DaveinPa Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 First off, if there was a school or instructor not far, I would go. I learned to slalom (free ski) by dropping a ski 40+ years ago. have not been on one ski for over two years, last time I tried dropping one I fell before I could get back foot in, pulled hamstring. I then made attempts to get up with both feet "in" (1990 heavy Obrien Combos 67/68 inch) and could not, handle pops out or over the front I go. So it has been two skis since. Started fitness/core/weight training this winter; thanks to Travis @ Radar I now have a 69 inch Butterknife, gloves, and a vest that "floats" me higher. Have been out twice this year on TWO skis and feel strength and balance much better than before. So this Saturday we are going, I turn 69 on Friday (ironic?) 15 off with 150 HP outboard that is enough. So I am thinking I should do this the first ski when I am fresh; but my BIG question is do I put rear foot in RTP or leave it out and try dragging the leg? I have read a lot on this site and am undecided at this point what to try? Not sure how many attempts I have in me. I am 6'2'" and weigh 186 lbs. Once I am up one ski is not an issue, just don't know how to get there and if it does not happen this year I will probably give it all up. I ski LFF and that is the leg that got the hamstring pulled 3 years ago; wondering if it can handle the ski if I drag my right leg. Sorry this is long, just hoping for comments that may help me put this in the "History Book" !! Thanks, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ski6jones Posted July 17, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 17, 2018 Bigger ski and bouyant vest were my two first tjoughts and you have those.covered. 150 hp? I know first hand more hp will help. If you could figure the getup out behind a boat with more grunt you could probably then transition to your boat with better success. My 0.02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller pregom Posted July 17, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 17, 2018 Which start are you more comfortable with? Putting your back foot in the RTP or dragging your right leg? For me, dragging the back leg never worked. I am LFF and use RTP. I get in a ball, press my left toes down (like on a gas pedal) and after the boat starts pulling, I wait patiently for the ski to plane over the water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller DaveD Posted July 17, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 17, 2018 150hp outboard or I/O? big difference. The outboard should have no problem getting you up. The I/O will struggle and make it harder on you with your back foot in. I like @ski6jones recommendation to find a stronger boat to learn. Make sure your driver has some experience pulling up skiers too. They may be causing some of your problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitecaps Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Deep V rope handle can make it happen for you. Seems to be the ticket to teach deep water slalom starts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Andre Posted July 17, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 17, 2018 If outboard,150 is plenty with a big 69'' Butterknife. I'm a rtp guy and prefer both feet in.If you choose both feet in,stay small with knees to your chest and arms extends and...wait.Don't get up until after 3 seconds and you'll be planing in no time! That 69 should really help! My ski finish in 16.95 but my ass is out of tolerance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ski_Dad Posted July 17, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 17, 2018 i agree about the deep v handle - huge help for learning. Masterline makes a 15" version that will fit that ski well. You might be able to get one sent to you by this weekend. https://www.masterlineusa.com/collections/handles/products/ezy-up-handle?variant=4279006625820 I know it's a preference but I feel more balanced getting up with both feet in. my last boat was a 19' with 125 HP outboard and no issues getting up - so 150 should be easy enough. You got this !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Chef23 Posted July 17, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 17, 2018 The 69” Butterknife at your current weight is plenty of ski. I got up on a 67” Katana today with no problem and I weigh 205. It was behind a Prostar so there was plenty of juice but I am sure they were only using a fraction. I find it much easier to drag my free leg. Keep your knee into your your chest and your back leg trailing behind. Make sure the ski is on an angle not straight up and down plowing the water. When you are up on the water don’t look down for the rear toe just feel for it. If you have to just put your foot down on top of the RTP until you get stable. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller hemlock Posted July 17, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 17, 2018 What's worked for me, is staying in a "ball" as others haven mentioned. Knee tucked tight to chest. Arms straight always. And stay in that ball forever. Both feet in give you better water dynamics and you can cut through it better. One leg out gives you better balance. I prefer both feet in. And maybe you could practice it? Next time you are up on one and having fun skiing, have the driver at the end of your set just slow down the boat back to idle. Get in a ball and hang on as long as you can, of course without stressing yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller UWSkier Posted July 17, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 17, 2018 I've always felt dragging a leg gave me an easier start as the second leg is kindof like a second planing surface that also keeps you going straight. It will require a bit more front leg strength though. Can you do a one legged squat on your front leg on dry land? If not, maybe both feet in is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Chef23 Posted July 17, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 17, 2018 @UWSkier if you mean a pistol squat I can’t come close to doing a pistol but I get out of the water no problem with one leg. I would say if you can do a deep lunge with no problem or a step up on to a 20” Bos without pushing off the foot in the floor you should have enough strength to do a deep water start with one leg in. One foot vs two is definitely a bit of a religious conversation. I am a 1 foot guy and always have been. Peo0le that have always been 2 footers will frequently say that is easier. I would say try both one will seem easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Dano Posted July 17, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 17, 2018 like @whitecaps said get yourself a deep V handle. Used one to teach my nephew and my wife this year. Both were able to get up first try. My wife has since tried using a regular handle and found it much more difficult. So there's the science behind my statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller JAS Posted July 17, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 17, 2018 ' Have mental picture of what your trying to accomplish. Both you and driver watch this video. A team effort https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Jager%20Engineering&qft=+filterui:userpage-sharkgts&FORM=VQCHNL 150 outboard plenty with right prop Letting boat pull you up is important. This does not mean to let it bend you forward. Get in start position and tense all core muscles that you've been working on. Hold handle so it draws a line to your stomach. Mine often 6 inches under water Stay strong with core!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BRY Posted July 17, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 17, 2018 @DaveinPa Tip 1: For LFF have rope to the right of ski Tip 2: Make sure the tip of ski is just out of the water, couple inches. Never let it sink below the surface throughout the start. More is not better though, just a couple inches out. Tip 3: Keep ski flat as possible. So as said before have ski as up under your butt as you can, with tip out of water. Tip 4: If two feet in keep back knee tucked in behind front knee, legs together. This is critical and very easy. If legs come apart drag goes way up and you don't get up. Tip 5: Have outboard trimmed in as far as possible until your up. Also have riders forward. Depending on boat 150 is not as much as you think for beginner. The less it drags you the better. Tip 6: Wait for boat to pull you up. You don't get up, it pulls you up. If you stand up too soon you just sink the ski (see Tip 2). I can get up either way. At 6-1 220 I used to get up behind a 17 ft Glasstron with a 60HP outboard. That thing drug me forever to get me up. I find two feet in technically easier but takes more effort/strength. One foot out is less drag but more skill required, particularly once up for a beginner. Tip 7, 8, 9, and 10. Don't quit! It seems impossible but then it happens and it's easy. Once you do it a couple times you will have it, like riding a bike but easier. You've got a good 10-20 years skiing in you yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller sunvalleylaw Posted July 17, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 17, 2018 I like @BRY 's advice. I was an old out board skier too, and ended up behind an old Glastron (new at the time) for a long time. I was one leg out, LFF. But, my daughter just learned on a wider ski, using the deep vee handle. Once she got it a time or two, she was fine with the regular handle. So I think you should consider the deep v handle if you can find one. If not, go with what is comfortable to you with regard to rear foot in or out, and follow the post directly above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller liquid d Posted July 17, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 17, 2018 Stretch and warm up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RINLE Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 The other variables to consider are the prop and if the boat has tabs of some sort. $100 on a lower pitch 4 blade prop will make a huge difference if the bow tends to raise and the boat takes a while to plane. Those old glastrons were likeky pitched for all around performance and the 2 strokes made more low end torque. Tell us more about the boat and prop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Glydon Posted July 17, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 17, 2018 Only thing I think NOT mentioned is perhaps allowing the boat to give you a bit of a "glide " before signaling driver to go. FWIW my Dad turned 70 this year and last year was diagnosed with the big C ... he wants to ski this summer but we are unable to find him an "oversize" shaped slalom so he will likely use a drop ski sadly. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Jetsetr Posted July 17, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 17, 2018 Have a 69 Butterknife as well a great ski, but recently upgraded. I prefer RFF both feet in. Let the boat do the work. Maybe some people or ballast in the FRONT of the boat to help it plane out faster. No shame in dropping if need be...if you come up on two you can have a much “softer” pullout that will be much easier on you...we all must remember to have FUN at this sport at ALL levels... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveinPa Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 @BRY @JAS @ hemlock @DaveD And to everyone else that responded, THANKS; Seriously! So I think I have a deep v handle already, it is a 150 2 stroke Ocean Pro on 20 ft. 4 Winns, today a 4 bladed stainless Powequest prop arrived so that will get bolted on too. Lots of great tips and advice, never thought about the slow down and into a ball theory. Yup I think 2 feet in first time or two and also have read about boat driver "easing into it" so we shall try that too. The square inches of surface on the Butterknife are what I am hoping is going to make the difference. Thanks again everyone and I will let you all know what happens. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller m_pags Posted July 17, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 17, 2018 @DaveinPa Stay Relaxed and have Fun!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted July 17, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 17, 2018 Surface will make a huge difference but make sure not to have it too vertical in the water. Alot of people will get jammed by pushing their back foot and that stands the ski upright and pushes the tip out of the water. Instead you want to keep the tail under you so that the ski is angled in the water. I think this is where a lot of the one footers became so insistent on it being better is that if you jam on your back leg you'll stand the ski vertical in the water which means you'll get crushed and dragged into the water. If you don't have a back foot in the ski will always angle in the water as the tail of the ski is a long lever arm. I'm a two footer - so I'll always suggest both in, I don't however like the idea of a ball - you don't want to hunch your spine, you do want to bend your knees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller gsm_peter Posted July 17, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 17, 2018 Warm up. At least twice. :) Have fun. Don not give up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Chef23 Posted July 18, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 18, 2018 The key is to have the driver progressively bring the power up. I think about rolling up out of the water. We were talking about this on the lake this morning out of the three of us I am the only one who gets up with one foot in. I am the biggest of the three at 200 lbs and @rayn said he uses the same or less throttle to get me out of the water as he does his son who weighs no more than 160. Dont get discouraged you are plenty strong to do this. It is about technique from both you and the driver. Last summer I was recovering from a lengthy illness and could barely walk up the stairs and certainly couldn’t do a pull up and I got up on a slalom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Jetsetr Posted July 18, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 18, 2018 Spot on @Chef23 At your weight you can have a super soft pull on two... Friend of mine who has some back issues comes up on two and drops...it’s amazing how slow/gentle he can be pulled up... Think if you work on coming up on a single you might hit a bit of a wall, then it will all come together and it will become second nature...try a single a few times each session, but would suggest in the mean time come up on two, drop and have fun... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Ski_Dad Posted July 18, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 18, 2018 100% agree with @Chef23 about the rolling of the throttle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveinPa Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 @Jetsetr: So how quickly does your friend drop his ski? I have been wondering if I can drop one BEFORE I even get up to speed; like when I am just barely planed off maybe? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller KRoundy Posted July 18, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 18, 2018 Agreed on the easy up. Roll that throttle forward every so slowly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller KRoundy Posted July 18, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 18, 2018 Also - do you have a good set of gloves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveinPa Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 @KRoundy Yes got gloves, am starting to feel like I'm gonna do this thanks to all the advice!