Will a -38 skier feel fin changes more than a -28?

[cragginshred]

In the context of fin setting the question came to mind -Will a -22 to -28 skier not get as much benefit from fin adjustments as a -35 to -38 skier?

While on the dock last week, we checked my new 2018 factory settings and they were all within a 'C hair' of the numbers given and I knew it was less than optimal conditions so I just ran em. Just curious if at the longer rope length it makes as much of a diff?

[mikegile]

I'd say yes on a couple levels. As the rope gets shorter there is less room for error so the adjustments have more of an effect. Also the shorter line skier is more in tune to what the adjustments do.

[Horton]

It's my opinion that as the rope gets shorter and skills become more refined then adjustment becomes much more critical. A 28 off skier needs their ski set up correctly but I would strongly discourage that skier from spending much time super fine tuning.

[bishop8950]

Ski set up matters for everyone at all levels. But most 38 skiers are more intune with their gear than 28 skiers. But I don’t think this means if you are a 28 skier you don’t have to be on top of your set up.

[cragginshred]

What about hang overs? Kidding............... :)

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

@Horton and @bishop8950 couldn't of said it any better I agree 100%....like you were saying though if your numbers are a tid bit off from perfect, don't stress.

[spicoli]

I've skied at that level all my life you know good 28s and if everything's good 32s just think its my limitation but always tying to get more anyway still have fun

I feel all my adjustments ,I can go from Struggling with space to wow what a difference much easier early and wide

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cragginshred]

For me I think moving the boots up or back is going to be a bigger deal as far as how much it affects the nuances of my pass, edge changes or where I am riding the ski.

 

That being said I did move my wing from my norm and the suggested 9* to 8* for colder water per Jay and others.

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

Boot position is probably more important for almost everyone.

[bishop8950]

@horton and I posted very similarly at the same time. Scary

[bkreis]

It's important to understand what to do or try to setup to help your skill set. the GOAT told me once, "I'm going to move your back foot one hole back to make it easier for you to stay stacked through the gate." He firmly believed in making a setup that works for the individual in order to work on better skills without being punished.

[ScottScott]

I think its possible that the speed moving through the water makes setup changes more noticeable. We all know that even at same boat speed, a shorter line skier moves faster through the water than long line. Faster speed makes more difference in setup than slower speed, so short line will notice more difference than long line.

[eleeski]

You are all wrong! Setup matters so much to the developing skier. The top skiers can ski anything.

 

Before my hip, I could run passes on anything. OK, I wasn't getting into 38 too often and only on my best practice days - but I did ski some weird stuff. I would make huge changes to setups. The effects were surprisingly little on my buoy count.

 

After the hip problems, everything has to be right to get me to make a pass. Ski and binding variables are much harder to deal with now - despite slower speeds and longer rope lengths. (I am working at it and hopefully get back to where it's the skier, not the ski.)

 

I judged MM at Imperial a couple weeks ago. Every one of those guys started out beautifully smooth (where they could clearly notice minor changes). But by the last couple passes, the skiing was really ragged and on the edge. There was no finesse or ski feel - it was pure athleticism and determination. No stinkin' fin setting was going to keep them from the pass.

 

Eric

[jimbrake]

I couldn't get past "C hair". What are we talking about?

[Cam]

I set my fins up stock for years and was stuck at running 28 off a handful of times a year until I did a demo day with Andy who set my fin up for me and I then ran more 28's in the next 2 weeks than I had in my life and 32 went down the following year.

So yes I would say at 22 through 32 we still need good fin settings, that is why I pester @AdamCord all the time for my Denali settings as I have had the experience of the difference it can make, just wish I could understand how it works.

[Luzz]

I don't know how to answer the question when it come to benefit. What I can say is that, often, people at longer lines feel minor fin settings more than skiers at short lines. I think @jayski makes a good point in his book that, the more edge on the ski, the more the wing becomes crucial and the fin less so. This is how I have been explaining to myself how some skiers feel .002" and it takes me .020" to feel anything :D

Regardless of level, my advise remains to do major changes (at the .020" at a minimum), see if your theory was right, and then play the midway game.

This sport is too full of variables for any of us to think that the .001" made a difference all other things considered

[TallSkinnyGuy]

I'm a very low-level skier -- still don't run all my passes at -15/34mph. I bought a new 2017 Radar Senate Graphite a few weeks ago and didn't do anything to the fin for the first six or seven sets. I then decided to measure it and found that it was substantially different than recommended "stock" settings. For example, I had to move the fin forward about a quarter inch to get the recommended DFT. Granted, I didn't make these changes between sets on the same day, but I couldn't feel any difference in the performance of the ski the next time I used it a few days later (note: I also did not put the wing back on). Well, I probably did feel a difference, but I never know if changes in performance are from my own inconsistent technique or from something else.

