Promo Boat Tournament Credit........Opinion Please

[EricKelley]

Should a towboat manufacturer receive credit for pulling a tournament if the boat used was a privately owned boat? This has been discussed in the Southern Region Council recently. Background, a certain manufacturer was given credit for pulling our Kentucky State Tournament when a 2010 privately owned boat was used. The brand is not important to the discussion. I think that we should have data on the amount of promos that are pulling tournaments so that we can reward the manufacturers for supporting us. With diminishing numbers of promos in certain areas this is important. Opinions.

[dave2ball]

Very interesting question. If the boat is a current hull ie 2014 MC that is a chief judge decision . I don’t think it would be right. The MFG is not supporting the event. The boat owner is.

If credits are given to the MFG that will Give the MFG another reason to not to support the tournaments.

[MuskokaKy]

I understand the question and debate but if someone is giving the manufacturer credit; I guess the question is who is giving them that and why....

If the manufacturer is taking credit that’s a whole different story.

I guess is comes down to what is it you don’t like about it; and if it’s just the principle of the matter...well I think you just have to get over it. We are in a diminishing sport. Let’s take any opportunity to bring it back into any spotlight we can. Don’t see that it can hurt your tourney in any way..

 

Theres another thread about the sport dying and all that....I guess we as a sport and community want the boat manufacturers to take credit and to sell as many DD’s as they can and not be taken over by v-drives.

 

I’d hope if the manufacturer did take credit they’d supply you with a promo the following year..

[Horton]

No. Manufacturers get "credit" to prove that they are supporting events. If I personally own a 2018 or a 1998 boat and I take it to a tournament I am supporting the event. The manufacturer is not.

[BobH]

Horton is spot on.

 

The Scorer has no choice whether to put the info on any boat used in a tournament into WSTIMS. That's a mandate. It's also a requirement to put in all the other info, like insurance, events pulled, etc. Otherwise, the Scorer hasn't followed the rules and supposedly that puts the sport at risk with the insurance company. Once that info goes into the scoring program - the manufacturer gets credit. I know this for a fact.

 

Everyone keeps talking the dying sport syndrome, I don't buy that. We have become smaller because of the huge cost. Not everyone can afford to buy $80K boats, property on private ski sites, and $2K slalom skis. Don't equate water skiing to golf and other sports with a few million members. Try Polo. That's also a very expensive sport and has about 5000 members, less than us, but they're doing very well. Let's just be happy with the size we are. If any of the current manufacturers don't want to support us, then let them sell their preferred "wake sport" boats at the higher margin, and forget about who got them to where they are. There will be a manufacturer that will make boats for us. I'll support them.

[skierjp]

Yes, the manufacture receives credit. It happens in Florida all the time. The scorer enters into the computer which tow boats are at the tournament which then goes to AWSA. Think about tournaments like Travers, Swiss, Pickos, Bennett’s, and even collegiate tournament that use the school boat. These boats are not considered “Promo Boats”

[disland]

What does credit get the boat manufacturer? My understanding is its only purpose is to "allow" them the "privledge" of pulling Regionals and Nationals. Once they "qualify" additional credit provides them no incremental value as the pulls at Nationals are not provided proportionately. This is Correct Crafts beef and may be why they are dialing back their promo program.

[dave2ball]

@skierjp is 100% correct. I believe the question was more about should the MFG get credit if a personal boat pulled the tournament with no ties to ski schools or colleges.

[Horton]

@dave2ball I'm unaware if there is a actual technical definition of what is or is not a promo boat. For this discussion I would say that any boat who's owner has a business relationship with a factory is a promo boat. Examples would be ski schools, universities, pro athletes and Knuckleheads like me. The Bumblebee is not a promo boat in the normal sense but it goes to tournaments and clearly Mastercraft should get credit for it.

 

On the other hand, if I take @Rico's 196 over to SkiWest for Junior development Nautique should not get credit for it.

[dbutcher]

I believe @disland is correct. The number of tournament events required to qualify for Regionals (and ultimately Nationals) is low enough that the personal vs promo boats issue probably doesn't really matter. Hopefully, manufacturers see the additional other values in supplying promo boats.

