Why do trick skiers get to choose their own boat but slalom skiers do not?

[ScarletArrow]

With the new rules being published about the new CC (mostly geared toward trick skiers) and the boat draw announced for Nationals it reminded me of a question I've had for a while - why not just let slalom skiers choose their preferred boat - likely the one they practice behind the most?

 

Isn't this the rationale for trick skiers?

 

Running orders could easily be accommodated by sorting by boat then by age division. True, a M3 skier might get a different set of conditions if CC were run in the morning and Bu were in the afternoon, but that is the case already.

 

In the very first BigDawg, before it was sponsored by CC, skiers were allowed to choose which boat they wanted to ski behind in the H2H format.

[The_MS]

It was skiers choice for boat for prelims also. Most chose cc so other sponsors dropped out.

[eleeski]

@ScarletArrow How much do you trick? Sorry if that's rude but the boat variations in its wake, table and speed are equivalent to riding a different slalom ski. Really.

 

Now, I can get on different slalom skis and run buoys. But I will choose the ski I've been training with before a big tournament.

 

Same with boats. Except my boat is not current. So I figure out weighting and rope lengths to simulate an available boat and train that. It's not a random draw.

 

For some tournaments (like senior worlds which I hope to attend) there is no boat choice. With the new Nautique as the only option, I've got to get enough time behind it to figure out settings that work well and how to simulate them in practice. Workable (I hope) if I can find a boat to spend some hours behind (thanks @Krlee for the invite - hundreds of miles away but still awesome).

 

Eric

[jhughes]

Eric, I don't think SA is putting down the trick boat choice. I think he's wondering why slalom can't also have that choice too. So it's an additive request, not subtractive.

[ScarletArrow]

I don't trick at all except to play around and let my kids laugh at me. My daughter is pretty good (nationals) and my son is progressing well (regionals).

 

I'm not saying trick skiers shouldn't get to choose - I'm just saying it's seems inconsistent to allow trick and not slalom (and jump).

 

As for wake variations...

 

Any below max speed and 15off crowd (which is most skiers) will tell you there is a substantial difference (especially w/ 197 and Bu).

 

I hear plenty of higher ranked skiers complain when they don't get their preferred boat at a tournament.

 

Granted it less about wakes and more about engine & ZO combinations, but the principle is the same - we all want to compete what we practice behind.

[escmanaze]

Indeed, that seems like the silliest rule I've ever heard of. I pay $60k to buy a late model prostar, I practice behind it all season, and then I show up to the tournament just to find out that there is nothing under the sun I can do to be allowed to ride behind the boat that is right there on the dock that is most comparable to my boat that I'm used to. You gotta be kidding me. I don't ski tournaments, and I don't have a late model ZO boat, but just from an outsiders perspective, this does indeed seem insane. I'm sure there is some great reason involving logistics or something like that, and yet it still seems crazy.

 

[liquid d]

hahaha...is this a trick question? It's almost too easy!

[eleeski]

I will call BS on slalomers who can't ski behind other boats. I don't believe there is a top pro who can't match their scores behind a competing boat. I watched Nate stand up behind a different boat so as not to score a record behind the "wrong" boat. And my MC 197 has pulled so many college kid slalom PBs that any difference is insignificant. The boat differences are too subtle in slalom and jump.

 

But tricks? Assign a Centurion (still current) and nobody will make a flip. Assign an old 196 (allowed by the current rules) and nobody will run a toe pass. Fact!

 

I'm not sure anyone ever chose a Centurion at Regionals for tricks. But it is a fine slalom boat. Assigning it at tournaments assures that the boat is qualified and available for practice. Might even help some slalom performances. Random assignments allows new boats a fair chance without hurting the skiers.

 

The current issues with the new Nautique are probably related to lack of familiarity with the boat - skiers and drivers. Circumvent the assignments and nobody will ever get the needed experience. Note that by the end of the tournament Big Dawg scores ended where they should have been.

 

Sorry if I'm so strident. The system has worked well for decades. It's not the problem. But a "solution" could be problematic in a time where we can't get boats to a tournament.

