The Optimal Slalom Boot

[ghutch]

My question is... what is everyone doing for the toe bar once the boot is flattened? I don't really have that warm fuzzy of security of a prerelease without it being machined down somehow and refitted. Just putting tape on it to fill the gap concerns me. Any solutions?

[gavski]

I don’t think wrapping tape around the tie bar has any effect on the releasability of the binding. It doesn’t add any extra resistance and doesn’t interfere with the release mechanism in any way..

 

I have seen radiator hose being used to good effect.

 

I warpped self amalgamating tape around the toebar that I have then covered in electrical tape. This has the advantage of conforming to the exact shape of the boot toe..

[dchristman]

God I hate the winter season of foot contemplation! On one hand I agree with @Deanoski about overthinking it, but on the right foot I can't help myself :/

 

An observation related to shimming as suggested by @gavski - in tongued liners the tongue appears to prefer migrating to the wrong side. All of my liners have taken that set. It is interesting that my crusty old Approach did not. In fact it had taken the opposite set. It is also interesting that the wrap liner in the FM has a very neutral fit. I didn't expect that since the overlap is mostly on the right side.

 

[dchristman]

Although I have seen many wrap something around the toe-bar, I would just like to point out that Reflex says "don't do that" in their manual.

I'm not a mechanical engineer, but it seems to make sense that anything that increases friction between the boot and the toe-bar may be a potential source of delaying release.

 

Ultimately the bed of nails has to be the best system. It would be just a little uncomfortable.

 

[ghutch]

So.... anyone modifying the toe bar or have any other suggestions? I'd be willing to pay for the peace mind knowing it was right

[skialex]

@ghutch it's good to have the older stainless toe bar with the spacers to start with. Take out the spacers and if it’s not enough, you can grind down the bases a little more.

If you have the newer toe bar, you either take it to a machinist or with a lot of patience you can do it yourself using a dremel or a sand belt grinder and an m6 die. If you go that way, mask using thick tape around your grinding area.

Also you can add a Clear plastic pieces of hose over the toe bar, size 6mm or 8mm In diameter. The kind the builders use as a level when they build brick walls.

If you do this, you need to soften it with heat and drive it over the toe bar with the help of some silicone grease, as the bar itself is about 10mm in diameter.

Personally don’t like warping tape, it only works for few sets and then you have to add more and it doesn’t look good in the eye.

[DavidN]

@ghutch

I have one of the Reflex stainless bars with the spacers.

Removing the spacers will lower the bar by 4mm (5/32).

Should be enough for a flattened out boot.

PM me if you are interested - I’m willing to do a swap for your “regular” bar.

 

 

 

[Deanoski]

@dchristman How does that FM boot ski

 

 

[VONMAN]

Steam powered boots and hokey religions are no match for good old rubber boots. Just ask the man that's run more 41offs in competition.

[dchristman]

@deanoski I didn't spend a lot of time with it on my slalom, but it wasn't bad. I plan on trying it out again on my slalom in the spring. My review of the whole system here: https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/10096/hard-shell-binding-with-rubber-release-but-not-like-radars/p1

 

I pulled the FM out again at the end of this past season to work on flips and ski lines. The resurfacing of this thread prompted me to get it out and make a few more modifications to it. You can see in the pictures in the other thread the natural position of the cuff is vertical. I was cutting down the cuff tongues to allow further forward flex and planning to pin it - until I sliced into my thumb and took a short trip to the urgent care. Binding modifications can be dangerous even before you hit the water! Although that wrap liner fits very neutral side-to-side, it is kind of stiff and impedes forward flex. Another reason I wanted to pin it.

The cuff material is softer than on the Reflex boots. I'm not going to do any more cutting on it for now.

 

Other observations - I did feel the angle of my foot was different from my Reflex boots and relocated the toe piece to the right about 3/8". Rather than build up under the base like HO/Edge and Reflex for "connected-ness" the FM adds on to the base of the boot, so if you're intent on flattening the boot it would certainly be more work. The heel and toe pieces are about 1/8" thick and have a gap between them, so if you were going to use this release system and were really anal you'd probably want to fill that gap in.

 

 

Another option since you are getting away from Reflex would be the cuff release version of the boot. I believe @luzz uses those so maybe he can comment. I believe a downside to either of these systems is they will change over time due to wear of softer "bits" and require more maintenance.

 

I really like the USD buckles on the FM that lock down. I swapped out the top two buckles on my Super Shell for them. Although the snow ski buckles offer "infinite adjust ability", I just don't see the need. Skate straps are much cheaper and work fine for me.

[Luzz]

@Deanoski I absolutely love the EVO Front Boot. I originally got to FM back when I was learning flips and breaking hard shell bindings of different brands (or homemade). After a few years, I switched from a Radar RS1 front boot to the FM EVO and I haven't looked back since. You are attached to the ski, release when you have to, and especially you don't release when you don't have to.

Among the many customizing options, I prefer the regular cuff (only one buckle) and recently I have gone away from the buckle on the shell. The idea is to have resembling certain aspects of a rubber boot, like a more progressive engagement of the inside edge.