[Horton]

@dbutcher I'm not exactly sure how many tournaments Centurion is going to pull this year but they are certainly on the bubble. They paid the fee to be a approved boat in 2018 even though they are currently in transition to potentially bring out the boat as a Supreme in 2019.

[RAWSki]

What is the value in not giving a boat manufacturer credit? I understand some feeling a private boat is different from a promo but there is no reason to not record which boat pulled an event. Is the thinking to punish the manufacturers into more involvement? All four have made significant investments in really great AW$A approved 3 event boats not to mention title sponsoring several really great events each year .

 

I have to wonder what came first the ski tournament or the promo boat?

 

By the way @Horton your lovely yellow tub is definitely a promotional boat.

 

[EricKelley]

The value lies in the manufacturers reward for supplying a tournament boat. Is it fair for 1 manufacturer who spent the money to get the same reward as a manufacturer who did not.

If I was the promo director for the supplying manufacturer, that would not sit well with me. I don't think of this as penalizing a manufacturer. It is rewarding the companies who are supporting the tournaments.

It is important that scorers keep record of the actual boat used in events. Could add a Manufacturer Supplied checkbox that would be used for "credits."

It is also our only way to collect data on what is happening with tournament towboats throughout the country. What is happening in the South is not what is happening in the East and West.

If we are afraid to keep up with this we are a bunch of soccer moms who think everyone needs a trophy.

The manufacturers spend a lot of money and time to bring these boats to tournaments for us. I am thankful for this and they need acknowledgement for their efforts and investments.

[MuskokaKy]

@Horton @BobH , I get it, if your bring YOUR boat its YOU that is supporting it, and thats great....Buts no one is going to say " Nate set a new record behind @Horton" no one cares who's driving ( except a few extreme diehards here) or who owns the boat. Last driver talk i heard was with chad scott and nate for that record that didn't quite make it...For us out here who actually drop 100k ( in Canada) on a boat all i want to know which brand is setting records.. couldn't care less if your tourney boat was owned by promo or personally...

[dave2ball]

@Horton I agree with you. I believe the word promo boat is referring to what we consider a normal promo. No ties to a ski school. In this thread. Example I buy a boat from a dealer and I am asked to use it in a tournament I think the boat should not get credit. If you have business relationship with the factory then yes the boat should get credit.

[waterbeat]

If the tournament scorebook, in addition to recording which brands of boats were used, also recorded whether or not the boat was a promo boat, it would be possible to generate some interesting reports on how well the manufacturers are actually supporting events with promo boats.

[eleeski]

I believe that the year of the boat needs to be entered into the scorebook. Since all promos should be the current year, any older boat could be considered an owner boat.

 

Some owners have enough brand loyalty that it is a factor in bringing their boat. Getting their brand into Regionals or Nationals so they can ski behind it is important. Maybe it's good that the manufacturers aren't the only ones that can influence boat selection - especially given the recent disarray of the promo programs. The "old boat" rule is in effect because of lack of manufacturer support.

 

I'll give you slalomers a 196 if you give the trickers a 2011MC at Nationals. Shall we flood the tournaments to qualify the sweet old boats?

 

Eric

[Horton]

@eleeski there was a 2017 boat in Newberry last year that was used for tournaments that was absolutely not a promo boat. That manufacturer should not get credit.

[eleeski]

@Horton The SDSU boat is a couple years old and is supported by Nautique. Not a perfect system but it is in place.

 

Also, I question why you think the manufacturer doesn't deserve credit? If the boat only pulled the owner's division, you are absolutely right. I have seen this and it sucks. But if the boat got used, lots of skiers were exposed to it and there were no issues, that's the reason for the whole credit thing. We need the skiers to experience the different pulls so they are ready for the big tournaments.

 

Eric

[LeonL]

My meager input is this. What is the real value to the mfg? Except for CP I can see no problem with the other three getting the credit they need for Regionals or Nationals. If at Nationals, with a relatively large number of observers, the boat brands pulled numbers proportional to the number of tournaments credits, there may be a different view of "value". But, I can see no reason for a mfg to get credit for pulling a tournament unless they put some "skin" in the game. Private owner who paid MSRP (probably no one does this) no factory discount, why should they get any credit? You can't get them to send a boat, so some owner is kind enough to provide one, and they receive credit? Huh?

