Guidance Needed

[dnewton]

Hey guys,

 

I’m on a 2017 66” vapor, running stock settings. I am running my -15 and -22 pass consistently, actually feeling more confident at -22. I get to -28 and just feel like I fall apart. I have been trying to ski early and wide at -15, and continue with that at -22. Also been working on pull out/gates a lot, but still struggle. If not timed correctly, I feel as if I can start to sink as I begin my turn into the gates or I become narrow. Usually feeling okay coming into 1 ball and getting to 2 okay, but I can’t get the ski to turn for me on my onside. I have tried messing with my fin a bit, but just kept feeling worse and worse on it. Obviously I’m not doing a ton correctly, but looking for what I could be focusing on to move through -28 more consistently. Any help is appreciated, thank you!

[eyepeeler]

How long have you been skiing? Have you had any professional instruction?

[dnewton]

This is my second year skiing, and last year the big dawg Freddie winter got me through the course for the first time running 28mph. The guy that owns my club watches us ski a bit and helps, but other than that it’s been freeskiing trying to work on some stuff and move to the course to implement it. Reading this website trying understand how to make the ski work for us also.

[dnewton]

Here is my longer line passes. See what ya think and feel free to tell me everything I’m doing wrong. Just trying to wrap my head around this sport.

[eyepeeler]

Professional instruction is always the best but here are a few things that I see. Remember that good skiing is always a sequence of events so the more of the proper techniques that you have, the better you will ski. The first is the pullout, you are leaning back instead of away from the boat. If you keep consistently leaning back instead of away, it turns into an inefficient habit. The next is the turn in for the gates. Get a little wider setting up for the gates and then make an instant turn in for the gates, not a gradual one. The third thing is body position behind the boat. It needs to be stronger with your handle lower.

[dnewton]

@eyepeeler thank you! Some of the guys I have skied with a bit were instructing on a softer start headed to my gates. I am not saying they are correct. They kept saying "work behind the boat". Again, I'm not even sure what that exactly means.

Something that seems to be creating a lot of issues is as I create more space my timing is way off and I feel like I am out there waiting on the ball. Like I am changing edges too early and have even made my turn too early and skied inside the ball a couple of times lately. Maybe not even casting the ski out and only skiing to the ball? I would honestly rather run -22 for my opener than -15 because I feel "stronger"?? and more consistent? I don't know, I am frustrated because I am not even familiar enough with what I should feel like on a ski to be able to verbally express what I am experiencing. Last year I was just scraping everything together, and now I am beginning to feel the ski work for me. Only problem is I am not sure what I am doing differently to create that. Thank You.

[Texas6]

Great skiing man, and that’s a ton of progress in a really short timeframe by the way. I agree you should be higher on the boat in your pullout and glide, but also balanced in the center of the ski and not on the back during the glide. If you are sinking in before you turn, you simply need to adjust your timing such that you can initiate your turn in toward the gates roughly as your speed matches that of the boat, without slack, and without a completely loaded rope. Once you get that right I would consider working on your arm position as you go through the wakes and begin your transition into the turn. Think about keeping your elbows pinned against your vest a bit longer, and not allowing the boat to pull your arms up and away from your body before it’s time to release and turn

[dnewton]

@Texas6 Thank you for the feedback, seems to make sense. I have been adjusting my pullout all year. I pullout, think to myself I better stand tall so I can let the boat take the slack and I won't be late. What usually happens is, I get sucked in because I stood up too early and then I'm obviously narrow right off the get go.

[Texas6]

Yep, that's not uncommon, and it's very simply about your timing. When you think about getting tall in your glide, I like to think about getting up on my front foot and getting tall, which centers me over the top of the ski. You want to initiate that turn in from your glide optimally at your highest point in the pull-out, with the speed approximately that of the boat, without a loaded line, but without slack. The turn in can be progressive and doesnt need to happen all at once....Your ski builds angle best when the line isn't loaded, and you moderate speed by progressively building angle and not taking off like a rocket ship too early....If you load hard and take it all at once from your highest point, you will find yourself fast at one ball. Progressive. That timing is easier said that done, but it's what I strive for at most any length 28 and beyond.

[skiboyny]

Get more weight on your front foot at the glide and the turn in. When you extend to turn let the ski swing out a bit more before you reel in the handle. Be more patient there. Those two things will give you a much earlier line.

