2007/2009 Nautiques "suddenly" seem more challenging?

[Than_Bogan]

My ski partner and I both have Nautiques 196s from about the same time period. They both have ZO, probably Rev Q. We've skied on them for years.

 

Suddenly this year, we are finding that skiing on the @rayn newish Mastercraft seems noticeably easier. The difference seems especially striking at -38, which has seemed kind of impossible for both of us this year on both of our boats, but when we get on that boat (or other boats at other sites), we can at least get an OK start and feel like there's a chance.

 

Way back when we got these boats, I thought they were more difficult than previous boats, but that seemed to be true of all ZO boats, and I never recall thinking my '07 was any harder than any other ZO boat. Until this year.

 

And while we're not getting any younger, the performances on the other boats are the ones that seem "normal," so it's as if our boats have suddenly gotten more difficult.

 

Has anyone experienced anything like this? I know this is a super-vague post, but we're really scratching our heads, so it seemed like time to open it up for brainstorming.

 

Might an older boat interact with ZO in some weird way? Have the hulls and/or software changed so much in the last decade that new ZO boats are much easier, which can partially mask our declining skills? :) How different would a single-puck with Rev S be?

 

Other thoughts?

[dave2ball]

I’ve skied all 4 boats. 200 17 MC new Nautique and the 196. The only thing I have noticed is that the MC has a softer pull with the 5.7.

Could it be that after skiing behind the others and they feel easier you are not upping the intensity necessary to get threw 38.

[ski6jones]

Friend of mine just upgraded his '16(?) BU to the new single puck and latest available ZO rev for his application. He claims it's a noticable improvement to the feel of the boat.

[PatM]

@Than_Bogan Mike reached out to me about the same issue and asked about upgrading the version of ZO. I told him I believe you are at the most current version without going to a single puck. I believe this to be true but others here may have a different take on it.

[The_MS]

I can’t believe that ZO has a different feel from boat to boat. It is such a quality product that it is hard to believe the pull would be inconsistent.

[markn]

The only comparison I can make is between my 2004 196 with Rev. R and three different 2017 Nautique 200's with 6.2 liter power plants which are all single puck versions, each at different sites. There can be several other variables such as driver, ski site, age/accuracy of ski ropes, lake depth, accuracy of course (surveyed vs. floating) all of which come into play.

I run A2+ on my 196 to duplicate the feel of the 200's on A2. If anything, some 200's feel just slightly firmer, but I run the same buoy counts (typically 2 or 3 @39 34 mph) behind my 196 and the 200's. The difference in firmness is more than likely the difference in drivers. MWN

[LeonL]

@MS har har! LMAO. @Than_Bogan when you turn the ignition on and ZO boots up the rev sequence is displayed momentarily. Also if you have the + option available you have rev R, if not most likely rev Q. Could still be P, but unlikely. That's pretty old. Can't fathom your situation though. I ski alternately with a 196 5.7 Rev R and a 200 5.3 Rev R and see only negligible difference. No buoy count difference anyway.

[lkb]

After skiing behind a 2009 196 with dual puck and most current revision for 8 seasons I sold it and got a 2017 Carbon Pro. The Carbon Pro is a much friendlier pull. I was told by somebody who's been around the industry a long time that upgrading the 196 to single puck would've made it somewhat more friendly like what I feel behind the CP.

[DanE]

@Than_Bogan If you haven't already, try remapping ZO.

[Orlando76]

funny this was posted. I actually got on BOS for the first time in MONTHS to research a similar topic. I gave up waterskiing this year, cold turkey. I’ve come to the conclusion that an ‘07 196 dual puck that I Ski most regularly is 10x harder than the few late model MC’s I’ve skied and 15x harder than LaPoints CP which I feel skis pretty similar to my PP SN. I’ve heard earlier versions of ZO with heavier skiers was too quick and too hard which is how I feel behind the 07 196, I weigh 185. Also heard from respectable top skiers that have earned their merit badges in ski and boat development that the 196 doesn’t carry speed as well the competition causing it to give a pull that feels harder. Saying the hull is essentially too small and nimble. I’m not trying to stir a hornets nest as I’m a Nautique and CP fan.

