New hardshell need some suggestion

[aupatking]

@AdamCord on dry land, 20 degrees feels a bit forced. Is that normal? When I look down, it looks like my knee is over my forefoot, so it appears to be right.

[AdamCord]

@aupatking if it feels forced you should probably back it off a bit. I tried a few different angles when I first did mine and I tried one that was close to the end of my range of motion, and it did not go well. You want it to be about as far forward as it can be but still be comfortable.

[cacman]

what and how did you make that, it looks great.

 

[JAS]

@cacman I used 1/8” thermoplastic material that is sold and used for orthopedic splints.

- I made a template to make a rough cut-out. - Placed in hot water to soften

- Formed on boot in forward flexed position

- Cooled using ice cube

- Trimmed and finished

- Attracted with (2) 3/16 large head rivets.

About 20 min project

 

 

[Adam Caldwell]

Agree @cacman. Those stoppers might as well not be there at all.

 

The plastic on the cuff still flexes and moves WAY too much. The only way to do it right is a similar fashion to @AdamCord to fix the position.

 

I have two short bars, one on each side of the achilles to support the rearward load. Works amazing, and fully adjustable/tune-able to preference.

 

[Ed_Johnson]

@adamhcaldwell ... Please send a photo of what you developed. I locked mine in place at 22 degrees by running a stainless bolt and stop nut to each side. Works great but non adjustable. Your system sounds better. THX

[Jordan]

Hmmmmm...now you guys have got me thinking.....perhaps a larger Mikrojust type of device for adjusting the angle of the upper cuff?

[Wish]

@AdamCord @adamhcaldwell is there a performance level a skier has to be at to try this or is this for everyone willing to give it a go?

[BraceMaker]

@Jordan if you made it go over the actual ankle joint of the shell where it had an upper and lower portion splined together then you could move them concentrically around and locked in various positions.

[aupatking]

I’m curious too, as @Wish asked, should just anyone try this? It seems that anyone skiing the course would benefit from a better position. I don’t see any reason a free skier would try it, but I also don’t know why a free skier would be in a Reflex style setup anyway. It also doesn’t “appear” to affect the safety, adversely.

@adamhcaldwell you say the blocks still add too much flex. What about a semirigid, plastic bar, like this?

I also was thinking about the original problem in the thread. Did you move the boots independently of one another? You said you couldn’t turn offside, and your rear was as close to the front as possible. I’ve found on several skis, with certain hard shell setups, exaggerating the gap between front and back allowed for an easy offside turn. At least worth a try.

 

[gavski]

@AdamCord - is there another way to measure this angle before fixing the upper cuff into place? Can you use the front of your lower shin??

[AdamCord]

@gavski your shin moves too much within the cuff to get an accurate measurement. The back of the cuff is really the only good place to get a measurement because the rest of the cuff is all curves.

[Adam Caldwell]

@aupatking That will likely break. Although the plastics is better then aluminum.

 

IMO, The ideal setup is to put a plastic bar on each side of the achilies so there is dual support.

 

Cord also has the forward part of the cuff pinned to the lower shell which takes some of the load. The black plastic is a little stiffer then the white cuff or the supershell so it seems to work okay with the single bar on the back.

 

I will try to get a picture of my setup. I use two section of .125 G10 material.

[Drago]

@gavski pick up a large protractor at Lowes or Home Depot, next to the levels and framing squares. Line it up with the back of the boot from the top of the heel on up. A million yrs ago I destroyed my ankle and thought going to hardshells was the Answer in my comeback. Absolutely hated them. Eventually "measured" my old rubber binding, copied that angle on the hardshels, and screw-riveted the upper cuff to the lower (like alpine race boots). Much better (though ultimately still hated them, but...)

 

[HighAltitude]

Does anybody know if a snow ski setup has been tried? Basically, just mounting two hardshells on a metal or hardened plastic plate. The plate simply gets inserted into a snow ski binding which is mounted on the ski. It seems so simple that I figure it must have been tried and discarded for some reason. I have tons of old ski (snow and water) so I thought I might try it this spring.

 

Also, has anybody just bought Velcro and mounted a plate to their ski like the Goode system instead of buying a whole new binding system? I would like to try the Velcro release but don't want to buy a whole setup to find out I really don't like it. I prefer a system that keeps both of the boots together as 90% of my falls result in a twisting moment and I tore up some ligaments in my front foot when only my back foot released and the ski started to helicopter. Right now I have a Radar plate with two old RS-1 bindings on it I thought I could mount via Velcro to an old ski. Again, it seems so simple I wonder why something like this hasn't been mentioned more.

 

Thanks in advance for any replies! -Marc

[Drago]

@HighAltitude that's basically what the Fögman setup was/is. Using an old,"real" ski binding....?imho a carbon waterski won't hold the screws, the stack height is big, and you're looking at some lbs.

[eleeski]

@HighAltitude I have. Velcro attached to a plate works fine if the plate is G10 but aluminum plates will bend. Finding the right mix is an art that realistically needs a few tries. My aluminum plates bent on the first go. I got tolerable service out of the G10 plates. Never really got the velcro dialed to my satisfaction as a release but had a good experience with the process. I also used the double boot and agree with both in being safer.

 

I have also tried snow ski boots. Too stiff, too heavy, too high off the ski, not waterproof - not close on so many levels. I never tried Scott boots but many were used in waterskiing. Some of the backcountry boots might work but there are enough good waterski options.

 

I converted rollerblade boots for waterskiing. Intuition liners made them work really well.

 

Snow ski bindings have different release parameters. So the stock bindings won't work. The MOB binding adapted some snow ski tech for an excellent binding. But they are a bit heavy.

 

@adamhcaldwell I used an old rubber heel piece to pin the cuff forward. Great support that didn't stress the shell. Make sure it gets some curve to make it stiff enough. I ended up with boots that I could pin through plastic overlap but I had to use oversized holes with rubber grommets to keep from tearing the plastic.

 

Fun playing with boot tech. You can do better than stock.

 

Eric

[ALPJr]

MOB

[aupatking]

@HighAltitude The Velcro plate will not release in a “crushing” type fall where the pressure is on the front boot before the rear. A pretty easy fall, in most systems can break ankles or legs in a system relying on all of the pressure to be on the rear for it to release.

That is my personal experience, and from a break I saw happen. It’s anecdotal, I know, but those two were consistent with that theory.

[HighAltitude]

Why doesn't the Velcro release rear to front? Or does it only release on side falls?

[mmosley899]

@HighAltitude your description is close to the MOB design. Both feet on one plate is not the safest release.

 

@eleeski the latest MOB system with Hardshell boot weighs essentially the same as a T-factor or Animal rubber boot.

[HighAltitude]

Why is both feet on one plate less safe?

[mmosley899]

@HighAltitude because in certain falls you can over stress one foot/ankle/achilles before the other allows the plate to release. This occurs particularly in an out the front fall where the front foot is still creating pressure against the ski, but the rear foot is trying to release from the heel. This can sprain or tear the Achilles' tendon.

[BraceMaker]

@HighAltitude if you stand in skier stance and lean forwards you'll find that eventually both of your heels need to rise. If you put both ankles on one plate the front heel is held down by the pressure on the rear foot.

[Fehlindra]

answer @HighAltitude YES but naa dint work out or at least gave up but it was fun testing