 

I will post a picture of it whenever I get next to my ski :smile:

[dchristman]

@Luzz

Do you change anything to increase downward pressure on the top of the foot other than the pressure the liner and laces provide? Which liner do you use? Do you use any sort of footbed?

[Luzz]

@dchristman nothing to add pressure as you described nor footbed. I use the older version of

this liner

, but I have molded one of the new ones and feels good also

[Adam Caldwell]

Always a good watch.

 

 

[bko]

Once more I kindly ask for your recommendations.

Soon I will have completed my modifications.

In relation to my stock setup (HO Syndicate) I will have to mount the binding further back if it feels awkward - is that correct?

[ghutch]

Finally doing some skiing on the mods to the Reflex black shell. Flattened sole, trimmed upper and lower cuff (was extremely stiff before trimming), moved buckle lower over the big toe and modified Radar liner to use in it. Bottom cut out, grip tape on Reflex shell bottom, and cut alot of the foam away from tongue, sides and upper cuff area. Also put a bit of foam over the big toe to take up space there.

My results so far is my 35 feeling way better and running more of them this early in the year. 1st 35 of the season should have run it but got excited at 4 ball it felt so easy. 2nd one lost the handle at 4 ball but again should have been run. 3rd time- money. Didn't take any time to get used to it. Got on it and ripped into 35. Still using a Radar for the rear boot. Bottom line- its awesome. If you're on the fence about doing any mods...what have you got to lose?

[bko]

@ghutch: after cutting the liner did you find a way to save the edges from tearing or fraying?

[gavski]

I have cut the bottom of both an intuition & vapor liner and I didn’t have any issues with the edges...remember, once you cut the bottom off the liner, you will have to fit the liner into the shell first before you then insert your foot..weirdly, I have to treat this set up exactly the same as if it were a rubber boot..ie, wet, lube, step in, then rinse out the excess lube before stepping into the binding..

[gavski]

Off season binding repaint and service..

 

 

[C5Quest]

@gavski you have a pic of the bottom of your liner?

 

[gavski]

There is no bottom...it’s been cut out..

[gavski]

When cutting the bottom off the liner, you will need to trim a lot more think. I have quite wide feet, so around the widest part of my foot, there is not much liner material down the side.

 

By fitting the bottomless liner into the boot, and then feeling around with your fingers, you should be able to work out where the material needs to be trimmed away. Then use your foot to feel for any tight/ pinch points...when you get it all trimmed out, it feels amazing.

 

Note, I have a custom footbed that has the NABOSO insole glued onto it, so I had to retrim my liner to fit. That is when I swapped out the radar liner for the intuition. The Radar liner is a lot thicker and it was squeezing my foot to death..

[Adam Caldwell]

There ya go! Now your cookin with Gasoline!

[ghutch]

@bko I use a Radar liner and the edges have stayed pretty good. It is mostly just the foam now. I did put duck tape around the edges but haven't skied with it yet to see how it will hold up. I also had a tear coming down the side and used some Goop to help stop that. I'm in the process of doing another one for a back up. If I figure out how to post pics I will do so.

[ghutch]

Time to revive one of my all time favorite threads. Now with the new Radar boot out.. and I know its too early to tell...has the ski world achieved the optimal boot? Will definitely be interesting. @Horton will we see a review?

[gavski]

My take on the radar boot is that it is essentially a vapor boot with new materials - same release mechanism as before. But, I am standing by to be proved wrong..

 

I love the vapor boot - and I am only on my frankenboot because of an ankle injury..however, with a lot of guidance from Adam, my boot is going to be hard to beat..

[mmosley899]

@gavski the new Radar boot is much more, a lot of great new performance features and fit.

[gavski]

I am definitely intrigued…..

[ghutch]

@gavski how about a preview of that boot mod. Always interested in some Caldwell modification-ism!

[Wizz]

I´ve been skiing with old black Reflex hard shells for more than 10 years. After reading this extensive thread I realize that the forward flex has been very difficult/hard so I have made some of the modifications recommended, to the front boot. It is now easy to flex.

Originally there was no strap to limit the movement. I have seen some of you mounted a stiff/fixed metalplate. Why would that be better than a strap? You can choose the angle but will have limited flex. Would it be dangerous or any other disadvantage without any limitation?

I can release on land/dock with the same binding setting as before my modifications.

 

Two years ago, I learnt the hard way, that safety is important. Both bindings released in a chrash, but my front foot was seriusly injured! When I mounted the bindings I adjusted them to the enclosed instructions and then never touched it. After recovery I performed the dock release test, I had learnt here in the forum. I could not get the front binding to release. When trying to adjust it I realized the spring and screw was rusty! It brooke when I tried to loosen it! My ski has never been close to saltwater. I moved the back binding to the front and replaced it with a stock R-Style, which I like.

 

I wish the dock testing tip would have been included in the instructions from Reflex and that their material would be waterresistant!

I don´t think everyone using hard shells knows or care about doing the dock test. So please promote it.

I´m looking forward to test the modifications you have recommended, but the ice on our lake here in Stockholm, Sweden is still 6 inches!

[Wizz]

Sorry, I meant corrosiveproof not water resistant.