Thoughts on "older" (2005 and earlier) tournament boats?

[SSG223]

I suspect this is a pretty common problem, but I'm the old guy that loves to ski, while everyone else loves to surf. That's a pretty tough combo to fit into one boat, which we tried with a 2014 Malibu VTX. I'm just an open water skier, and despite different line lengths, this boat just seems to have tall wakes with a deep swell on the outside. I am sure a better skier would probably do fine with it, but it does seem to be holding me back from making progress.

 

But it's also not the best surf boat, it is a "compromise" boat after all, and a very small one at that (4 - 5 people and she's pretty full). So we're thinking about just buying a new 23'er for surfing, then buy an older pure ski boat for my early morning runs.

 

Question for the informed readers is what boat to get? I'd like to stay in the sub-$20k range with 200 - 250 hours, which up here in the Seattle area seems to put me in the 2005 and older range. I don't know if there is a right answer to this question, but are there particular boats that are better than others? I also want / need one with some form of cruise, but as noted, I'm just an open water skier, so I don't need anything too fancy or super precise.

 

My impression is that Nautiques, Malibu's, and MasterCrafts seemed to be the top of the heap at the time, is that fair? Are the different boats known for different characteristics? We don't EVER ski a course, so tracking isn't super critical for us. I'm just looking for small, soft wakes, maybe not at a full rope length, but don't need something that can run super short lines either. What about the other brands like MB or Centurion?

 

Thanks in advance for any guidance you can share, appreciate you taking the time to review this and provide feedback.

 

Scott

 

[Jmoski]

Early 2000’s should get you in range price wise, but they will have many more hours that 250. A well maintained boat with 800 hours has a lot of life in it.

 

Try stick to fuel injected boats that ideally have perfect pass/Stargazer version 9 installed.

 

Can’t go wrong with any of the big 3.

 

Good luck with your search.

[Andre]

03-05 Nautique 196.

250 hrs is a bit of a stretch but for 20k expect boats with 600-700 hrs wich will last you the rest of your skiing carrer!

[oldjeep]

4-5 people in a vtx is pretty full? How big are you and your crew ?

 

In any event, look for an early 2000s malibu lxi. Great ski boat.

[6balls]

Any SN '97 and up. Find the best value. Could also go '91-'94 MC 190 with EFI.

 

Having said that...it may feel a little whacky but shorten to 28 off...run at least 32 mph and see how the VTX does.

 

DAVE

[shansen345]

1997 or newer Ski Nautiques are all fantastic. 1994-1997 MasterCraft PS190 is another great option. The 1994 and 95-97 are different hulls, but 1994 was the first year that EFI was standard. Most prefer the 1991-1994 hull, but I am partial to the 1995-1997 for a few reasons. 1999 or newer Response would also do well by you.

[UWSkier]

Have you tried bow ballast with the VTX, and as Dave said, skiing at 28 off? It's not too shabby at that length with a bit of weight in the front, and with a light crew and less than 1/2 tank of fuel.

 

If you're long-lining it and never going past 22 off, it's tough to beat the wake of a Malibu Response LXi. All boats from that era will have a bump at 22, some more than others.

[Chef23]

I wouldn’t worry too much about the hours there are no problems with a thousand hours or so on a boat of that vintage if it has been well maintained. I have a 2002 Malibu Response LX and it is a great boat. It skis well, has a great wake and drives well. A boat of that vintage can be had for 15-18k and for skiing open water is perfect.

 

I know it is blasphemy on here but I find the wake on that era Response to be a little softer than a 196. The 196 does track a bit better which makes it easier to drive in the course but if you are free skiing that wouldn’t be an issue.

[bigskieridaho]

This is sweet boat and with ZO! Just saw it the other day.

 

http://www.ski-it-again.com/php/skiitagain.php?endless=summer&topic=Search&category=Boat_3Event&postid=47150

[Chef23]

@bigskieridaho that is a good deal and looks super clean.

[Chef23]

This fits the bill perfectly and says negotiable.

http://www.ski-it-again.com/php/skiitagain.php?endless=summer&topic=Search&category=Boat_3Event&postid=47145

 

No ZO but low hours.

