Edge change

[Ilivetoski]

How voluntary is the edge change? I have read both that you are pretty much in control and I have read that it’s really not up to the skier. Also what would cause a skier to have a late edge change on one side of the course and have a good edge change on the opposite side?

[Ed_Johnson]

@Ilivetoski ... The difference is that on your onside you can usually get a more forward COM stack, causing the ski to accelerate better, therefore a crisper edge change. If your offside pull is neutral to back, then not as good of an acceleration, you may pull a little longer to compensate, and the edge change is slower.

 

Sorry to say, "Ask me how I know" !!!

 

 

[ShererSkier]

Funny you asked, I’ve been wondering the same thing. I’ve read both theories on this site and I’m not sure. I was having a trouble early this summer getting slack and I realized I was edge changing too late so lately I’ve been making a conscious effort to edge change but still maintain my lean and tension on the rope. It’s been working good since I’ve started. I’d like to hear more about this.

[Chef23]

It is all about speed. The more speed you generate the earlier the edge change can happen. Given that most skiers generate more speed in their onside pull leads to an earlier edge change into your offside turn.

[Horton]

For more advanced skiers it mostly just happens. The things the skier does right or wrong really dictate when it happens. (I tend to pull long when the rope gets short because I load too much)

 

A 28 off or less and at slower speeds I think the skier has a lot more "choice" as to when they think they can edge change. If it is conscious or unconscious choice is going to vary from skier to skier.

 

Bottom like is ALWAYS if you can make enough speed before the center line to edge change immediately after the center line and still get to the ball that is the best option.

[Ilivetoski]

@Horton but it’s hard to create speed, without creating load. And the way I read what you said, it sounds like you need speed to get an early edge change, but if you load too much, you end up pulling long, how do you balance these two?

[SkiJay]

The skier is totally in control of when their ski changes edges. But the difference between a late edge change well past the second whitewater and a proper edge change through the second wake often comes down to the skier's understanding of what is supposed to be happening during the cut.

 

If you think of a crossing as having distinctive separate parts like first I'm going to cut, then I'm going to change edges, then I'll be in the pre-turn, your edge change is going to be late.

 

There is no time to pause in any static position during the cut. Every moment you spend frozen in cutting position is making your edge change later and later. If you strive to move your ski and hips past the rope as quickly as possible from the moment you first feel the load from the boat, your ski will automatically change edges as it passes you behind the boat. Moving your hips and ski through the cut like this is a physical, proactive move that takes core strength. If it's new to you, you'll know when you are doing it and you'll love what you see in your videos.

 

In essence, an early, fluid, edge change starts right at the beginning of the cut, not as the next step after the cut.

[Horton]

@skijay so what I said?

[Horton]

@Ilivetoski well yea welcome to slalom skiing. We should all make more speed with less load but it is freaking hard. Yes you need as much speed as you can get to change edges early. As an example if when you try to make more speed you drop your hips and lean hard you are mostly creating load but not much speed. On the other hand if you get your hips as far forward as is practical and keep your shoulders level you will make more speed with out as much extra load. Then you can change edges early and flow out to a nice early apex.

[SkiJay]

Yup @Horton, what you said.

[sandlakeskier]

I find that you can be in control of your edge change if you take a few sets and really focus on when you want it to happen

[Justin_C]

I find the edge change to be more a matter of whether or not it's a conscious decision. On my harder passes I need to make sure I'm not pulling too long so it is something I control. On my easier passes I settle into a rhythm and I don't think about it, it just happens.

[ktm300]

Since I am in a long running slump, I've been experimenting with things trying to find a way out. I just don't see any 55k skiers change edges at centerline. Just watched Regina's WR video. Not centerline. While it does make sense that IF you had enough speed, one could do this, I sure as hell cannot figure out how to get that speed before the CL. Ain't from lack of trying and studying. I have ridden in the boat watching a lot of kids ski at 55k and I do see them accelerate off the ball such that they could, and some do, have a much earlier edge change. The heaviest one is 115lb and down from there. The lighter the better it seems. Please show me video of someone who weighs 185 lbs at 55k changing edges at the CL so I can try to understand what the ____ they are doing :)

[Horton]

Centerline might be an unachievable ideal but it should be the target. There is no question that as you pull much past the second wake you are losing ground technically and literally.

