How long should a ski last?

[MinAquaBatSkier]

Going to pull the trigger on a new ski this spring. I want to go pre-owned. I just want to know how much the core will break down over the years? Does this happen? I know with wakeboards the cores break down, but those are also subject to much more abuse. Looking into Radar Vapor Lithiums.

 

Thanks.

[6balls]

As a MN skier with season like yours in WI I turn over every 5 seasons. Typically my ski partner will run my ski a few more years when I am done with it.

Some depends on how much use it's had. Vapor Lithiums are pretty recent u are prob fine there are some for sale on ski-it-again.com

[eleeski]

In the old days, ski cores were made of urethane or open cell honeycomb. Urethane breaks down with flexing and aluminum honeycomb would corrode (when the inevitable water seepage happened - even without corrosion it would fill with water). Snow skis have wooden cores which change over time. Wooden waterskis warped horribly. There are engineering reasons to replace old skis.

 

Modern skis use PVC cores or something better. No wood, nothing open cell and nothing that fatigues quickly. Fibers don't stretch and properly stored skis' resin doesn't creep or deform quickly. So a modern ski should last many years.

 

Skis can get overloaded and break. Not all breakage is clearly visible. Dings and storage rash can change the feel. Binding inserts are a weak spot. Not every old ski will feel exactly like the first day. So replacement might be in order.

 

I've broken my share of skis, beat up plenty more but most of my ski changes happen because the ski has become stale for me. Nothing physically wrong, I just can't get it to work as well. My style is not challenged by the ski any more. A new ski excites me and forces my to expand my skills. Very fun!

 

Get new skis regularly - just for the fun of it.

 

Eric

[bassfooter]

@eleeski - please define "properly stored".

[gregy]

It might be luck, not sure, but my 2016 Lithium Vapor has held up really well. There was a few times I thought for sure I had put a handle ding in it. I've been wondering if it has something to do with the new style of carbon fabric they are using.

[Horton]

@eleeski when was the last time a slalom ski had a honeycomb core? 1980? Only EPs and only for a few years. Was not a good idea anyway.

[ozski]

A ski should only last until the next, better, cooler ski comes out.

[eleeski]

Heat, salt and moisture affect epoxies. That's why wooden boats don't use epoxy in the construction. Solvents also wreak havoc. So don't put your ski away wet and salty in the warm furnace room where you store gasoline if you want it to last 10 years.

 

Since I don't expect my skis to last forever, I never rinse the salt water off, clean the wax off with carb cleaner and use them in the heat of the desert. They last pretty well despite the abuse.

 

Time itself causes problems with some plastics. We've all had old plastic parts just shatter on us. Sometimes there's nothing you can do to preserve a treasure forever.

 

With all that fuzzy evasion of a real answer to @bassfooter 's question, there is a real threat to the life of a ski. Sunlight is the serious plastic killer. UV degrades plastic quickly. Keep your ski out of the sun for sure. High temperatures from sunlight are a known problem. Why skis are black is beyond me. We tested carbon prepreg left out in my desert sun. It got to 170F, enough to soften the resin! I left a black ski in the back of the convertible for a drive. At the end of the drive, the bottom had heated enough to completely delaminate the entire bottom skin. Now I only build white skis and religiously use ski bags. Most structural ski problems are related to sunlight exposure. Keep that ski out of the sun!

 

Eric

[eleeski]

@Horton Actually there were several excellent honeycomb skis. The best and most groundbreaking one was the LaPoint Hexcel ski. I don't know if it held the world record but it was a top performer in its day. Certainly a "good idea".

 

Jobe built a honeycomb/foam core ski that skied quite well. And I believe that Stinger built a nice honeycomb slalom (not positive here - the other skis were ones I rode).

 

Jumpers still use honeycomb. The skins are solid enough on most to resist water infiltration but I've repaired some interesting core damage on some older jumpers.

 

Some trick skis are still honeycomb.

 

Honeycomb is an excellent core material. Not perfect and not the longest lived waterski choice. But worthy of consideration in a new design.

 

@skibrain The EP Comp 1 was one of my favorite skis - back in its time. Might be fun to try yours for a ride today.

 

Eric

[thager]

Testing my memory here but wasn't the honeycomb ski core patented? Seems to me there were some lawsuits from RT and EP skis. Again, pretty hazy recall here.