[bigskieridaho]

I PB’d behind the new MC and then didn’t do as great behind my dual puck Malibu. Could have been consecutive days tho. Also, @twhisper just bought an 08 or 09 196 so that has to say something for those boats.

[JackQ]

If your boat and speed control are operating properly I don’t think you should be feeling a difference.

 

I ski on a 196 in practice, and feel no significant difference between it and Malibu, MasterCraft, CarbonPro, CC200s in tournaments. The 2019 Correct Craft, well that is a horse of a different color.

 

I have dual pucks but did not feel any difference from single puck.

[buoyboy1]

What will remapping do in theory?

[Jody_Seal]

I have a 09 196. 6.0, rev s and run a OJ prop. This boat is a beast!!! Slalom is a point and shoot propisition, ride the line and it is a sweet pull, try and work it like a 5.7 boat you will get your ass kicked..

[rayn]

@Than_Bogan @MikeT you definitely need to remap the labs course. It was moved 55m so that might contribute to the issues out there. The backwash doesn't help in the cove no matter what boat we are running.

[DanE]

@rayn Remapping needs to be done every once in a while regardless of the course being moved or not. At least with a dual puck ZO, can't speak for the single puck as I have no experience with it.

[DW]

Remapping made a difference on the course I ski. It was apparent the 'map' had shifted relative to the course (beeps were off), after mapping the speed seems more consistent for gates and feels better. It would be interesting to have a speed trace over a course map to actually see the data to get a better understanding rather than the seat of the 'neoprene shorts' feel.

[thager]

Remap especially if you have a floating course. They do move.

[Than_Bogan]

Will do on the remap. Great thought.

 

Meanwhile, I realized I forgot to mention something that could be important: Both of our boats have had a knocking issue at times in the last couple of seasons. Mike's is mostly fixed; mine really just appeared this season and seems to be getting worse. If I run the boat at about 40 mph for even a short time, it tends to be fine for about 1.5 days, but then it comes back after sitting.

 

If the engine itself isn't quite right, even without any noticeable symptoms when actually in the course, perhaps it can have a significant effect on the feel?

[eleeski]

Absolutely!

 

Props, especially if they are dinged or repitched will change the feel as well as the engine.

 

These will be subtle differences but noticeable.

 

Of course, it might be a serious case of boat new boat desire. Subconsciously you are coming up with ways to justify that new boat.

 

Eric

[Jordan]

Knocking? Maybe the engine management system is retarding the timing because of the knock?

If so the engine maybe down on power and way out of sync with the ZO speed management?

Maybe your boat needs higher octane or maybe a new knock sensor???

[jpwhit]

Carbon build up in the heads will raise the compression ratio and can lead to engine knocking. Assuming the knock sensor are working, the ECU will retard the timing to try and prevent the knocking. That will cause some degree of power loss.

[Than_Bogan]

So, I am FAR from a gearhead, and I may not even be using the word "knocking" correctly. Maybe closer to "misfire?" But anyhow, you can definitely hear that it's not running right after it's been sitting for a while.

[jpwhit]

Misfire will cause a very significant loss in power. Much more than the impact of the ECU retarding the engine timing due to knocking. Misfire issue would also have completely different causes. Such as bad plug wire, plug, etc....

 

[LeonL]

@Than_Bogan did you come up with the revision? Again I don't see much difference in '08 196 and '17 200. Admittedly I'm light (165) and ski 32 running mid 35off. Used to be able to run it. Ski partner 34 mid 38 doesn't seem to have a buoy count difference either.

[Orlando76]

The ‘07 I used to ski had a misfire for the first few minutes. Ever since new, I’d swear it was moisture building up overnight in dizzy cap.

