a lot less stressful. You identify a problem, come up some corrective action. Corrective action could be some required reading etc to reiterate a rule maybe or watching a driving video. Negative policies that are randomly applied will only lead to discourse among the organization's members. I hope intentional cheating is few and far between in watersking.

 

What the saying about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome?

[Milford]

As long as a human being is behind the wheel, these issues will exist. I believe it is the main reason waterskiing is not in the Olympics. Just as speed control has made boat times very consistent, automated steering control would provide consistency far beyond anything we have today. The technology is out there, someone just needs to invest the time and $$ to make it happen. Would love for my wife to be able to jump behind the wheel, set zero off and turn on automated steering control, throttle up, come around the island and let they system take over. That would certainly solve a lot of problems. If you could get the same pull in practice and had the confidence that you would get that exact same pull at a regional or national event, I have to think that would make our sport better. We seem to have a few smart people on this forum, so who wants to run with this and make it a reality?

 

[Roger]

@Milford - "I believe it is the main reason waterskiing is not in the Olympics." It may be "A" reason, but I don't think it's the primary reason. There are no powered sports in the Olympics, I believe that is the reason. There is one bicycle race where a motorcycle pulls them up to speed, but then drops them for the actual race. Skydiving was in briefly, and of course an aeroplane took the jumpers to altitude, but the plane was not a part of the actual competition. Our boats are a direct part of what we do.

[Horton]

@Milford auto steering tech has already been tested on a limited basis.

[LeonL]

I just wonder how much auto steering might cost. I'm confident that it would be cost prohibitive, especially for the people that ski on public water. As @Milford stated "get the same pull in practice" and "exact same pull in a regional or national event."

That just might be the straw that breaks the skiers back, feeling that to get the same pull you would need to shuck out big bucks for an auto-steer system. It might destroy teornament skiing.

 

 

 

[lpskier]

@LeonL @Milford Not to mention taking a lot of fun out of the sport for the boat crew.

[LeonL]

I don't want to sound like an egotistical driver. I don't want to be one of those guys who whined when PP came on the scene and some when ZO appeared, saying "I don't need that, I won't enjoy driving that way". But.....I would see no need to have such a thing as driver ratings. Just put anybody in the seat who happens to walk by. Like @lpskier said.