[Horton]

@thager yes

[gsm_peter]

Hexcel did produce snow skis as well.

Quite nice but degraded a bit faster compared to wooden skis according to my knowledge.

[eleeski]

@gsm_peter My Hexcel snow skis held up quite well despite the abuse of too many bumps. Nice performance but I liked the "next, better, cooler" ski and switched after a couple years.

 

@thager I worked on the last version of the Hexcel Lapoint at Kimball. No legal issues with that ski that I was aware of. Hexcel made most of the honeycomb then so it would be strange to have their design restricted. I enjoyed their products, too bad they moved to filling potholes instead.

 

Eric

[Horton]

I ski maybe 8 sets a week and most of my passes are at 35 off. If I ski on one ski for a year – at the end of that year the ski is not going to be as fast or responsive. If you try to flex test the ski it will likely flex out almost identical as it did when it was new. The changes are very hard to identify but they are there.

 

After 2 years the ski will degrade even more. Most skiers only never notice it because when they get a new ski they never get one that is exactly the same as the previous one they had.

 

Funny how new skis of the exact same model often feel so much better than the old one.

 

[Horton]

@eleeski to the best of knowledge EP was the only company that legitimately used a honeycomb core for a slalom ski.

 

The Jobe and others made a PU core with a small chunk of honeycomb for marketing purposes. (Panda)

 

The EP method actually crushed a flat sheet honeycomb to get it in the shape of a core. I am pretty sure any modern aerospace engineer would say that is a silly idea.

[eleeski]

@Horton The Hexcel/Lapoint slalom honeycomb core was machined to shape with a clever jig to run a skilsaw sideways across the core to make the tunnel. The prepreg was airbagged to the rocker in an oven over this core. Then the silhouette was routed out of the cured sandwich. The final edges were potted epoxy in in a soft mold. (Kris Lapoint is a very creative guy!) The ski was totally legitimate in both construction and performance.

 

At Kimball, we couldn't get crushed honeycomb to work. EP might have had some magic.

 

The EP wingtip was a copy of the silhouette of my ski that Stan was riding when Roger Teeter watched him ski. He just took the RS1 crushed honeycomb and cut it differently. Hence the wings of crushed honeycomb. That ski was quite popular. Dave Curmi who was working on the EP design at the time denies this but I will stand by Stan's story. Crushed honeycomb mysteries.

 

If you are still skiing a ski from that era, get a new ski!

 

Eric

[Booze]

So, back to the original question....does anyone have objective observations about carbon slalom useful lifespan?

Wasn't it a selling point of the early Goode that due to it's construction, it was not subject to the same breakdown typical of fiberglass skis? How much does it depend on 'quality' of construction and material?

I've seen some indication that the carbon skis now hold their flex for a reasonably long time, but when they go, it's abrupt and noticeable. Does the carbon/resin become brittle?

[maxpower220]

Roger Teeter had a son named Jason. He flew with me in the Navy. Had him out on my boat and after seeing him ski, he told me about his dad and their relationship to EP skis. Small world.

[ski6jones]

@Booze, i'd say at the least it's highly variable. I have had a ski go in as little as 9 mos and have another that still feels really good after 7 years. Both were modern carbon skis. I would add that I think a used ski that spent most of it's life at slower speeds and longer line probably has more life left than one of the same age ridden repeatedly into short line.

[Horton]

@Booze there is no answer to your question because every skier uses a ski differently. I weigh 185 and ski a bit heavy. I will ski 200 to 250 rides a year. That is about 7,200 turns. If i use one ski for two seasons (14,000 turns) it will be NOT like new at the end. If you ski 100 times a year and you are at 22 off you will get many many times more years out of a ski.

 

As a side note it was not too many years ago that we talked about skis just going dead. This is not the case anymore.

[DW]

@Booze @MinAquaBatSkier : Carbon fiber composites as a material offer extremely long lifespans in terms of cycle life, so most likely that will not be the lifespan issue. What carbon fiber composites are not good for is point loads or sharp impacts such as a handle ding, which over time can lead to a failure. Other issues that can create a lot of variability in the lifespan of a useful CF ski are construction techniques and human caused variations in making of the skis. Core delamination, material delamination, inclusions in the materials, dissimilar material bonding techniques are all preparation issues that can shorten or impact the life and performance of a composite water ski. So as Horton noted, very hard to give a lifespan expectancy on a ski particularly as the construction process is so variable and has a large possibility of human error built in. For additional reading, check the very same discussion on road bicycles, a topic debated on a much larger sample size.