 

The below video is far from perfect but it is the best I can do in terms of edge change.

 

[Drago]

@ktm300 don't stress about it, its Best Case Optimum technique. Lots of variables including weight, ZO settings,and ski set up

[Horton]

@Drago I'm an increasingly strong proponent of not pulling longer than necessary mostly because I see skiers who already have issues with connection compounding their connection issues by pulling long and getting peeled apart.

[ktm300]

Well, @horton just moved up to no. 1 Clearly, it can be done...just not by me...yet. Horton should stay on that Denali till he runs 39.

[WaterSkier12]

Fin changes to help?

[ShererSkier]

I think because I've been skiing at -15 and -22 so much that I got into a habit of pulling longer and that was messing up -28 and -32 because I feel like the edge change has to happen earlier. I imagine the increase in boat speed from 32 to 34 also played into this as well. What I've started doing lately is thinking about starting my edge change coming into the first wake and it feels like it happens on time and I stay connected way better. Eventually I guess it will be more automatic from doing it so much, I'm anxious for Sunday to get some video on the course and see what I can improve!

[Horton]

@ktm300 I pulled out this old video because I was skiing really good (for me) at the time and working on early edge change. Day in and day out I pull longer than that and I think it is a bad thing.

[slow]

Looks great on the Denali

[Drago]

@Horton totally agree, just it takes time, and thinking you're a failure because you can't do it is no bueno. When I set up a ski I make it faster and faster until I can change through centerline, but it doesn't mean I'm always successful. @WaterSkier12 fin forward, bindings back, shorter fin, less beer

[WaterSkier12]

Thanks Drago!!

I’m retired, son is 13 and doesn’t drink beer, yet.....That I know of ;-)

He’s having trouble with his edge change going to 2/4-RFF@28 off, long pull and resulting slack. He has run the pass about 10-15 times but consistency is the issue

He’s on an Arc-S

I’ll bump it forward a bit.

[Chef23]

@WaterSkier12 take a look at his gate also. As the passes get harder for me if I am not high enough on the boat at the gate I find I feel the need to pull longer into 2 which flows down the course.

[mwetskier]

I took the above video and clicked on the settings button to get one-quarter speed then repeatedly clicked on the start / pause button to watch a couple of frames at a time. I dont want to be argumentative but i couldn't hardly find *any* edge changes that happened any where near the centerline. a lot of them happen in the white water and a few even happen at the fare edge of the white water.

 

so i pulled up the slow motion video of regina jaquess and even slowed that down to one quarter speed. heres a screen shot of her typical onside wake crossing at 32 off (i think) and theres no way shes changes edges anywhere near the centerline.

the second shot is from the above video of @horton. i apologize for the crappy cell phone pics of my desktop monitor but thats what i have so thats what i use.

 

What am i missing here? to my eye i dont see these edge changes actually happening any where near centerline and we *are* looking at a typical good side pull of the very best female skier in the world. is it me, or am i the only one who cant see the emperors new clothes? (ps -dont shoot the messenger).

 

 

[Wish]

@mwetskier CL is where the process starts and in some cases even before that. I see edge change as a range from where the ski starts to role to new edge and when it's actually on the new edge. I think when someone says you want to get an earlier edge change, they are speaking in terms of a range. The edge having changed happens as you say...white water or just outside for us mortals.

[Wish]

Prob one of the best at early edge change. You can clearly see the transition happening at CL. And any excuse to post TWhisperer is worth posting

 

[A_B]

Boat speed and rope length play a pretty big role in when and where the actual change happens. 36 mph and shorter line creates more speed to allow the ski to cast out so I think the edge change can happen sooner than say 28 off at 34 mph.

 

Nate looks like he changes edge behind the boat and comes off the second wake on edge more than most and sometimes it looks like he changes at the first wake. But he gets crazy angle off the ball.

 

From WSM article:

 

Coach Gordon Rathbun, who recently hosted Smith, Chris Parrish, Thomas Degasperi and Will Asher for a tournament in Acapulco earlier this year, had this to say about Smith’s distinctive edge change; “He transitions early, dead center behind the boat, while the other guys are pulling past the centerline. When you edge past the centerline of the boat the boat pulls your arms away from you while putting your ski on the inside edge sooner and harder.”