 

Regardless, I figure I should set my fin to stock settings so that I am at least not developing technique needed to counteract wacky fin settings.

[pregom]

@TallSkinnyGuy I too am still a very low-low-low level skier. I set the fin of my Senate to stock and took the wing out, based on the recommendation of other skiers in my club. Have you noticed a difference? Now I put the wing back and tomorrow I'm going to see what I feel. The only other adjustment I have played with is boot position, where I moved my front boot and RTP one notch forward. That did make a difference, I think. I feel I need to develop my technique by a lot before I can play with deep/short vs shallow/long settings. In my humble opinion I think both @Horton and @eleeski are correct - Freddie Winter, Nate Smith and all the other elite skiers are like Formula 1 drivers and they push themselves and their equipment to the limits of physics at very short rope lengths. Skiers in the -22/28 range are still at their own limits, so settings are important for both. If Nate or Freddie run a pass at -22 it's like a walk in the park for them.

[A_B]

The difference to me is that the 38 skier is going to be very consistent and won't make a lot of the typical form breaks that a 28 skier does, so should by elimination, feel and sense more going on with the ski that is good or bad, and not caused by them.

[SkiJay]

The answer to the question posed by @cragginshred is yes, a -38 skier will "FEEL" fin changes more than a -28 skier—IF all else is constant. If the -28 skier is doing a lot more skiing than the -38 skier, I'd bet on the -28 skier feeling smaller changes.

 

Now if the question was do fin changes matter more to a -38 skier than to a -28 skier, I'd say no. I've had 10 year old kids skiing at 28 mph instantly pick up a full pass or two in one day when I've fixes their often horrid setups.

[lpskier]

@jimbrake Would “RCH” make it clearer?

[dvskier]

@lpskier RCH is a US Navy term that I learned on my first ship.

[pregom]

@lpskier when all else fails, there is always google... :wink:

[lpskier]

This digression reminds me: What do Brooklyn and control-top pantyhose have in common?

[Horton]

@skijay crap setups hurt a huge % of the skiing population but do you agree the .003 tweaks mean a lot more to a 38 off skier then a 28 off skier?

[auskier]

I am a into 35 off skier, and can relate to some of the points raised here. Having tried 6+ high end skis in recent years the ski dictated a lot about how much I felt with it when it came to changes. The ski I rode this weekend, I made a .020 DFT change and felt a small difference and same score. On my regular ski, a .010 DFT change the wrong way would have me drop a pass or more.

[SkiJay]

@Horton Yes, smaller fin changes make a bigger difference to -38 skiers than to -28 skiers.

[lpskier]

@Gloersen You are correct, sir. Vlacke Bos= Flatbush, for those of us that think in the English language. Give the man a donut.

[Buoyhead69]

Just posted this on another thread but probably more pertinent here-

 

But I’m blown away by this wing adjustment. Especially in light of the recent thread asking if -38 skiers notice fin changes more than -28 skiers. To reiterate, I’m a rookie, 3rd summer in the course, very happy to be skiing 34.2mph and getting my -28 this fall. Still, I thought fin settings were for “guys like you” not me. I skied again today with my new 9 degree wing instead of 8. Both air & water in 40s, and a steady crosswind we don’t see on our lake very often. I ran -22 back to back, multiple passes, felt in control & much easier to remain in a stacked position across both wakes. Never close to an OTF. Plus the ski seems to snap around the buoys quicker. Almost cut it to -28 but in these conditions decided to groove my -22. So I agree obviously that a stacked position is absolutely vital. Just blown away by how much easier I stay stacked by that that one little adjustment. @AdamCord said I’m in the beginning, “put it on 10 and find out” I went to 9 instead but I found out.

[chris55]

Beiing a 32 - 34mph skier, depend on the water conditions (open water on Lake Geneva) I was not feeling stable enough on my back of the ski and my front of the ski was always high up. I changed my fin setting, after reading Skijay 's book and I could feel the difference immediatly (I went back with DFT and add some lenght. To me, long line skiers should be aware of there fin setting and boot placement too. I can really help when building technical consistancy.

[eleeski]

@chris55 Lake Geneva? With a breakwater you could have a fantastic site! Especially for the spectators. But without any protection, how do you deal with all the tour boats and water taxis?

 

If you are running 32 - 34 mph on that open course, you have some awesome skills.

 

Beautiful site!

 

Eric

[chris55]

@eleeski thank's and yes ....sometimes it is rough and the worse is the rollling waves from other boats and the water's temperature change a lot from summer to now (we had 23°c and now we have 12°c) so I adjust my fin for that and bring my front boot a notch too, thank's to mikro adjust and I can feel the difference even at 32mph 15off or 32 and 22off. We don't really ski at 34mph it could be dangerous if we fall.