[aupatking]

What credit does the private boat owner get for supplying his boat?

 

[eleeski]

My boat pulled a lot of tournaments. Especially college tournaments.

 

I got lots out of it. One I got to ski behind my boat - which I love and is an advantage.

 

Two, the tournaments I liked were supported.

 

Three, especially in the college tournaments, I was helping build the base for the future of the sport.

 

Eric

[Horton]

Hopefully someone will explain in full but the short version is:

 

This "Credit" thing we are talking about is measuring the number of tournaments each manufacture sends boats to. It is about manufacture involvement. It is not a measure of ANYTHING else.

 

Anyone who provides a private non-promo boat should be thanked, given beer, given free entry and perhaps a few dollars but that has nothing to do with the "Credit" being discussed here.

[dave2ball]

For a tow boat to be able to pull nationals and regionals the boat MFG has to be at 20%of the tournaments in 1 out of the five regions. Must pull 20% in all regions to be able to be a national tow boat. If a MFG fails to do this the boat will not be allowed to pull a regional or national events.

The reason this is an interesting question is that people who bring there personal boat (non ski school or factory supplied boat) is supporting the tournament. The MFG is not supporting the event with a factory supplied boat which means they don’t or have not invested money into the event there fore they should not receive and credit towards a national or regional event.

Any hull over 3 years is not elagble for national or regional credits I believe. But they can be used in a tournament as a tow boat with a USA waterski exception.

[Horton]

Thanks @dave2ball

[RichardDoane]

@horton - don't forget that an owner who brings a boat for an event, should also get a pull-out couch to sleep on instead of a free hotel room

[Chad_Scott]

In my opinion there is a lot more out there of concern regarding the slow death of this sport other than worrying about whether a manufacturer gets credit for pulling a tournament with a promo versus personal boat. I know most of you guys think the three event market carries some huge value to Correct Craft, Mastercraft and Malibu which it does not. These boats represent around 5% of their production and the least amount of profit. Which is why a lot of dealers don’t even stock a 3 event boat

 

In the three event world wholesale is considered retail versus the wakeboard wakesurf industry. Those people want the biggest baddest boat with all the options and more. While we want as little on the boat as possible for as little money as possible.

 

I don’t think it is a good idea to put any additional pressure on these companies who still provide promo programs in any form. Honestly they don’t get a bunch of return for what they spend. Selling a boat at dealer cost to a promo person and then giving credit for events. In reality not a bunch of return for them On top of a significant donation to USA waterski for the tow boat to be approved. And let’s face it. If they decide not to build tournament boats. Do you think any of the big three will go out of business.

 

All of us that do still love waterskiing should be thankful that the big three continue to maintain a promo program and spend the money it cost them to support USA Waterski or whatever we are called now. It’s certainly not a good thing when a company like centurion or supreme elect to no longer produce a three event boat. Hopefully not a sign of things to come.

 

What we certainly can’t afford is these manufacturers deciding to pull out of this part of the industry.

[6balls]

@Chad_Scott just nailed it. I would tag additional awesome to that post if I could.

[EricKelley]

Fact is that demand in market will dictate production of 3 event boats. Goodwill and charity to tournament waterskiing will have little to do with decision making with these businesses. They are in it to make a profit and that's it. That's what they are supposed to do and that's great. Being afraid to simply account for the use of private boats is a small thing. Why would they be against it?

I have done my part in supporting Nautique. I have spent more on boats with them than I have in my house. I suspect those of you who actually plunk down your hard earned money have done the same over the years. I am happy to donate and use my private boat in tournaments. That's why I own it and I am happy to share it. Why should the manufacturer get credit for my charity?

[Chad_Scott]

@"Eric Kelley" At the end of the day does it really matter one way or the other if the manufacturers get credit or not? Don’t we need all three manufacturers to pull Nationals as it is. Last year with 4 manufacturers I believe we had required 4 boats from each manufacturer at nationals.

