NCWSA did what?

[Horton]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BQ6KVmajUAC/

[MISkier]

What will they do about sites that don't have a mini-course and are there actually standards for mini-course dimensions?

[Horton]

If the above score is 4.5 with no continuation I guess it seems like a pretty good novice rule. When a guy rounds two ball @ 39 and then goes around the mini course balls for the rest of the pass and get a score of 4 @ 39 that seems wacky.

[Wish]

Can it be done in reverse? Outside 1 ball, 2 mini, outside 3, 4 mini....and so on?

[Lovell]

What could possibly justify this approach?

[RazorRoss3]

Um, why? I mean I know most teams can't field a full slalom team because it's by far harder to teach someone to run a pass than to teach them to trick 200 or land a ride over but the emphasis should be on encouraging people to run full passes slower on combos/jumpers not altering the geometry for the hell of it. And to agree with the above what if the guy ahead of you puts up a true 2@35 and you go out, realize you can't get to 2 ball and ski inside 2 for a half buoy, outside 3, and so on and come out with 4.5? You should have lost to him by getting 1/1.5@35 to his 2 but instead you win because you didn't have to go outside 2 ball?

[The_MS]

Same as INT but they use points per rounded ball.

[Chad_Scott]

Hell just put a 6 buoy handicap like all the other rule.

[Horton]

@Chad_Scott is if i ski at 36 and use mini balls and i run 47 off what is my score?

[Murrski]

Well Sir, you would have had to come out off the dock at -47 because -45 full pull using mini on one side would have netted a 4.5 nc... so your score according to your chart... well, it would be a 4.5 :smiley:

[Murrski]

oh... but plus 6 with zbs so a nice 10.5 would go into the books - lol

[Kelvin]

@horton You do a disservice to what the NCWSA is trying to accomplish when you selectively report 1/2 of the story. This is a good rule and will get rid of the log jam of skiers with 0, 1/2 and 1 buoy at many collegiate tournaments. In fact, I got started in this sport over 30 years ago in novice tournaments that had a mini-course. @JeffSurdej is taking things in the right direction.

 

Here's the entire write-up on the new rule: http://goo.gl/hjochi

 

At the 2017 January board meeting the NCWSA board of directors approved the use of a mini course within the slalom event. The following details should help explain the rule change as well as how the system will be scored. All images contained within this article are not to scale, but meant for visual guides to help with the explanation.

 

The introduction of the mini course will provide a great learning tool for collegiate athletes trying to learn the big slalom course. Providing this within the event will hopefully further incentivize learning to slalom and learning how to run the slalom course.

 

The Mini Course Ruling

 

Optional for LOC in 2017

 

We hope most LOC’s will try and use this new system for NCWSA events in 2017 as we think it is a great learning tool for collegiate athletes trying to learn the big slalom course.

 

Mini course buoys are to be set at 7.5M plus/minus 1 meter.

This gives way to a broad range of pre-installed mini course green buoys.

 

Each mini course buoy is worth 1/2 a buoy.

To get credit for 1/2 the skier must round the mini course buoy and return to the first wake just like full credit is given on the full course.

 

No partial credit for mini course buoys.

This does not change partial scoring for regular buoys.

 

Mini course scoring will only be used on the first pass.

 

A skiers must make 6 full buoys to get a second pass.

 

A mixture of mini course buoys and full course buoys can be used to attain a final score.

 

This mixture must be of consecutive buoys, once a buoy is missed (both mini and regular) no more buoys are counted in the final score.

 

Mini Course Judging and Scoring

Mixing in mini course buoys

 

As we noted in the ruling outline, a mixture of mini course buoys and regular buoys can be rounded by the skier to achieve their final score.

 

[MattP]

@Horton Mini course scoring will only be used on the first pass.

[Horton]

@Kelvin this is the first I heard of it. Purely based on what @MattP just wrote I get it. Now we can all go back to complaining about ZBS.

[Mateo_Vargas]

I heard Polyform lobbied hard for this so they can sell more green buoys.

[jjackkrash]

Its all good.

[RazorRoss3]

And the creepy joke award goes to...

 

@Kelvin, thanks for the explanation, that makes a lot more sense now and I fully support it. Clearing up the 0s at the bottom will encourage teams to field a full five slalom skiers instead of fielding an incomplete team because only 3 of them can round a buoy.

[ToddL]

Last fall at SCR's UT tournament, a crazy front blew in with 20+ MPH sustained winds right down the lake as a head wind off the dock. The few Mens A skiers who were in the first rotation were able to run an opener before it hit. One guy got into -22. He ended up taking 1st or 2nd place because I think no one else ran openers.

 

I wonder if any of those top seed skiers would have taken the mini buoys for the opener, then attempted a tail on the full buoys as a second pass. With that strategy, the skier would only need to get a full 3 on the tail wind pass to equate to a full 6 off the dock.