[UWSkier]

No cruise at all on that '03 but that's a great boat for slalom duty.

[SSG223]

Wow, this is great insight, many, many thanks to all of you for taking the time to provide some thoughts.

 

Dave / UWSkier - thanks for the guidance on the bow weight, we had not tried that, nor had I tried shortening the line that much. I'm off this week and will give that a shot!

 

Lots of great insight here, need to noodle on this some more.

 

Anybody have experience outside those big three, such as the Centurion or MB from the late 90's / early 00's?

[oldjeep]

I dont run any bow weight in my vtx. Tried it a couple times and it changed the look of the wake, but not really the feel. Ski it at 32mph 15 off on a radar vapor.

[Andre]

Absolutly no need for ZO for a solo open water skier...PP Classic would be plenty good...and i would stick to an original engine in its original hull.Plenty avalaible in your price range.

[gt2003]

Let's go back even further. I got a great deal on a 1996 Malibu Echelon with PerfectPass speed control which I upgraded to the latest software. It's got the Indmar 320 motor, about 1150 or so hours and pulls me outta the water at 210 lbs like nobody's business. The wake is pretty much not noticeable, even at 26.7 MPH. I didn't think I would buy something this old but I'm VERY HAPPY with my purchase. There's now money to spare for a recreationally themed pontoon to use after the morning slalom sessions.

[Chef23]

I missed no cruise on the 03 Malibu. A good negotiating lever and not a hard addition if you have a handy friend.

 

I don’t have any insight on the non big 3 around that era but I would tend to stay with the major brands in that era as your budget will support it.

[Ski_Dad]

1999-2004 Response lxi or Sunsetter lxi if you want open bow or a Nautique 196

[6balls]

@gt2003 agree the Echelon rocks. @Mitzysman is correct a Sunsetter does an amazing job of throwing a slalom wake and handling smaller than its size...yet a pretty family friendly open bow.

My two cents is to optimize your VTX, tho. Rarely seen a two boat system work in a family. It's a diamond hull on your VTX(hopefully it was optional). Work with rope and speed to find a nice spot for skiing. Then with enough ballast and the wedge you should be able to kick a nice surf wake. If you don't have a 2013 or newer with surf system...look at wake shapers that you can attach with suction cups to the non-surf side...about $400.

[SSG223]

Dave - I've already shortened the rope and going to give that a shot tomorrow. Two boats could work for us, as we're fortunate enough to live on the lake. I'm the only skier, so just have to drag my kid out of bed to go ski before the lake gets too torn up.

 

Then later, when it finally warms up here (we're in Seattle, it takes awhile), go out and do some surfing. But obviously an expensive solution, as it's not just the extra boat, but also insurance, another lift, etc.

 

We do have a 2014 with Surf Gate, so that does help the boat quite a bit. But we've played around quite a bit, and vs the big boats, the "pocket" just seems very small and close to the boat vs the new Nautique's, MC's, Centurions, etc.

 

Hopefully I can make some good progress with the VTX though, that's the most efficient solution!

 

 

[escmanaze]

For what you're describing, I can't imagine anything better than a 97-09 ski nautique. I'm really not a brand loyal honk. In fact I want my next boat to be a MC (2014+) and I'm constantly trying to talk my Dad into buying a TXi. But for what you have described here, I would have a very have focus toward ski nautiques. Or at least ski one before you buy anything so that anything you buy can be compared so that you know what you might be missing out on.

 

Other brands...meh...why? I mean it can't hurt to keep an open mind if something happens to come up, but there isn't really anything there worth mentioning specifically around your set of needs for this boat. If so, they would probably be very few and far between and hard to come by anyway.

 

And I agree on your hours estimate being low. 50 hours per year seems just very very normal and acceptable and starting at 2005, that would start you at 650 hours.

[BrennanKMN]

TSC1 Ski Nautique. No questions.

However, good luck finding one with that few of hours. I'd personally be scared of a boat that old that sat that much.

[Justin_C]

@SSG223 I have a 97 MB Sports Boss 200LS. Very well built boats and has a PCM GT40 (efi) which is the same engine used in nautiques for years. Our only issue was shortly after we bought it we had to replace the transmission after some service by the previous owner where we can only assume they didn't realign the motor and transmission correctly leading to a cracked bell housing.