[dnewton]

@Texas6 and @skiboyny sweet stuff. I will continue working on this and see what I can come up with. Thank You!

[Tbone71857]

@dnewton, you're doing amazingly well for just two years. I appreciate your video as I'm "re-learning" the sport after 30 years of doing it incorrectly and as a "hobby". Thank you for sharing your success and motivation for a few of us "novices" on the water!

[Killer]

that's some very good skiing, especially in just 2 years. Your 28 actually looks a bit better... you have good balance and some fundamental body position that is tough to teach. I like how tall you stand and how relaxed you are (you don't appear to be pulling TOO much). You generate a good amount of angle and speed out of the turn because you are balanced coming into and through the turn, patient in waiting for the ski to come back under the rope before grabbing the handle and leaning.

 

Your gate is narrow and inconsistent - @Texas6 has you on track there. With a wider gate you will run 28 easy as is. Are there pregates at your site? Would be worth investigating for consistency on pullout.

 

the biggest thing I see holding you back from 32 and even 35 off and beyond is with respect to your body position, and body position is fundamental in going any further - your shoulders are definitively leading in your cut. You want your hips to be leading with your body STACKED on top of itself. hips over feet, shoulders over hips. Head over shoulders. Lead your cut with your hips, keeping your elbows on your vest and balanced over your feet.

 

you have some good videos to share - I suggest getting a pro to view them and provide their professional advice.

 

I think you have the ability to be a very good shortline skier with some good coaching and time on the water, in short order.

[dnewton]

@Killer thank you!! Our course does have pregates, and I try to use them to the best of my ability. -15, I pullout right before the boat hits them. -22, I try to pullout as the windshield passes them. -28, I pullout as the motor or rear seat section gets through them. Honestly I feel most consistent on my -28 pullout/gates. Most evenings I run -15 and -22 first attempt and then spend the remainder of 2-3 sets messing around -28 and on my good nights I get to make some attempts at -32.

Yes, last night was the first time this season we had gotten some good video(my brother is my ski partner). We spent a fair amount of time discussing screenshots we had taken and comparing them to screenshots of the videos in the “edge change” thread. We have some work to do, but having a blast.

[gregy]

I usually pull out when the boats about a boat length from the green guides and adjust that back or forward for head or tail wind. I use a progressive pullout so I'm not hitting hard immediately and use a fast count of 4 that's probably in the ballpark of 3 seconds. Counting helps my consistency on gates. Like others have said stay balance on the pullout. You're rolling back on your rear leg so that when you come up to glide your on the rear. There are some top skiers that do a similar pull out but seems harder to master.

[Fam-man]

@dnewton in your first post you mention "can't get the ski to turn offside". Keep in mind I'm at the same stage as you are, learning 28 off. I see similar things in your video as I see in video of myself and what I feel is that if I'm on the back of the ski it doesn't turn offside. I see your hips going over the back foot during your gate glide & turn in and they stay there the entire pass.

There's many ways to say it and lots of discussion on this forum about getting your hips up and really focusing on that part of your skiing will help throughout the course.

Straighter legs

Proud chest

Shoulders back

Push hips to next ball

etc

Find a thought that works for you and gets feet, hips, shoulders lined up throughout the course. When your weight is balanced between your feet the water should be breaking at the ball of your front foot or even farther ahead when in the glide.

When I'm not stacked behind the boat I think about re-stacking from the wakes to the ball just like in the gate glide. Re-balancing weight on both feet as you head into the ball will get your center of mass forward in a strong position for the turn and load after the turn.

 

Establish stack during glide and wakes to ball

Keep stacked behind the boat.

 

You're looking really good especially how well you finish the turn and set angle before loading on the rope. Great Skiing!

[dnewton]

How do you all focus on your counter? Coming around 2 ball do you look for 4 or exaggerate even more? Mine is getting better, but still rather closed off compared to the big dawgs.

[Texas6]

I would pick the one or two biggest inhibitors to progress and pound them into muscle memory for a bit. The pullout, glide, and gate is something we all work to perfect at every pass, so I view it as a separate item. For you right now it’s arms and hips in my opinion. Countering is a fine tune detail. Reach toward the pylon and you counter naturally

[Justin_C]

Your upper body looks very stiff on your 2-4-6 side. Your 1-3-5 looks good but it's almost like you're not keeping your head up and looking down course on your off side. Could be why you feel as though you can't get the ski to turn on your off side.