[B_S]

I blame your gloves...

[Than_Bogan]

@B_S :) Yeah, I was kinda laughing at myself for whining about two things at the same time, but ironically getting much deeper into -38 behind @rayn's boat also drove home how limiting my grip is right now vs. optimal performance. It was less noticeable when I was completely out of the pass before getting to 2 ball...

 

I'm very optimistic that I'm on the road to fixing my glove whine. Fingers crossed a remap will fix this one!!

[bishop8950]

Engines loose power as they age or of course if they are not running correctly. The skier will notice the difference. I think we noticed this less behind PP than we do with ZO. If you think its time do at least the full tune up and see how it feels.

[Than_Bogan]

I have confirmed Rev Q.

 

I remapped last night. Will report back after skiing it. Fingers crossed!!

 

@DanE Just out of curiosity, can you say more about the need to remap even when the course hasn't moved?

[DanE]

@Than_Bogan I discovered it last summer with our clubs new to us 196. Skied in mirror conditions and my gate setup coupled with my 1 and 2 buoy felt like a head/tailwind situation, just felt weird the whole set. I know our course haven't moved but remapped anyway. Skied immediately after remapping and everything went back to normal.

Have no idea about the tech involved but have seen several members on this forum also experienced the same.

Remapping at least every month now.

[lazzn]

@DanE and @Than_Bogan if you haven't remapped/recalibrated a GPS location on any GPS platform for a while GPS drift will become a problem. I'm not sure how much drift correction ZO has built in...

[DanE]

@lazzn I knew someone would be educated on this, thank you.

[LeonL]

I'm still unsure how this affects ZO. My perception was that whether or not you are in a course, mapped or not, or even open water ZO will accurately run the selected speed. Now I do realize that there is a gate "up speed" and that may make a significant difference to some skiers. Is that the only caveat to mapped or not?

[DanE]

@LeonL Gate up speed suggests ZO needs to know the location of gates so yes, that is probably important.

[Chef23]

@Than_Bogan Some of it could be the ease of skiing behind the new Prostar and other newer boats you see in tournaments. Until Monday night I had only skied behind @rayn's boat this year. Monday night I skied behind an 07 Response LXI which I have previously skied behind a ton and I definitely noticed a difference in the wake. I was skiing 30 mph at 22 and 28 off not 34 mph deeper shortline where the wake is less but while it didn't prevent me from running a pass I definitely noticed the difference. I never felt a big difference between the wakes on the LXI we ski behind and the wakes on @Than_Bogan's boat.

 

I still think it is good to not have the wakes impact your skiing whether it is a 196, LXI, 197 or ProStar but the newer boats are definitely easier to ski behind.

[Than_Bogan]

And I assume they wouldn't have bothered to implement a special behavior at the gate unless skiers found it was important. The much more obvious thing to implement is just to maintain correct speed all the time regardless of location, so the fact that they created special gate behavior suggests to me it was deemed necessary.

[markchilcutt]

@Than_Bogan when was the last time you changed your spark plugs, wires cap and rotor?

[Than_Bogan]

I'm pretty sure I know what a spark plug is...

 

Fwiw, NECC Boats has done general maintenance on it every winter.

[TEL]

@Than_Bogan the missing is common to 07 and 08 343 engines, PCM set the timing wrong from the factory. There is an up date that was sent out in 09 to correct this problem my locale dealer did not know about. Timing was set a 0 should be plus 7 degrees. you can not set it with a timing light need a special reader. I was given the info by someone here on BOS i will try to find and post. Cured my 08 196 miss.