 

I am of the opinion that we (AWSA) need to keep the big 3 involved in supporting us. I know that it is a yearly discussion with the manufacturers. Proof from the route Correct Craft has taken this year. I am just of the opinion that we have much bigger problems to address other than whether a manufacturer gets credit. We are now also tasking USA Waterski to create another program to document the difference between a promo and personal boat.

 

They don’t even have a programmer to address this level 10 mandate.

 

New requirements/ additional rules is not a productive way to keep this sport going. Time to simplify things. Time to worry about spending all this type of energy to introduce people to waterskiing. Add numbers to our group and we will certainly add demand for boats, skis, vest, ropes and handles.

 

Are we really looking to tell Malibu, Mastercraft or Correct Craft that one of these companies they did not qualify to pull nationals either way.

[BobH]

Chad, I don't think anyone is wanting to drive away any of the manufacturers. I certainly don't. Malibu is not the company that's openly headed in the direction of less support, so maybe Malibu can step in and latch onto that share. Fine with me. That's the way the market works with everything else.

 

The original post was to just find out how many tournaments the manufacturers are supporting and how many tournaments are being supported by individuals. The number of credits required to pull regionals and nationals are not very high anyway. It's not likely that the credit issue would cause any of the 3 to not qualify, unless their support dwindles to the point that they aren't really supporting the sport.

 

Let's take the credit term out of the discussion, since it currently has no real impact anyway. Just knowing the answer to how tournaments are being supported doesn't harm the boat companies, does it? It wouldn't take a new program to do that. Dave Allen, who is the programmer for WSTIMS (not for the rankings list - that's a whole different subject) would just need to create one more box in the scoring program that notes if a boat used was (F) Factory or (I) Individual. It already keeps up with the make, model, engine, and propeller for every boat used. I can check with Dave, but keeping the WSTIMS program up to date with the never ending and more complex rules changes has been much more challenging than this.

 

If we change the question just to ask where is the boat support coming from for tournaments. Is there harm in knowing that? That's not the same question as who is financially supporting USAWSWS. That's definitely a whole different topic.

 

Boat tests anyone?

 

Bob

[eleeski]

Is who qualifies boats for Nationals a competition for manufacturers or a way for skiers to get exposure to the new boats?

 

As a tricker, I certainly don't want to show up at Nationals and get a boat for the first time (no way to set rope lengths, speed, loading and get that critical feel for the wake). Slalom and jump boats do matter as well to the skier - especially if there are speed control changes. We need to see these boats before the high stakes tournaments!

 

@dave2ball quoted the rule correctly ("Must pull 20% in all regions to be able to be a national tow boat") but then added interpretation. The rule says nothing about promos or factory support. The manufacturer's boat just has to be present at enough tournaments. Good for them if their owners are loyal and motivated enough to offer their personal boat.

 

Good for us being able to ski behind the boat.

 

I don't know if the new rule allowing old boats counts as manufacturer credit. I might agree with Dave that it shouldn't. We don't get the needed exposure to the new boats.

 

"What we certainly can’t afford is these manufacturers deciding to pull out of this part of the industry." @Chad_Scott !

 

Eric

[Chad_Scott]

@BobH Certainly no harm in that. But the tone of this conversation is not what is decribed by you. There is certainly merit to your thoughts. I only say that we as an organization do not need to do anything that shows a lack of appreciation for the programs in any form. With all of the other more important issues facing this organization, I just think this is wasted energy, which serves no purpose. Like worrying about a cut on your foot when you have cancer.

 

I am fortunate to be involved in some of the conversations at the corporate level. Most of these companies have now gone public. Bean counters want to know what are we getting for the money we are spending. Plain and simple.

 

As I know there are manufacturers reps that pay attention to these forums. I just urge that we tread lightly on a path that negatively effects those still willing to support. I think the more boat companies involved in the promo program the better for all of us and better for the industry.

[aupatking]

@Chad_Scott that’s a big part of what I’m saying in another thread. Without competition skiing, these manufacturers WILL stop producing DD competition boats. I’m surprised one of them hasn’t pulled out already. 5% of sales and what percent of cost do they account for?