 

Smith’s view of his edge change is consistent with Rathbun’s analysis. He says, “Edging out of the turn I try to have my hardest load between the white wash and the first wake. When I start my transition behind the boat, I’m releasing the ski with my lower body onto its turning edge while maintaining line tension with a focus on back arm pressure (left arm when cutting to the left) that helps the ski move away from me.”

 

Smith’s connection to the handle during this moment is what really stands out. Since his arms (especially his elbows) don’t get pulled away from his body, he’s able to maintain a balanced position on the ski while he creates more space before the buoy. “At this point, I think about standing tall and pushing the front of the ski in the water,” explains Smith. “That’s something that Scott Tynan used to tell me at a young age. I lift my heels and push my weight to the balls of my feet. I’m driving the ski with my front foot and toes.”

 

 

 

 

[Horton]

when do you think this started?

 

 

[coach3]

First wake

[mwetskier]

i guess i prefer the word ' transition ' rather than ' edge change ' because a transition is by definition a process with a beginning middle and end. the concept of an actual *change* of the edges, on the other hand, seems like a pretty brief and defined moment - that instant when the skier is no longer riding one edge of the ski, but instead is riding the other edge. semantics? for sure, but slalom theory is already complex enough that i think any effort to clarify what we mean is effort well spent. as always, imo.

[Horton]

Ok @mwetskier to me "Edge Change" starts when the skier begins to come off the pulling edge. The longer the rest of the process takes the better.

[ozski]

@Horton I would like to understand why you think it should be a slow process when I see a lot of variation in the way the top skiers transition. That includes where it starts, where it ends and how long it takes. I'm not sure you can apply a blanket rule because there are so many variables from one skier to the next.

[Texas6]

I like Hortons theory as written above, but the process of coming off the pulling edge to the turning edge still widely varies depending on how much angle and speed gets created in the work zone. Watching Terry he lieterally seems to go from one to the other through the wakes in one movement, but that works for him because his work zone is crazy efficient. Others with less efficient angle and speed might fight that edge change a bit longer to ensure they carry speed and angle outbound

[Horton]

One of the things that skiing world has learned from Nate Smith is that you can still lean with your shoulders relatively long after your ski has rolled off it's pulling Edge. The picture I posted above of @ColeGiacopuzzi is a great example of this. His ski is almost flat on the water but his shoulders are still leaned away from the pylon. This allows Cole to ski away from Centerline in the most efficient way possible. Because the ski is flat it is in the lowest drag position possible. If he were to have a more traditional edge change and go quickly from pulling edge to turning edge he would decelerate much sooner and run a narrower line to the ball.

 

That @ozski is why a longer transition is ideal. Personally I cannot keep my shoulders moving the way Cole does but by trying to avoid a super snap edge change I carry more speed away from the wakes allowing me to draw a wider line in front of the buoy.

[Horton]

Instead of trying to explain why early at change is good let's talk about why late edge change is bad.

 

1 ) As you pull past centerline the load in your hands quickly increases and eventually starts pulling the handle off your hips. Then you experience separation and run a fast narrow line at the buoy.

 

2 ) the later your edge change the shorter your pre turn.

 

I believe @AdamCord promotes a somewhat more radical version of what I've stated above.

 

( The above comments reflect shortline slalom. If you are working at longer line lengths or slower speeds these ideals may be impractical)

[Ed_Johnson]

Here is the method of edge change I have used for years that works for me, and Seth did a good video of it. It encompasses what Horton said about holding your lean while the lower body does the edge change. You can actually feel the ski accelerate into the cast out when done properly. The Reverse C.

 

You can set it at :21 for Seth's instruction.

 

 

 

[ozski]

@Horton for you the equation must be a whole lot different than Nate for example, he's lighter than you and to the best of my knowledge this week skis on a bigger ski at a faster speed, my point being that different skiing styles, ski's, setups, speeds, weights, angle and load all play into the equation. Moving at center line I agree with you but riding a flat ski for longer is not what I see when I watch Terry Winter or Robert Pigozzi for example. To me they transition quickly and ride the pendulum out about as efficiently as anyone. Parish and Freddie appear to me to be different again, data on average distances traveled edge to edge would be interesting.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bj2nshoAane/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[Horton]

@ozski no you are missing the point. It is in fact a transition. There is no "distance from edge to edge" because the ski is in fact in a constant state of roll.