 

Being no fault of the boat, motor or transmission, I would highly recommend it in your case. The only thing I notice when skiing the boat is that once you get beyond -28 in a head wind you start getting pelted by the spray off the side of the boat. Besides that, the wakes are awesome and it drives very well. Lots of useful storage in the 200 model. Ours still has less than 500 hours.

 

If you were closer I'd offer to sell it as we have been eyeing up something a touch newer that's a little friendlier on the skin when getting into short line skiing in a headwind. Feel free to message me if you have any questions!

(sorry the pictures not the best, I can try and find a better one)

 

[DW]

@SSG223: You have lots of excellent options, one thing to add to your decision matrix, part commonality. If you get a second Malibu, good chance many of the service items or even specific boat repair parts will be the same, then troubleshooting any issues will also be similar. Might make life a bit simpler once you have 2 boats to maintain. Not only than, a Response LX, LXI are both excellent slalom machines (and great for barefooting). If you do split branding, you might try at least to get same marinizer (Indmar, PCM, etc). The outlier may be a Nautique as they were the most recent (older boat) Ford customer.

[DavidN]

I would go with an older Response. It sounds like you are on a bigger lake, so go closed bow. These boats have no known issues, are very reliable, track very well, and they throw the softest wake even at lower speeds. I’m a bit biased though (in my 3rd Response closed bow now and I absolutely loved every one of them!). From MJ 2005 on they come standard with the Malibu Cruise Control which is a paddle wheel based speed control, totally sufficient for open water slalom sets!

The Nautique 196 handles rough water a bit better and it’s bow is a tad bit higher which helps in open water but a common issue is the muffler cracking on these boats and they might be more expensive than a similar Malibu.

[jpwhit]

You really don't want of boat in this age range with only 250 hours. That would typically be a boat that hasn't been run consistently every season. Not being run for lengths of time is much worse for an engine than being run and serviced regularly.

[LoopSki]

https://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/boa/d/1993-mastercraft-prostar-190/6622667598.html

[jjackkrash]

I am curious, is it tough to get parts for a GT-40? I am not a gear head, but wasn't the GT-40 based on the 351W? It seems like Ford stopped building that engine a long time ago.

[oldjeep]

@jjackkrash they did, and a nautique fan will be the only person you will ever hear suggesting a 351 is a good idea

[wtrskier197]

Had a 2000 moomba outback. First inboard we had so wake was great coming from an i/o. Great boat, simple vinyl stitching in seats so never a problem. After upgrading to 06 Mc prostar 197 we were even more impressed with the wake of that outback. Not much difference imo. Both had same indmar engine, the moomba wasn't as efficient because of aftermarket carburetor versus efi. Sold moomba in 2013 or 14 with 190 hours never any issues with a boat that had low hours.

[Killer]

@oldjeep that's utter garbage and most likely something a brand loyal person would say, so touche..

 

I've owned a bunch of different (older) ski boats, both with 350s and 351s, and currently a GT40 equipped Nautique. I loved my Malibu with the base 310hp carb'd 350 and never any issues with it, great boat and motor.

 

But my bubble butt nautique with the GT40 is light years a better ski boat. Motor is rock solid and easy to work on. 351W are known as being uber reliable for obvious reasons. Prior to me owning it, this boat was not cared for as I would have liked, basically driven hard and put away wet.

 

Yet my 17 year old GT40 still turns over 4800rpm as per spec, idles perfect and holds speed damn well. All I've done is replace the fluids. Did plugs, rotor, cap and belts this past year, all were factory original from the previous owner. A ski buddy has a 95 and similar story.

 

@jjackkrash all of these parts are readily available from either ski boat stores like skidim or nautiqueparts and many can be cross referenced to motorcraft, ford or other aftermarket parts. The only issue I've heard is the computer program is PCM, while the ECM is ford and PCM no longer services them. The file is available and new or remanned ECMs are available to be programmed. Not a common problem, but with older boats, and a marine environment I assume we'll begin seeing more issues.

 

[oldjeep]

It isnt brand loyalty. I need a new long block all the sudden , if i have a chev 350 engine i can get a marine longblock just about anywhere shipped tommorrow for a good price. 351 gt40 marine longblock - good luck.