The fact that it hasn’t happened yet surprises me. Nautique committing to an 80% tournament presence is insanely generous. Even with promo cutbacks.

That said, if a private owner is supplying the boat, the manufacturer is not.

But, there as well, the boat has a percentage of tournament presence, and I wouldn’t have bought mine if it wasn’t approved.

I guess I’m either side on this, but Chads comment got me fired up. :)

[EricKelley]

@Chad_Scott I think we look at it from the opposite way....... Keeping track of the manufacturers who are willing to support seems to reward them not reduce appreciation. How does this negatively effect a company when they bring a boat to a tournament?

[Chad_Scott]

@"Eric Kelley" What is the reward for them at the end of the day from a business standpoint. I don’t agree or disagree with any of you. What’s the point of doing this? How will this advance membership or add people to the dwindling numbers. What is the end goal in keeping up with it one way or the other.

[Horton]

This thread is sort if all over the place. The original subject is a technical organizational/bureaucratic detail that is sort of interesting is irrelevant to the broader sport. In other words - what @Chad_Scott said

[Jody_Seal]

I don't think that Eric is out of line for asking an opinion of members of this Forum.

Chad has a valid point, yet many skiers are dissatisfied with the current direction and trends that are propagated within the hierarchy of this sport.

In the past Promo owners brought their boats to tournaments and were awarded as per their company's agreements and Policy's. Also in the past Manufacturers were lined up and aggressively (marketing wise) providing boats to support our sport. However this is not the case in today's tournament waterski environment. In Many cases tournaments can not get newer boats as prescribed by rules that our own leadership Hierarchy has prescribed. Luckily our leadership has started to realize that the past rules and policy's towards towboats has to be amended to not turn away events.

Is it necessary to document non promo boats utilized in tournaments? I think yes it is! Should non Manufacture sponsored (non promos) boats attain manufacture participation credit towards championship events? I think that should be up to membership and those participating actively in the sport. Eric Has a valid point as he "Purchased" his boat with no support from manufacturers (as has many others) and provided them to events out of pocket. To Blindly accept that we as an organization be glad that manufactures are supporting and providing craft for our tournaments in some manor is not good business.

Reminder our organization has contractual agreements with these manufacturers that may need be better scrutinized if the current rules towards towboats are maintained.

 

 

[RAWSki]

Until there is an option and good reason to credit private boats differently then promo boats (many of which are still privately owned). The argument just seems a bit Petty. As has been pointed out we need to be thankful to those manufacturers that still carve out production time to make DD 3 event boats. And even more thankful to the people that donate their time to make it all happen. @Chad_Scott said it best in his two posts in this thread.

 

IMO the only way to increase promo programs is to increase the numbers of skiers and thus- potential customers unfortunately we seem to be trending in the wrong direction. And withholding a few dozen boat credits seems counter productive .

[jcamp]

@RAWSki I don't see it as withholding credit, I see it as not rewarding credit when it isn't deserved. If I was a manufacturer that really supported three-event skiing, I'd be pretty peeved to see a rival manufacturer get credit when they really had nothing to do with making sure a boat was there. Why work (and spend $$) to make sure boats make it to tournaments if I'm treated the same way as guys who don't?

[RAWSki]

I know we are very fortunate in my area that all the dealers and promo manufacturers support tournaments and they even do some clinics and special events on their own .(I also own a CP that has been a promo boat and may still pull some tournaments under the new rules this season) So perhaps I have a different perspective . Should we track promo and private use....probably . Do we?

 

If a maker has paid fees and produced an AWSA approved 3 event tow boat are they not supporting the sport? A decade ago there were probably 8-10 boats on the list. Now there are half that. We certainly don't want that trend to continue. Let's try to get more skiers and more support for the events and devise ways to make them more fun and attractive to everyone involved.

[dave2ball]

@RAWSki yes the MFG is supporting the sport. But they are not giving money to AWSA/USA waterski just out of the goodness of their heart. They pay the fee for the right to tow USA waterski events be able to be included in the nationals and regionals. If a personal boat is used and the MFG gets credit it will show that the MFG does not need to supply a promo boat when someone is willing to use there own personal boat and they get credit for doing almost nothing Gettimg them one tournament closer to that 20% of tournaments necessary pulled to be a national tow boat. This situation may make promo boats even harder to come by. Maybe USA waterski should change the rules for regional and nationals?