[wart]

@dnewton you are way ahead of the learning curve with your progress in just two years.

 

@killer and Fam man have given you some key advice. Especially with respect to body position.

 

So, how do you work on body position? Here are some ideas.

 

1 Improving your stance behind the boat is more important than anything else. So, don’t worry about the gates... you’ll have your whole ski career to figure out the gates... and that’s about how long it will take. Therefore, continue to use your pullout keys, then once you’re out there turn for 1-ball when everything feels right. Don’t worry about going through the gates. Most important, right now, is to get as many repeats of good body position as possible. Worrying about the gates can ruin working on body position for the next six pulls. Heck, I would even skip a turn ball from time to time, just to make sure I could get into a perfect pull position. In other words, it not always about chasing buoys.

 

2 since you are leaning back sometimes, since you have most of your weight your back foot sometimes... from the moment you get up on the water, 95% of your weight goes on your front foot. Now once in the course, you won’t be able to maintain 95%, but trying to will help get you more evenly balanced on both feet. Now, the warning that goes with this is be aware of your balance... we don’t want you to go flying out the front.

 

3 Don’t worry about turns right now. Just reach, turn, and get into your stacked position.

 

4 I hear you about liking -28 more than -22 and -15. But at the longer rope lengths you have more time in each wake crossing to work on position. One sure way to force yourself to stack better is to ski -15 and -22 12 to 8 feet outside the turn balls. That is don’t ski to the ball, ski out and around the ball. The only way to do this is to improve your position crossing the wake.

 

5 The ski thought... hips up to the handle seems to work well when trying to learn the stacked position.

 

Notice the theme? If you develop and ingrain your stacked position now, you will go along way up the line. I’ve watched a few skiers over years get stuck at -32 and -35 because they never built the most important building block of skiing... that is their position directly behind the boat.

 

 

[dnewton]

@wart thanks!! Headed to the course tomorrow. Excited to think through all this info and spend some time working on this.

[PurdueSkier]

@dnewton is that boondocks lake in Indiana? Haven't skied there in a few years but really looks like it.

[dnewton]

@PurdueSkier yes sir it is.

[ecno]

This is the best thread I think I've read on here.... I'm having the same issues and can't wait to try and apply this... Awesome

[dnewton]

I skied this morning. Didn’t set any records, but spent a lot more time at -15 and -22 trying to ski wide and early in the correct position. I’m sure it wasn’t perfect, but was able to get some things accomplished. Every time I got into -28, I made a solid attempt. Very consistent scoring all morning.

[dnewton]

 

Making some headway, and feeling good about being able to work on my technique.

[dg1845]

@dnewton amazing skier at an amazing ski site behind the coolest yellow boat i've ever seen.

[ISP6ball]

@dg1845 your boat? :)

[Chef23]

@dnewton fixing your gates will go a long way toward helping you run that pass. You need to get much higher up on the boat. I am fine with your start point but I would like to see much more intensity on the pull out. You want to be moving at about the same speed as the boat when you turn in not slower and drifting in. Generate more speed and width on the pull out until you are going too fast at the turn in. Then you can adjust. I very, very rarely see anyone I ski with have too much width and speed at the turn in it is always too narrow and too slow.

 

You have made a lot of great progress in a short time. Keep it up.

[dg1845]

@ISP6ball no not mine! I do ski behind it from time to time though.

[klindy]

@dnewton I'm not a big fan of adjusting your pullout on each line length. Since you are waiting longer as the rope get's shorter, I suspect you are pulling out with less intensity each time so you don't get "too far down course" before the gates. As the rope shortens, you'll be able to get wider and further up on the boat with the same aggressive pullout from the same location. Besides, it's easy to commit the pullout to muscle memory if it's the same every pass every line length.

 

I'd focus on picking the spot you use for 22 off (seems to be a pretty comfortable pass for you currently) and concentrate on making the pullout the same every time. I'll bet at 28 and 32 you end up starting from a wider position. If you miss the gate initially don't sweat it. Get some consistency and adjust the whole package up or down course to hit the gate.

