Engine cranks but will not start

[Stevie Boy]

Going to chime in with a couple of things, probably not going to do the trick but worth checking, fit a new earth lead, I have had a engine cut out when it gets warm because of a duff earth lead, second how about the sensor on the crank pulley they can give up at any time, just a couple of things worth looking at simple things first.

Hope you get it figured out soon, so you can get back on the water.

[2Valve]

@Stevie Boy

Good call, I should have remembered to check the engine ground. I'll dig around to find the cable, hopefully attached to the engine block somewhere. Although it does crank like its got a 24vdc battery.

 

[2Valve]

@DW

I'll hook up my fuel pressure gauge and see what it reads, at speed.

The voltmeter on the gauge cluster shows a constant 14vdc at speed, so I didn't think of hooking up the Fluke to the battery to check for fluctuations. I'll do that.

thanks much. Oh and to further the nerd requirements, I USED to have a sweet Tektronix oscilloscope. lol

[BraceMaker]

This is the frustrating parts about boats. Never does just one thing go wrong at once. Just this spring I had both a dead pickup coil and a bad kill switch. Sitting in the garage, VM on the kill switch proved it was shot. Ordered the new one, install it get it all wired back in and the switch on and no go! Also a pick up coil.

[2Valve]

@BraceMaker

My dad was big on teaching us kids all about motors. Pretty smart technician, the 'ol man was. But every once in awhile, he'd lose his temper and chuck some screwdriver, wrench or pliers at the door going into the house.

 

That's why he covered it in a sheet of aluminum.

 

I might have to do the same in my garage, as boats can produce the same outrage. lol

[DW]

Another reason to buy some Harbor Freight tools, cheap to replace when they become anger management victims / utensils:)

[2Valve]

While troubleshooting this problem, I picked up a code scanner that will also allow me to set base timing. So my question is on the timing marks. Regular old V8 engines have a scale on the timing chain cover, showing 0,2,4,6,8 degrees, etc.

 

On this motor, there's the standard index mark on the harmonic balancer, but only a single "notch" on the timing chain cover. Does that "notch" denote TDC or the Base timing mark, which I believe should be 10 deg. BTDC?

 

I could pull all the plugs and have a helper rotate the engine (probably not by hand...::), while I peer in the hole, looking at the piston, but thought I'd ask.

 

thanks,

2Valve

[BraceMaker]

That should be your static base timing mark helps to use some paint pen to light it up.

 

Once in timing mode and light on it make sure you're at 1000 RPM (I set that by looking at PP gauge) and hit your static 10 degree and you should be set.

[DW]

@2Valve: You might peer in to the bellhousing at the top if you have a hole / plug and see if there is a TDC mark on the flywheel, then you can compare to the harmonic balancer mark to confirm.

[2Valve]

I'm going to apply some timing tape to the harmonic balancer and mark it for future reference. Sort of miss the degree marks on older cast iron Detroit V8's. :(

thanks everyone,

2Valve

[DW]

Just make sure the balance is the same / right diameter:) Timing tape is really nice, I like the yellow one, got it at Summitt.

[BraceMaker]

You must really like setting your base timing!

[2Valve]

@BraceMaker

Just once hopefully. Just to verify its done right. :)

[2Valve]

@DW

Stopped at NAPA and they didn't have any so I'll order online.

thanks,

2valve

[Gar]

When odd problems occurred at our family shop it seems like it was a 50/50 split between something really basic and simple overlooked or a truly rare issue. Both situations sucked but was a relief when finally solved. Hope you get it fixed soon.

[2Valve]

@Gar

Appreciate the sentiments. I eventually figure out most things mechanical so I know I’ll get it. Just frustrating when it’s happening and you want to ski. I’m lucky though in being in a club with several close friends who’ll pull me anytime I want. Life could always be worse.

[DynaSkiPete]

Why don't people use dealers for repairs? A lot of money spent on something that does not work. WOW.

[LeonL]

@DynaSkiPete one reason is that at this time of year a lot of dealers say "I can get you in the fifth Friday of next month". And then they go,through the same scenario of troubleshooting as @2Valve is going through. Dealer mechanics aren't always going know the fix instantly.

Edit: Oh and money! See @BraceMaker comments below. There's a guy at our lake that had a dealer "throw parts at" his boat for two seasons off and on. Cost him a fortune. Like a lot of skiers he preferred to keep his fuel level less than half all the time. Guess what? Due to a pickup problem keeping the fuel above half solved his problem. found it himself. What seemed to be an intermittent problem was fuel level.

[BraceMaker]

@DynaSkiPete - dealers vary wildly and for me to get my boat to one requires that I go get my trailer recruit someone to drive the boat to the ramp. Then it's an hour trailer to drop it off. If the boat isn't running on the lift I have to tow it with my other boat meaning need 3 drivers.

 

Or you can learn a basic amount of engine repair knowledge and fix most problems with a boat in less than an hour. Or ya know waste hours dorking with a trailer to pay someone to swap in parts and trust their diagnostic abilities. Which the number of threads about dealers having boats for months tossing parts at them makes me think no.