 

My point is by moderating the roll rate of the a skier will increase outbound speed and direction.

[AdamCord]

@Horton I'm an advocate of slowing down the edge change by rolling the ski more slowly. That's because the ski is more efficient the closer it is to riding flat. In that area from CL to the 2nd whitewash when the edge change "transition" is taking place, we want to carry as much of the speed that we've generated as possible so that we can swing around the pylon quickly.

 

That's not to say that every top skier changes edges slowly, but it certainly has its benefits. There are some caveats to this idea though because a heavily loaded ski will need to be forced onto the new edge more abruptly, and the result will be a harder/faster transition. A faster ski/skier will have less load during the transition and they will find it more easy to slow and control the edge change. That's part of why Nate generally has an uneventful edge change. As @ozski said he's riding a big fast ski.

 

 

[Chef23]

@ozski just because a supremely talented skier can ski one way doesn’t make it right for everyone.

 

I also looking at what someone does at their hardest passes isn’t always a good comparison. What Nate does at 41 or Regina at 39 is likely different than what they would ideally like to do. I don’t have personal experience but I believe that at the extreme they are focused on getting around buoys not being perfect. You work on perfecting technique at the easier line lengths so you can be instinctual when things get hard.

[Chef23]

I just came across this video of @MarcusBrown running 28 at 34 mph. It goes to slow motion and you can clearly see Marcus changing edges super early beginning almost as he comes into the first wake. I know I don’t generate enough angle or speed out of the ball to do that but it clearly shows the art of the possible by someone with strong fundamentals.

 

[j2nh]

Textbook skiing by Marcus. His angle and speed make that look easy.

[ozski]

@Chef23 Did I post a video of Nate running -41 or of a guy cruising -32 and moving early? I'm trying to wrap my head around the blanket statement made by Horton that we should all strive to transition slowly, there are so many variables in play so I thought it was worthy of a bit more discussion. If I try to slow the transition down things don't go well for me but I'm lighter and ride a bigger ski by comparison to Horton on a 66.

[Horton]

ok @ozski what is the advantage of a faster edge change / transition?

[ozski]

Its not so black and white sorry. I think this is a discussion around definitions and how we are seeing the same thing but possibly interpreting and trying to describe it a little differently. I would describe what Nate, Terry, Robert Pigozzi, Thibaut, Marcus, Andy, Will and even Adam Caldwell do as a relatively fast transition but its all obviously very relevant to their weights, ski size, setup, angle and load. Nate is probably the closest to the flatter outbound ski angle out of all of them but he moves to that position quickly in my opinion. So my interpretation - the advantage of getting to that position quickly is that your unloading the ski from the pulling edge as efficiently as possible and allowing it to swing out and up on the boat, the way I see it a bigger faster ski makes this a little easier.

 

 

[ballsohard]

The only thing that I know about the edge change is that the faster that you accelerate the earlier your ski will change edges.

[Ed_Johnson]

I believe Nate is the best, because he is the most "Efficient" skier I have seen. The most common comment is "His 39 looks like his 32." To be around 155lbs on a 67" ski is no accident. First, look at his COM movement off the Apex. It equates to Max Angle with Max Acceleration. His lower body movement for the edge change, while maintaining his upper body lean, the REV C, is absolutely perfect. Both @AdamCord and @Horton are right on the money with their analysis, as far as the results go.

 

Newton's Law, that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, holds true here. It's about angle and acceleration off the Apex, during the downswing, which is the "Action," and the resultant Transition, ending in efficient carryout, that is the "Reaction."

 

All this, when done correctly, results in a "Rhythm," that makes your pass feel as if you put a token in a machine, and wen't along for a ride.

 

 

[slow]

Marcus has a little stripper butt going on

[matthewbrown]

Can’t believe I’m saying this but @horton is right, slowing down the edgechange is better. Unloading during this transition is not what you want to do, staying resistant with the legs, and having hips on top of ski is again optimal physics.