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Obrienslalom Posted July 19, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 19, 2018 I don't know the answer, but I will share that my wife pulled her hamstring trying to get up on a slalom the first time last year. This year she put her rear foot in and feels that's the answer for her. That along with a slightly more aggressive idle drag before throwing it in the hole worked great for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Chef23 Posted July 19, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 19, 2018 @DaveinPa you can drop before you are up to speed as soon as you are stable on the skis you can drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GregHind Posted July 19, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 19, 2018 If you try one leg start, have the driver be GENTLE on the throttle. Make sure they are a skilled driver than can get off the throttle smoothly and quickly. 20mph or so should be fast enough until you get your back foot in. Slower is much more stable. Then speed up once your foot is in If your boat lifts the nose up on takeoff then I suggest you skip the one legged start or use an inboard Physically a one leg start is a lot easier but technically it is much harder for most people to learn and it makes a big difference how it is driven. You need acceleration but slower is better. Also your 150hp engine has a low gear ratio, lots of torque and can be way to strong for you if you use full throttle. I suggest getting up on doubles and slowing the boat speed down to the slowest you can comfortably lift a ski. Then drop in the water. Loosen the binding. Get back up at your slow speed drop the ski, put your back foot in and speed up. Enjoy your ski! If that doesn’t work then I suggest a deep start two feet in Most older people drop a ski and keep skiing by avoiding deep starts. I know a guy in his 70’s that can’t do deep starts any more so he does a dock start instead. Might as well learn how to drop a ski now and enjoy skiing into your 80’s! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Jetsetr Posted July 20, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 20, 2018 @DaveinPa ...he drops as soon as he’s up, waaaay below normal ski speed (for him I use 28-30). I did the same thing this spring when the water was 43 and was having issues getting up single. We use an old wood Dick Pope Cypress Gardens combo ski as our dropper. Don’t need a matching drop ski, just something to get ya up and get rid of...I put a small (10x10) fluorescent orange flag on it just in front of the binding so it really shows up on the lake. Ski stays upright about 80-90% of the time if ya step out gently...makes it super easy to find and other boaters can see it easily as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveinPa Posted July 20, 2018 Author Share Posted July 20, 2018 @Jetsetr...Ah Ha, thought that might be a possibility. I have 5 wood cypress garden Dick Popes with the rubber bindings, so if I don't get up with two feet in I will use a very "loose" Dick Pope and step out of it soon ( I hope!) Thanks a lot, tomorrow is the day, hoping for it all to come together. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller robmollysilverlake Posted July 20, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 20, 2018 Good luck tomorrow!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller tjs1295 Posted July 20, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 20, 2018 My friend can only drop a ski, and he does it before he's even completely out of the water. No where near being planned off. It usually happens so soon that I don't even see him drop because the water is still spraying everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveinPa Posted July 21, 2018 Author Share Posted July 21, 2018 @tjs gotcha, great advice from everyone! Dave B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller GregHind Posted July 21, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 21, 2018 @DaveinPa the suspense! how did you go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveinPa Posted July 21, 2018 Author Share Posted July 21, 2018 @ GregHind and to all that helped with advice: success sort of..... The good: 4 blade prop is unbelievable, planed off in half the time and no more "full throttled" when it is time to go, better wake and better bite in the turns etc. good choice. Warmed up on two skis, only boat there, then attempted deep water starts with both feet in. !st time handle popped, second and third time got pulled over the front no matter how hard I concentrate on keeping a shallow angle. Have both legs bent to my butt as hard/far as I can but not happening. Cannot figure this out. So get a Dick Pope on and get up on two, piece of cake, get speed backed down some and drop the already loose Dick Pope slowly, and then "it starts" (has happened before) as I search for the RTP with my right foot the ski starts to "snake" left and right, I cannot seem to control that and wind up putting my rear foot on top of the RTP to keep from falling, went maybe 1200 feet and let go of the rope. I then did another 2 ski start and tried "dumping" the xtra ski fairly early and again cannot get into the RTP without the ski snaking on me and I fell. Was thinking about a one leg out start but I was pretty shot and wanted my daughter to ski before weather went downhill. So............plenty of power, good 69 inch ski, Deep V handle harness, just can't put it all together. Wish I knew why the ski starts to Snake or S turn on me when I drop one. Will give it another shot in a week or so. My thanks to everyone who commented, really helped me mentally! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller UWSkier Posted July 21, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 21, 2018 If you're riding along on two and you lift your "back" leg, will your other leg start to "s" turn on you or can you ride indefinitely with one ski in the air? Usually the "s" turns are from someone flailing their back leg around looking for the ski. What I have found helps is to have a skier practice finding the back of their front leg with their big toe and trace it down the calf onto the ski. That keeps the flailing to a minimum and gives you that reference of where your front leg is. Standing with your feet completely inline is a very unnatural stance so you have to really work to tell yourself to put your back foot directly behind the front. Try it on dry land a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Jordan Posted July 22, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 22, 2018 If you are being pulled over the front on your deep water start...begin with more ski out of the water. Have your toes just below the surface. As the power comes on you will be pulled fwd and your ski will roll on top of the water. Much less work to hold on to the handle this way. The rest remains the same...knees to chest, arms straight, back foot up under your butt. Watch Jason mcclintock get up at about 39 seconds in this video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Chef23 Posted July 22, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 22, 2018 When first learning don’t worry about getting your foot in the rear toe just put it on top. Until you can comfortably ride a single it is going to be difficult to get up on one. When my kids were little I put non-skid on top of the ski without the rear toe and just had them put their foot down until they got comfortable riding the ski then moved to getting the back foot in. You will get there keep at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveinPa Posted July 22, 2018 Author Share Posted July 22, 2018 @Jordan Interesting video, petty much what I did NOT do! So correct me if I am wrong; he has both feet in the boots or RTP, legs are bent but his knees are Next to each other ( i tried to get rear knee behind the front maybe contributing to the wobble) and he is sitting back as opposed to leaning forward and comes out EFFORTLESSLY!! I'm going to watch this a few dozen times, thanks!! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RINLE Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 I am wondering about putting the other foot up front since your having such an unbalanced ride after dropping the ski. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Jetsetr Posted July 22, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 22, 2018 On a single deep water start with both feet in-Knees together cuts drag...lean back, let the boat do the work...if you keep your CG (center of gravity) aft that will help keep you from being pulled over the front. If you come out of the water like you’re sitting in a chair you pretty much have it. Stand up as the boat/ski speed comes up...sometimes the urge to stand up too early results in an unscheduled swim... Two hand over the top grip for two skis, I suggest baseball grip and handle vertical for coming up on one-I’m right handed so for me that’s the hand on top...RFF rope on left side of the ski-opposite for LFF. I could never do a leg drag start, but lots of people do them effortlessly... Have you determined your dominant foot/leg? I’ve always been RFF...switching might not hurt as suggested above, or do the push test... I’m sure these items have been already covered... I’m not so sure that having more ski out of the water will help...but I could be totally wrong... There are some really good videos on deep water starts on U tube... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveinPa Posted July 22, 2018 Author Share Posted July 22, 2018 @Jetsetr Yeah definitely was getting pulled over the front. Have always been LFF & don't think I can change it now. Baseball grip is a point because after I am up I always go to that anyway, right hand dominant like you, and way more "pulling strength" with my hands that way. CG aft, all good points, thanks, another day is coming soon!! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted July 22, 2018 Baller Share Posted July 22, 2018 Remember you have hips and back you don't want to ball your low back you do want to bend your hips and knees. That will put you like in that video. As it goes you want to ride the ski up so don't let your shoulder and hands go to your feet start to push your butt up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveinPa Posted July 22, 2018 Author Share Posted July 22, 2018 @BraceMaker @ Jetsetr @RINLE Yes all good points, I think I will try a couple times with right foot forward instead, and I definitely was not sitting back enough; so I'll find out if I have better control with RFF and if I do I will try and make it happen that way. Really would like to avoid dropping a ski but if it is the only way for this old guy I can live with it. Just want the old feeling & freedom of skiing on one! Thanks, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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