[Jody_Seal]

The Stark Reality of the Inboard Market and the Manufacture is that our boating culture has changed. With the three event sport vanishing from the public water the trend in boats went to a boat that could handle 6 or more friends comfortably, Put it in the water and go out on the public water comfortably for the day. With enough room and wake for all and any toad devices except waterskiing.

Now! the Price tag for a minimum level craft that does this approaches $100K. I found a exotic overseas built boat for surfing that was well over a quarter of a million dollars.

The big and little manufacturers cant build these boats fast enough. Good Business sense dictates build the product with the biggest profit margin. Dealers do not want to stock or floor ski boats for the same reason! Profit margin.

We as waterskiers and as boats are concerned are very finicky or just plain cheap minded as many of us can remember when a new ski boat cost $15K or less. We also for the most part avoid the dealer when it comes to a used or new ski boat purchase hence the lack of dealer desire to invest into our sport.

Promo programs from across the board have been cut back with the Biggest cut back in the upcoming season. ask yours selves why this is happening. I know that the boat that statistically pulled more rounds of three event in 2016 then the other three combined was shot down by the towboat committee when they asked for two (2) more events to pull at regional s and nationals. Equal pulls is the status quo and we watched a boat company last year in reality pull the lions share (number wise or time on the water) of the Nationals, This boat company are not building new tournament boats for 2018 and probably are not going to any time in the near future.

 

So where does this fit into the opinion question asked. Again many of you are blindly saying just be glad manufacturer is supporting in some fashion or where they can.. Reminder they pay our organization to do so. It is not a black and white issue. We as an organization would be fools not to track the information pertaining to where when and who as far as manufacturer supplied and private owner product is concerned. I know the manufacturers are pushing away from our sport because of the profit margin. Past sweat equity means nothing to our organization and we have become a burdensome sport entity to the boat builders to participate.

Many of you skiers are going to show up at events this year and find yourselves skiing behind as old as 10 year old boats! Are you going to be ok with that? How will this impact the skier that qualifies with a 10 year old boat vs the skier that qualified with the new boat? Does it make a difference?

Our sports leaders make enough blind or knee jerk rule's and policy's! I don't think it is petty to document and know where, what and who is pulling our tournaments and give our membership needed info so as they are not making knee jerk and blind rules and policy's.

 

 

[ALPJr]

If I enter a tournament and the boat is 10 years old, it'll be 10 years newer than the newest boat we train with.

[eleeski]

When every weekend a petition for an old boat that was needed to make a tournament happen comes in, something has to change. AWSA had to do something.

 

There seems to be some bitterness about what is happening with the promo program. Promo programs are a nice benefit to skiers (especially those in the program) but not a driving force for tournament skiing. The issue needs to be with making sure skiers get exposed to the new boats.

 

AWSA is an organization for the skiers, not the boat companies.

 

Absolutely keep track of the age of the boats. Just make sure we do have boats at Nationals.

 

Eric

[dave2ball]

@eleeski I have not seen any bitterness maybe frustration. To have promo boats at events one year and then nothing the next year or more. The promo person quites and nobody wanted to take their place or the team was redesigned and he was part of the plan. So there are no boats available now Compared to last year and nobody was given a heads up.

To some tournament sites a promo boat is expected. Which may not be available now.

To the people who are bitter about the promo boats or lack of promo boats in your area istep up and join a team if you are able to. See for your self what a thankless job it really is.

 

[disland]

Did @Jody_Seal just say that Nautique isnt building any ski boats in 2018?

[skierjp]

I believe he is referring to the Carbon Pro and Ski Supreme. Neither one will have a tournament boat for 2018.

[6balls]

@dave2ball thankless at times and a big $$ commitment with need to unload the boat each year...tough stuff. Really appreciate those who do it as it really has to simply be for the love of the sport.

[LoopSki]

So the supreme carbon pro has been scraped?