 

Eric

[MISkier]

@eleeski,

 

I agree that there isn't "a top pro who can't match their scores behind a competing boat". That is because every single boat is designed for 36 mph and 32 off and shorter. For 28 off, 22 off or less than 34 mph - not so much. The super bummer is that the skier community is not solely top pros.

 

I would be surprised if any of those college PBs were ones that the skier ran 22 off behind that 197 and especially if it was less than 36 mph.

[BraceMaker]

Don't they normally offer choice since they concurrently run boats in trick. Don't see slalom doing that other than H2H formats.

[eleeski]

@MISkier I have had a couple college kids at 36 but the worst part of my wake is 30 mph 15 off. Exactly where so many PBs happened.

 

I'm not sure where you got that idea about the MC 197. I skied lots of 22 off 34 passes with no problem. It has an excellent slalom wake throughout. But I have been skiing long enough to have some experience behind truly horrendous boats. None of the modern boats are limiting in slalom, including my 2011 MC 197 at any speed or line.

 

But the trick wake is the best. Not the only reason they learn so many new tricks behind it - but it helps.

 

Eric

[MISkier]

@eleeski, I would say the tougher wake on the 197 is at 22 off, not 15. Not only did I have some issue with it compared to other boats of that era, but I spent many days on the dock at tournaments overhearing complaints from much younger (and much older) skiers that were skiing at less than 34 mph and in the 15 off and 22 off range. It does seem like it would be a good trick wake, but there were, and are, many other boats with far superior slalom wakes.

[eleeski]

As an owner of 3 of that hull, I disagree that there is any real wake issue. Lots of Koolaid fueled disinformation but nothing real. World records and skiers developed before my eyes says more than whispering at a tournament starting dock.

 

Eric

[MISkier]

Groaning, not whispering.

[MISkier]

But, those complaining are nobodies, anyway. Just paid entrants and memberships.

[eleeski]

Post deleted. Bait spat out.

 

Eric

[MISkier]

I owned a 2000 Prostar 205 (based on the 1995-1997 190 Hull) from 2004 to 2010. And, yes, there was a bump at 22 off. Not bad and I would say better than the 197. I actually like the 1993 - 1997 MasterCrafts a lot - as well as the current Prostar. I am relating what I heard (unsolicited) at many tournaments. And, I did not like the 197 as much as other boats.

 

As a tournament driver, I have pulled many kids and inexperienced skiers of all ages.

 

I guess I would support slalom skier boat choice at tournaments and I would not state that skiers of all levels would be able to score identically behind any boat. There are differences and skier preference is valid.

 

I’m not a kool aid drinker. Have a 2009 Malibu LX now. Club boats are a 2017 Prostar and a 2018 Nautique (which drives great). Past club boat 2016 TXi was great. The 2017 TXi from last year was serviceable. I’ve also really liked the Centurion.

 

Why shouldn’t we try to make the experience as comfortable and enjoyable as possible?

[ScarletArrow]

I'll admit there are far larger issues with skiing today... it's mostly a curiosity.

 

Turning this into which slalom wakes are good or the same is off-topic.

 

The only people who say "all wakes are the same" are at their max speed and/or 28off.

 

They have forgotten the struggle is real at 28mph 15off, especially before the 196, 200 and current Prostar came about.

 

The trick skiers who were able to pull of this rule heist were either smarter than the rest of us or just divas who complained enough to get their own way (or both).

 

Any performance reason that a trick skier use to defend the rule would apply to slalom skiers - it's just a matter of degree.

 

I've seen plenty of skiers - kids and adults alike - get tied up in knots about getting the "wrong" boat draw at tournament.

 

If I pay 100k train behind a new CC, but I have to ski another boat at tournament - it's not the end of the world, but it still stinks.

 

I just think it would be cool if slalom skiers had the same luxury as trick skiers.

[Chef23]

I think it is somewhat of a timing thing. Tournament slalom sets seem to move quicker than trick sets and the turnovers are usually very quick. If it is a full tournament it is important to keep things moving.

[elr]

Well for backyard record tournaments the Open skiers can switch between Open, International, and Age groups to get the slalom boat they want.

[Intheday]

Just wondering if the rule is because there is less trick skiers at any given tournament therefore the logistics in changing boats is less of a headache.