[vtmecheng]

@DynaSkiPete, my family always does our boat maintenance. Some how my dad has kept his 1979 going all on his own and it continues to work. Probably just good luck over almost 40 years.

[eleeski]

We are lucky in Socal to have a resource like Doug Moss. He is a very savvy traveling mechanic with a well stocked mobile parts inventory. He's fixed my boat and several others on site - avoiding the difficulty of trailering and finding a competent dealer.

 

We do have some quality dealers around as well (Chuck Sax California skier in Elsinore comes to mind) so that is a good option as well.

 

Of course, some of us are just crazy and enjoy doing silly mechanic things like reengineing old boats...

 

Eric

[thager]

Whatever I can do myself I do. Allergic to KY!

[DynaSkiPete]

Now I'll shock you. Probably setting myself up for a failure too after 31 years of skiing. I've never missed a minute other than for a dead battery. Put the charger on it to start it and bought a new battery later just to be sure. Batteries are good for 4 to 8 years from my experience. I'm very lucky it seems or is it that newer outboards have fewer problems?

[BraceMaker]

@DynaSkiPete I've had a 1988 boat in service approaching 20 years. Have a 94 in service about the same. How old is your engine?

[Chef23]

I have a 2002 Response LX that never gave me a minute of trouble and when I tried to start it for the first time last week it would crank but not start. I have spark but haven’t had time to do any more diagnostics. Hoping to check fuel next and maybe it is as simple as a fuel pump.

 

Regarding dealers it is a pain in the ass. Malibu dealer is an hour away and always a long lead time. I have friends that are good mechanically and have been able to help me out so far b

[DynaSkiPete]

I replace engines every 4 years or so. Some I have kept longer. For several years when the technology in outboards was changing almost monthly (software) I'd do it every year. Current one is on it's fourth season. It does cost money to do this. But a little every year ($500 to $1000 per year average) is fairly painless. Of course it is easy with outboards. Around here in Northeastern Wisconsin there are not many places to get inboards or outboards serviced. Seems dealers are slowly disappearing. I tell customers when they are deciding what brand of motor to buy on Dyna-Ski or other outboard powered boats to check their area for service dealers. Ask your friends and look at what brands the neighbors own. Buy a motor you can get serviced!

 

My ski buddy has a 1990 Evinrude 150 V-6 two stroke that is still purring right along but he has decided to repower the boat as he sees the huge difference in fuel consumption between our two 150's.

 

My dealer friends say they make their money doing service, selling docks & lifts, installing docks and lifts, removing docks and lifts along with providing storage. Storage is huge. Some handle transportation of the boats to/from the lake in spring and fall. A few even provide services of lawn cutting, snow removal, checking on their customers houses, etc. The service orientated dealers are all doing quite well it appears. Competing with the mega dealers prices make it have for them to make any money on sales but they often pickup all their service work. None of them are cheap.

[Sethro]

@Chef23 if it has been sitting a long time, try carefully closing off the return line back to the tank with some needle nose vise grips. I ran out of fuel once 10 years ago and feared I fried my pump...turns out it just wouldn’t prime till I did that. It happened one more time after a winter layup too about 8 years ago. This is on a 1998 Echelon with the monsoon.

[Andre]

Hey @2Valve

Where are we on this?

[Chef23]

@Sethro it has been sitting all winter. I will try this before ordering a new pump.

[2Valve]

@Andre

I've been busy moving so here's where I'm at. I picked up a MEFI-4 code scanner over the weekend and plugged it in yesterday morning. And of course, there's no error codes.

 

I didn't have time to check base timing, well, because I've got awesome buddies and when a Response LXi pulls up to your dock, basically begging you to ski, , it's 6am and the lake is crystalline glass, well.......someone's gotta tear it up!

 

So I need to set base timing, and take it out for a fuel pressure check at 2500+ rpm. Then I'll check the fuel line pickup screen/check valve from the fuel tank.

 

I hope I can do that tonight after my Pilates class with my gorgeous Instructor.

I try not to miss Pilates....:)

 

2Valve

[Andre]

@2Valve

Pix of the instructor?

 

No problems,i understand.My to do list is growing and i'll probably never see the bottom of it!

[Chef23]

@Sethro we put a fuel pressure gauge on the valve, cycled the key of a few times and it started right up. First time the fuel pressure was a little low but then it came up to where it should be.

[Zman]

@2Valve A while back in this thread @Stevie Boy mentioned the crankcase position sensor. These can go completely bad at once, and the engine will crank but not start. They can go bad just when hot, or they can act erratically and cause rough running. The CKP controls the ignition timing based on a number of input variables.

If this was your issue, seems you would be getting an error code though.

Still might be worth checking it out.

Maybe you know someone whose boat uses the same sensor? Would be quick and easy to swap out and try.

There should also be camshaft sensors.

[rayn]

@Zman I just had one of those go on my 2016 and it did throw a code. It is a simple fix.

 

The question is does a 2002 have such a sensor?