 

This scenario probably plays out with even more sense if the hard wind was a tail wind off the dock.

 

Would be fun and tempting for a skier faced with degraded conditions and opening pass at risk.

[rayn]

@ToddL the rule above says a 6 full buoys must be run to get a second pass.

[Kelvin]

If you go to the link in my post above, there are examples that show you can get the second pass as long as you score something at each buoy. It doesn't have to be a score of 6. It could be as low as 3 as long as it was 1/2 at each buoy to get there.

[RazorRoss3]

@kelvin, but only on the opener right?

 

@toddl, personally I've taken down a 20mph heads and tails in tournaments and put up tournament bests in the process. I think I would undoubtedly be better off skiing full buoys than risking a miss skiing different geometry plus challenging conditions.

[Kelvin]

@RazorRoss3 Yes, nickel buoys can only be used on the opening pass.

[Zman]

I'm with @Chad_Scott Let's have ZBS, pick any speed, ski mini course, full course or any combination of both, opt up, opt back down with higher speed. Can we add that you can request swerving boat path? That would be perfect. Just think how much more fun this will be for judges.

We can call this Burger King tournament skiing. Have it your way.

Before anyone gets their board shorts in a twist, I'm just joking. Sort of.

[ntx]

@Zman obviously you have not been to a college tournament in a long time. (If ever) look at all the scores with less than a full pass. This new rule might be one of the best things to happen to skiing in a long time. This in no way is close to the zbs rule which can easily be fixed by making max speed to the current max of the division.

[ForrestGump]

Having driven, judged and scored numerous collegiate tournaments, I think this is a great rule to get the kids skiing and more competitive with each other. Just because something is being tried that is not the way it's always been done in Florida or California doesn't mean it's a bad thing.

[jcamp]

This just goes to show you why it's a bad idea to freeze the rule book. Every once in a while good rules come about (a category in which I'd also include lighter lines for kids and Boys 3 not having to ski 36mph).

[Horton]

@jcamp two logical good rules in the last few years mixed in with others that a lot of skiers are super mad about. meh. Freeze the book.

[skiinxs]

I think this is a great step to get a lot of the collegiate skiers out of the "try to get outside of 1 ball" mode. From my observations over the years, many never pick up slalom seriously because they don't get much if any practice on a slalom course outside of a collegiate tournament. Once these get the feeling of turning a few balls, even narrow ones, they may strive to do better. It would also be a great idea for grass roots divisions at class C tournaments. Green balls can easily be dropped in for tournament day by dropping in with concrete blocks for anchors. As long as they are pretty close, you are good. The only downside at my lake would be a few more balls to pull when switching between slalom, trick, and jump.

[GK]

Great rule focusing on the novice level of our sport! ZBS benefits the novice to intermediate level of our sport. These rules are designed to keep more people skiing tournaments and that's a good thing. Ohio adopted a mini-course policy as part of our novice rule a few years ago and we saw a really good increase in both young junior skiers as well as wives of shortline skiers who started participating.

[ToddL]

The only negative of this new rule is that many lakes leave their slalom courses in place when practicing tricking on the same lake. Often the boat path for tricks practice is between the turn buoys and the boat guides when there isn't enough room between the turn buoys and shoreline. Having mini-course buoys in place will be a conflict for trick practice requiring mini-course buoys to be pulled then replaced, etc.

 

(Clearly, during a tournament, any slalom course buoys (including mini-course ones) which could conflict with trick course are pulled during the trick event and replaced when needed again for slalom.)

[Zman]

Not that I think the min-course is bad, it is just where it may be allowed. If NCWSA wants it, fine. Maybe Grassroots? But, I really do hope it never finds its way to Class C or above.

No doubt, a great way to get more to enjoy the feel of running a course. I set mine up with the greens last summer for a nephew from up north who only skis when he visits, maybe a half dozens times. He ran it with ease on second try, then smoked it after that. He had a blast and was excited as hell. One more visit and it will completely bore him.

[Zman]

Is there an "official" dimension for the mini? I set mine up 13 feet inside the full course buoys. Got that dimension from @Ed_Obermeier EZ-Slalom web site. Kinda felt like about 3 feet further out would be better. But, no closer. (Don't want them banging off my good buoys).

[mnewth]

@Kelvin Thanks for adding in the post - definitely helps to provide the whole story.

 

My one comment is that as far as I know, there is no 2nd pass unless a full pass of 6 is ran.

 

From the article "A skiers must make 6 full buoys to get a second pass."

 

Those examples even state that they get a "Final" score of 4.5, 3, etc.