[MinAquaBatSkier]

Thanks for all your help. Ended up finding a 2015 Radar Vapor Lithium brand new for a great deal. I matched it with a 2016 Vapor boot and RTP.

 

This should be a mega upgrade from my 2003ish KD CR7 Titanium.

[sunvalleylaw]

Was bumping this thread in connection with @Joeprunc 's question of is a new ski going to get him further. After re-reading this, I think I will go plus or minus with @6balls 's rule of 5 seasons. I just got my new ARC this year. My season is probably around as long as his, though I may get fewer sets. Hoping to change that. So, unless something comes along that is really going to help me in my progression, I don't think I need to change out for a few years, up to 5 or so. The size is good for me, the set up seems to work for me really well, and like all D3's, it is built beautifully. So should last a while. Thoughts anyone?

 

(Although I do want to get something wide to keep in the boat, like a Katana or something, to play around on when the open water is not perfect, and maybe even for beginning course skiing practice. My son could use it, and I bet it wouldn't hurt me to practice with it at really slow speeds in the course to learn lines, etc.)

[oldjeep]

Curious how much sun is bad for a modern ski? Only issue I have seen is fading, and my skis are typically in a rack on the boat for 4-6 hours on a ski day since we ski, then cruise, float, etc

Picture from this weekend - that senate is 4 years old and has survived the sun treatment for that long.

 

 

[UWSkier]

I wonder if those lime green neo ski condoms Radar sells would fit into ski racks. UV is really bad for equipment...

[oldjeep]

@UWSkier - there is room in the rack, not sure that they fit tight enough not to be flapping at speed.

[sunvalleylaw]

Due to seeing the black and dark colors fade on prior skis, my current skis are bagged and stowed except when being used at this point.

[grab2go]

Ditto eleeski and DW's comments. The weak link is probably the core and the bond between the core and the skins, provided of course that the ski has not been subjected to other damage or elevated temperatures. A friend of mine rode his 10 year old 9700 at Nationals this year. He skied 3.5 @ 39. It's kind of hard to argue that the life of that ski has expired... I think sometimes we just benefit from switching skis because it forces us to adapt to another ski and we pickup something in the process.

[LeonL]

I skied a RCX for 8 years and saw no degradation in performance. Certainly my skiing didn't suffer.

[MillerTime38]

@LeonL I loved the green ones.

 

Been on X7 since 2012 and still does the job

[BraceMaker]

@oldjeep can answer that in regards to the Goode 9200 ;)... 3 hours. As in setting out on the deck for 3 hours black side up was enough to blister the lamination on the base of the ski.

Things have gotten better with that for sure

[OldGuysRule]

Here's one for the books! I have a ski acquaintance by the name of Kevin Smith. He has been skiing on a Goode 9500 for years. He bought it new when the 9500's came out years ago. He skis at least one set everyday in the summer months at his home site on Champion Lake/McCordsville, In. Over the years the ski needed some repairs and he just took some Bondo and other remedies to repair and painted its name "ouchie" on the side of the ski. Ski mates and myself have kidded him over the years about skiing on the oldest ski at a tournament. He finally showed up at a tournament yesterday and skied on his new D3 ski into 38' off. Incidentally, he has a son who skis in tournaments around the world by the name of Nate Smith.

 

[DaveD]

Wow, sure took Nate a long time to give up that family discount coupon. :)

[sunvalleylaw]

@OldGuysRule , curious as to the model. Do you know?

[Horton]

@oldjeep Radar builds a robust product but if I had to guess I would say that @eddie_roberts_jr would strongly discourage you from leaving your ski exposed to the Sun for hours

[eddie_roberts_jr]

You really shouldn't leave anything you are fond of out in the direct sun! Oh, and you really shouldn't stare at a full eclipse of the sun either.

[oldjeep]

Well, I guess I'm lucky so far. Recreational skiers and wakeboarders have racks full of equipment out in the sun. We typically have 2 slaloms and 2 wakeboards in the racks until the kids go back to college. Definitely sounds like I should never buy an expensive ski. Hiding all the equipment from the sun isn't possible if you spend the whole day on the lake.