[TEL]

Link would not copy but here it is PCM Service Update PRODUCT INFORMATION UPDATE Updated CAM Retard Specifi cation for 2007-2008 Engines #SUP2009-01 February, 2009

This Product Information Update supercedes SUP2006-04, Information on Setting CAM Retard PCM 5.0L (Pro Ski) and 5.7L (Excalibur) engines, serial number range 470001 through 485993. When rotating the distributor on the affected engine, you are adjusting what is called “CAM Retard.” This parameter represents the position of the distributor rotor relative to the proper terminal in the distributor cap when the spark is delivered. The specifi cation indicated for this engine is 0-4 degrees. If the engine is set at 0 degrees, under certain precise RPM, temperature and load conditions, the engine can “crossfi re.” This means the spark jumps to the wrong terminal within the distributor. This can cause a slight backfi re or sputtering under this condition. To ensure this condition does not exist, CAM Retard should be set between 6-8 degrees on engines between serial numbers 470001-485993. This is a correction made to the tune-up specifi cations and should be checked and set to specifi cation during normal service intervals. In most cases, the problem does not exist. This is not an update that requires you to have the customer bring the boat in specifi cally for this update, it can be simply done during normal tune-up and/or commissioning procedures. A new specifi cation decal needs to be installed after the adjustment is made. Contact PCM in order to receive updated specifi cation decals, p/n R143170B-U, which indicates the correct CAM Retard specifi cation. NOTE: Engines built starting with serial number 485994 have been changed to a new specifi cation (15 +/- 2 Degrees) and circuit diagnostics added. These engines DO NOT need to be changed.

In order to properly set the CAM retard, the following scan tool MUST be used: PC Based Diagnostic Software: Diacom Diagnostic Software, Marine Edition, by Rinda Technologies, Inc. Available for purchase through PCM, P/N RT0086. 1. Connect the laptop to the engine’s data link connector. 2. Per the tool instructions, navigate the tool to view ECM data. 3. Find the engine parameter labeled “CAM Retard.”

4. Engine must be running in order to view the CAM Retard value. 5. CAM Retard value MUST be set between 6-8 degrees. If the value is within specifi cations, make sure the distributor hold down bolt is tight. 6. If the value is outside the specifi cations, loosen the distributor hold down bolt and slowly rotate the distributor until a value of 6-8 degrees is achieved. Tighten the hold down bolt securely, making sure the CAM Retard value does not go outside of the specifi cation. Once the distributor hold down is tightened, verify the value still remains between 6-8 degrees. Important: The basic principle that the distributor must be installed into the engine properly still exists. If the proper CAM Retard cannot be achieved, check the installation of the distributor. 7. Clean the surface of the old specifi cation decal and install new specifi cation decal, p/n R143170B-U.

Engines Affected: 2007-2008 5.0L MPI (Pro Sport) ALL S/N: 470001-485993 2007-2008 5.7L MPI (Excalibur) ALL

 

 

 

[DanE]

@TEL Is correct about the CAM retard needs to be adressed, it's really not timing related but let's not get into that.

With a Diacom it is a 10 min fix.

By rhe way new cap, rotor cables and spark plugs can mask the problem to the point you actually think you've solved it.

[Jody_Seal]

You mean you can't power time it ???

[DanE]

Adjusting CAM retard does not affect timing at all

[KRoundy]

Wow did this go down a rabbit hole... I'm curious about the concept of "GPS Drift" that @lazzn mentioned. What is this, technically?

[KRoundy]

OK. I went away and did some research and confirmed that this does happen. The satellites do have to be moved by the USAF and they monitor them constantly. To move it they take is offline, shift the orbit, calibrate it again, and then turn it back on. The new positional data is then sent out to everyone. Very fascinating and fun to learn more about.

 

[Orlando76]

Of course GPS only exist if the rockets carrying the satellites into “orbit”were actually able to penetrate the firmament. But that’s a whole other story.....

 

What impact would changing the ECU have on ZO and having to remap?

[6balls]

All I know is if you have a '07 to '09 SN 196 I'm envious.

[Orlando76]

Did you get a chance to remap or upgrade? See any results?

[Than_Bogan]

Remap happened.

 

So did an ongoing week of rain...