[Killer]

@oldjeep I haven't looked recently because my 351 is nowhere near needing a new block, but 351w marine reman engines are readily available from the aftermarket. Granted, not as available as the 350.

 

The PCM GT40 isn't really anything special, as I understand it, its essentially heads and MEFI system, so unless the heads are warped you can save them, or by chance you need new they are also available aftermarket. I think the cam is slightly different from standard 351w, but you can use a standard cam and likely notice zero difference.

 

 

[BraceMaker]

Fjords - http://www.michiganmotorz.com/ford-351w-marine-engine-remanufactured-p-3539.html

Chebbies - http://www.michiganmotorz.com/350ci-vortec-base-marine-engine-1996-current-replacement-p-109.html

 

That said if you were sitting on a blown engine in a otherwise solid boat wouldn't you consider a complete swap to a ZO engine?

[oldjeep]

@BraceMaker are nautiques reverse rotation? Because that is all they have available at that link.

[Cent]

Excellent maintenance can be more important than hours. Finding fine maintenance is a big plus. Maintained well they keep going.

 

I ordinarily use a Carbon Pro with the 6.0 PCM. However I have kept a 2001Centurion Eclipse. Small soft wakes. Works well at the lengths you listed. Mine has never had any engine issue. It is a Mercruiser 350. I have replaced a steering cable. Also tightened packing box. Nothing else. Not a well known boat but people that try to ski behind it love it.

 

Also have a 1994 MC Pro Star. First year with fuel injection. Has good wakes; people seek out these boats for good reason. It has been a back up boat for me. Probably less than 200 hours. If you find one with good maintenance it will work. Same with a 95 through 97 MC. I kept one, a 95 Sammy Duvall with the Corvetter for years. Only maintenance normally needed on these boats is oil change, possible tune up when needed, and in line fuel filter. MC factory once told me over 90 per cent of the time after fuel injection arrived if a customer has a performance issue it will be the filter.

 

Also have regular access to a 1986 MC Pro Star Power Slot. Going strong. Well maintained. About 1700 hours with no major issue. Had had carbeurator rebuild. Also upholstery redone. Classic boat that looks and runs great.

 

If I were looking I would consider your best access to a marine/dealer and mechanic. Where I am located I have best access to PCM and Mercruiser. So if I were looking to buy one used boat I would be seeking Mercruiser or PCM. I like convenience and easy access to support. It keeps you up and running and the boat in the water towing.

 

Good luck. Some of the older boats well maintained boats are gems.

[BrennanKMN]

Maybe it's just me, but I would not base my ski boat purchase on which long block I could source easier. Plus like @BraceMaker said. If you are in that deep just re-power. No brainer to me.

 

With that said I never had an issue getting parts for my GT-40, but I also never needed anything more than basic preventative maintenance parts. I have also never heard of a case where someone needed to get that deep into a GT-40. I am sure there one offs though.

 

However, some other members bring up some good points about looking for commonalities if you are going the 2 boat path. I think that is a great idea. One parts shelf for two boats. I keep spare parts for most of my machines, so less parts is always good in my book.

[Killer]

@oldjeep old ones are. Somewhere around late 80s early 90s they went to standard rotation and a reverse gear reduction drive. Which means most all GT40s are std rotation.

 

& They appear to be available in both configurations from that site, incl. With the reman GT40 heads.

 

The ECM really is the only obsolete part but like I said there is a remedy for that now.

[Ripfish]

I own 02 nautique 196. Purchased new. Has 1200+ hrs. Other than impellers, oil changes i have not had to do anything else till now. It runs beautifully and interior is still in great shape. I wouldnt be scared of the hours, but here is a list of a few things that i have just completed to keep the boat in tip top shape. I performed these myself. New prop shaft packing. Easy job with a pick to get old packing out. New exhaust riser gaskets, new exhasut hoses and fiberglass elbows(my fault for crushing those with overtightened hose clamps). Clean and grease rudder. Steering cable still smooth and free, but i would plan on changing that if buying that era. New passenger seat cover from Christines. I would just plan on spending up to about $2k to take care of some deferred maintenance type things. Good luck!