[unksskis]

This will greatly improve the participation, fun, and even competitiveness of the beginner slalom collegiate skiers. The only possible downside is the added time it will take, as they likely will have to drop the skier at the end and come back at a normal rate of speed. This saves from so many collegiate skiers driving hours, spending a weekend, spending precious money, all with the hope off getting around ball 1. Scoring zero a couple times, plenty of skiers become uninterested let alone embarrassed, and they stop traveling to tournaments, which usually coincides with later in the season when they are really needed. I'm calling it now, D2 qualifications will come down to the wire, and determined by the bottom feeders who used to just get 0 or 1 ball.

[Kelvin]

@zman, official width is 7.5 meters from centerline (4 meters inside). The tolerance is +/- 1 meter so you should be good to go.

[Wish]

If my daughter wanted to go to a college outside of FL (and not ULM) and was considering (she was) I believe this rule would have tipped the scales a great deal to join a team. Do not see the draw backs at all and see it tipping scales all over the country.

[Bbrandau]

"Mini course buoys are to be set at 7.5M plus/minus 1 meter.

This gives way to a broad range of pre-installed mini course green buoys."

 

We want to add a mini-course to our site, but this is the closest I've seen to anyone attempting to lay out some dimensions ...

 

Quick question ... is the 7.5M in relation to the centerline of the course, or the boat guide line???

 

Thanks!

[Kelvin]

Centerline. Normal buoys are 11.5M from centerline.

[MattP]

@JeffSurdej

We have a number of sites around me that have the Disabled inner course surveyed in.

The IWWF Rule book for the Disabled inner course is

Actual 6.4m - Min 6.272 - Max 6.528.

For the sites that already have these courses surveyed and installed be allowed to use their current courses? The only way to meet the NCWSA inner course would be to push the tolerance of the current course.

 

A 1m tolerance in huge...

 

Thoughts? Thanks!

[JeffSurdej]

@MattP us 6.4 is good

[MattP]

@JeffSurdej awesome thanks!

[GK]

Anyone have good ideas for "mini-buoys" to be used for the mini-course? I'm just thinking a buoy that's about half the size of a traditional turn buoy would be a great option for the mini-course.

[Zman]

@GK I just used standard green Polyform buoys, and underinflated them to keep them soft to reduce chance of injury.

[MISkier]

+1 on the green buoys for the mini course.

[ToddL]

What are the chances that USAWS could migrate to 1 standard for placement of mini-course buoys across all disciplines?

[ToddL]

I bet there will be a few more green buoys purchased this spring than normal...

[ntx]

@ToddL I dont get it. All over this site people complain that there are too many rules. Too many judges, Too much cost to host tournaments. Surveys of the course, end course and boat video. Here is a rule that gives you +/- 1 meter to increase the fun of the sport to the entry level skier that will not impact the results of a college tournament. Now it appears that you want a standard. REALLY. Throw some addtional buoys in, get a few beginner skiers, ski and have fun. 7.5 meters +/- 1 meter is perfect. Anything between 10 and 16 feet inside the existing turn ball is perfect. Here is a idea...... use a rope segment from a long line to a -15 segment. Put one end on the turn ball and the other end at your new mini ball. DONE. It really does not have to be this hard.

[ToddL]

@ntx - no, no. I like the +/- 1m flexibility. I think you misunderstood. When @MattP put it all into context of Disabled IWWF, it made me wonder why not center than wide tolerance around a standard. That's all. I am not sure where else a mini course is specified, but if all were centered around the same spec, that would be nice. Tolerances can be what they are. Truly, dealing with sites with existing mini courses is a consideration, and I am glad that a wide tolerance was promoted to help ease those concerns.

 

So yes, you made a brilliant, readily available solution to dropping a cinder block with a green buoy! Long line segment plus the entire red 15 off segment together = 7M hung on the nearest boat guide is within tolerance.

 

[thompjs]

We used similar scoring for novice tournaments way back. We let them run 4 tries and added them up. Did not even care how many missed. Once someone made a real 6 in first pass, they went into a "higher" division.

[Klinger]

First, I think this is a great rule. I have been a part of collegiate skiing since 2005. There is a large number of skiers face planting between the gates and one ball. A mini course should allow them to at least get around the first one and maybe the second one. Not everyone, but it will help.

 

I have a little background with mini courses that I'll provide only as food for thought. On the lake I ski on, we installed a permanent course through the ice last winter. We put in a mini course at the disabled standards as we have a girl on the lake who is getting into disabled skiing and starting to get a few buoys.

 

While the disabled course dimensions are really good for new beginners, it becomes pretty easy to run the mini course with these dimensions. That is a good thing. But at the same time, it is also still a big jump to go around the full width course. If the disabled course is roughly 16 feet in from the full width turn buoys, I have found that a mini course closer to 8-10 feet in may be a better overall placement of buoys to allow new skiers to start the course but still be challenging enough where it isn't a new completely impossible task to start getting orange full width buoys.

 

In the end, any mini course is better than no mini course. At our lake, we'll keep the disabled course as we have a need for it. If you have no need for it, I would say 10 feet in would be a better placement.