[ScarletArrow]

Looks my old 2011, traded it in to Silver Spray Sports. IMO you are way, way too narrow on your pullout for the gates. Your rope is barely past the grey seadek when it should be closer to the windshield.

[Chef23]

I agree with what @klindy says about changing pullout spots. I pull out just before the nose of the boat hits the right boat guide from 22 off to 35 off. I can’t talk amp out shorter because I am not that good. I can see changing spots for different speeds but not line lengths.

[dnewton]

Small update. I have bumped up to 36mph and having some solid luck at -22 and have even ran some -28s. Was it a silly decision to bump up to 36 this early? Should I get deeper in the line at 34mph. I do really enjoy skiing at 36 more. The boat is always there for me to use.

[Than_Bogan]

If you can run -28, I see no reason to delay 36 mph. If interested in tournaments, you might want to keep 34/-22 as an opener.

[dnewton]

@Than_Bogan yes. I’m trying to get my 34/22 to be my opener. To keep my buoy count up. I start at 34/15 for now. The reason I switched to 36 was for tournament scores I feel as I have a much better chance of running 36/22 vs. 34/28, plus i seem to always get 4-6 balls at 36/28.

[dnewton]

Quick question for everyone. I am currently riding a 17' lithium vapor, and totally love the ski. I have considered getting a 18' or 19' but don't know if I want to save my pennies up for the pro build, or is the lithium going to be good enough? I am surviving with my ski just fine, but was wondering if there is a little being left on the water? I do not know skies well enough to know what the different cores offer. Thanks.

[skiep]

This is what i see/hear that is going on.

Start your pullout one full boat before the greens. Yes full boat!!

32 off you should be at the back of the rear speaker in the boat on your glide to gates ( have someone look for you).

Be stronger with your legs behind the boat ( try not to absorb with legs) Hope this helps great sking! Keith

[ktm300]

You have really good athletic ability. In seeking advice, be careful. Even amongst prof. coaches there are many diff. opinions on how to do things. Most particularly the gate. You will chase your tail forever if you do not pick some things that seem, from your athletic perspective, to work for you. If you have a chance to get some prof coaching in person or video, see if you can get them to help you devise and craft YOUR plan for the gates. After you do that, stick with it and perfect and make it feel natural, unrushed and confident. Thereafter, people will continually try to change it; ignore them. This is not to say that you should become close minded but, recognize early on that this is a very individual sport. One example: Very successful skier A coaches everyone to pull out and turn in one boat length before the greens/gate. Very successful skier B advocates going down the lake before turning in until you start to panic and then go some more. Set up a zero buoy and don't turn in until past that. You cannot reconcile these approaches; you have to choose something. I could go on.... straight legs/bent legs etc. Watch Terry Winter, Robert Pigozzi and Jeff Rodgers on youtube. Read all the posts about skiing with your legs straight and compare that to the Winter video. Try to ski one pass with your legs as straight as Rodgers. You get the point.

[dnewton]

I apologize as I must of worded my question incorrectly. It’s a different question than the original post because I didn’t want to start a thread for a simple little question. I was looking for the differences of the lithium and pro build series. Am I missing out riding a lithium?

 

I am doing everything possible to continue riding my ski on stock settings. I am still climbing on the buoy count and don’t want to fight fine tuning until I feel like I have truly peaked at these settings.

 

I have done some professional at the boarding school and terry winter. The video with terry was super awesome.

[Chef23]

@dnewton while there would be no downside to going to a ProBuild (and I love trying new stuff) I certainly don't think being on a Lithium Vapor is holding you back.

 

You are making awesome progress. I don't see any issue with working on 36 mph. I also think there is value in mixing in running 34 mph 32 off and trying 35 off if you run 32 off. 32 off at 34 mph highlighted some issues that need to be fixed that you can likely ski through at 28 off at 36 mph.

 

I wish my skiing progressed nearly as fast as yours has.

[dnewton]

I appreciate your feedback @Chef23, thanks!

[dnewton]

I just got a new to me 2018 vapor pro build and wow this thing is sweet. All the radar products have been so good to me, but this one is my favorite so far. I ran 36/28 once last year and have been fighting all year to get 3 or 4. I rode this ski for the first time last night and second set I was able to run it and even 2 at -32.