[Zman]

@rayn I would think yes. But, maybe not yet on a boat 5.7l. Just changed one in my 2016 5.7l and it is the same sensor as a 1997 Suburban with 5.7l.

I think they have been in use since engines went distributor-less.

 

[RAWSki]

I am sure you already checked but I had a similar problem with my 2000 Eclipse with a Scorpion EFI engine running out of gas. Turns out the engine in its "last gasp" sucked all the gas out of the water - separater filter . And the fuel pump wasn't able to refill it enough during the priming to create proper pressure. Long story short. I just removed the filter manually filled it with gas and re-installed . Engine started everytime . (Yes I ran dry 3-4 times over 12 years!) .

[2Valve]

@RAWSki

Appreciate that.

 

I did further testing yesterday morning before my set. Fuel pressure gauge shows a constant 30psi (good) at idle. The problem exhibited itself at idle this time, idling and appearing to stall and then recovering. All the while, fuel pressure never deviated.

 

I had emptied the fuel control cell to check for water previously, with none seen. I removed that fuel previously also and fueled up with 25 gallons of ethanol free (from our local station).

 

I have a code scanner, so again, no trouble codes with yesterday's tests. I decided to put it in service mode to set base timing. Upon activating service mode, I was able to set base timing but then the engine died and now is back to "Cranks but but no start". I checked spark with a timing light and there isn't any, any any plug wire or from the coil to the distributor cap.

 

I'm back to that faulty pickup coil resistance reading so if I can't locate just the coil and have the time to disassemble the distributor, I may opt for the complete distributor swap.

 

2Valve

[Andre]

Don't buy the whole thing just the pick up coil.

REAL easy job to replace.You already took the distributor off,just a spring pin to punch out and you're there.

It's 10 minutes more then removing the distributor .

If you're not losing your 12 volts to the coil and your ICM is new...then...

[2Valve]

@Andre

Yeah, the more I think about it, its dumb to replace the whole distr.

 

I just need to bolt my vise to my workbench and get after it. Thanks for the "push". :)

[BraceMaker]

Also you'll need a socket big enough to seat the spring washer on the top of the coil again. Don't forget that if you're going to be at the lake!

[2Valve]

I got it disassembled last night. Pretty easy. I made sure to mark all references. My buddy's an electrician and had him over looking at the pickup coil, which looks terrible. Insulation is cracked and missing, and that weird reading of 4.5 -5megohms, always climbing was evident.

 

I will have the new coil this evening and get it back together to see if that's it. I'm confident that it is.

 

And btw, another 6am set in the course, before work does wonders for your attitude.:)

2Valve

[Andre]

You need my address to send beers? :*

 

Horton,the 70's just called.They want their emojis back!

[vtmecheng]

Just glad to hear this hasn't hindered your skiing. That's what really counts. We had the fuel pump go yesterday. Local marina had one in stock so we were back at it for an evening run.

[BraceMaker]

To me, in this application where 4.5-5,000,000 Ohms is 4500 times more resistance than you expect you can just call that out of range. Its essentially a open reading, perhaps its able to generate enough pulse to trigger the ICM occasionally but that's basically the first thing I test for no fuel at the injectors, I'll throw the timing light on, no flashy flash I don't even bother testing fuel related causes until that's right since the ECU won't fire injectors with out that signal either.

[2Valve]

@vtmecheng

I admit, I have amazing friends. I had to work this week except the 4th and my one close buddy convinced me we need to ski at 6am the last two days.

 

I sooooo love having the whole lake to ourselves, the stillness suddenly broken by that lovely V8 sound, that 'whoosh' when you make that perfect turn at 32 off. :)

[2Valve]

@BraceMaker

Agreed. Definitely out of range.

 

On a good note, my early 60's, little Johnson fishing motor runs like new. Points and condenser may be old technology, but I've never seen a set just out-right fail.

[2Valve]

Problem SOLVED!

It was the pickup coil in the distributor as suspected. New one measures a more respectable 850 ohms.

 

More fun was involved as the oil pump drive rotated when I took the dist. out to rebuild. Had to take the port side valve cover off to determine TDC (#1 cylinder) on compression stroke, get the oil pump shaft lined up, drop the dist back in, and then set base timing with my Scan tool.

 

I had a buddy who rebuilt his 383 in a 70 Roadrunner back in high school and we had to do that whole TDC routine as well, so old skills can sometimes come back to ya. Now I can get back to sharing the workload in our ski club.

 

Thanks everyone for the help and guidance. 860 hours on this motor and should be strong for another decade or so.....hoping.

 

2Valve

 

 

[BraceMaker]

Nice result!

[LeonL]

For future reference. To determine TDC take out number one spark plug, stick your finger in the hole have someone bump it over. Air pushes put and then line up crank marker. Oil pump shaft...long screw driver, rotate to suit. Or, just drop dist in, of it doesn't line up with oil pump shaft, lift and turn rotor, let drop, continue until it lines up and hits shaft slot. May take a couple of rotations to giggle shaft to proper location and agree with dist location.

[Andre]

Nice work!

Now,your boat next set!!! :)