Driver drama at Nationals...

[klindy]

@MS sometimes slalom skiers also trick and/or jump too. We had several scheduling issues where events were almost overlapping for the same age group. Holding lakes to wait for one event to finish so you can start another is never popular especially when the lakes are scheduled to go past 6-7pm. So "shorter" events are a bit easier to schedule. Remember every age group skis all three events on two consecutive days.

[Booze]

My driver (M5 slalom) was good. He also had a positive demeanor, which I appreciated.

 

[The_MS]

I agree @klindy but some group is scheduled to be using the lake at 11am. So just schedule the group on 1 lake and use lake 2 for whoever is using the lake after the 1/2 group skied on lake 1.

[Wish]

@Than_Bogan I agree..kinda. If I knew what score was for the cut off at the beginning of the season, that would be one thing. But not knowing put's "fairness" on the back burner and logistics on the front burner at best.

[KdW]

I AM a W4 skier and was there on the infamous Lake 3 at Mystic Lakes last Friday. YES, the lake sucked, YES,there were rollers, YES, the conditions were not ideal. But I knew this was probably what I'd encounter. What I was not prepared for, was paying to particiapte in a National, Record level Tournament in which the driver could not properly line up the boat, drive straight in the course or have the boat up to speed at the 55's. Not to mention while waiting on the dock, seeing the driver hit the dock multiple times and bump the boat into a skier as she waited in the water. The conditions that W4 were given, in regards to the driver and judges flat out SUCKED! I hope that AWSA will take a good look at who they ask to pull the slalom divisions, there are highly qualified slalom drivers who are not 3-event drivers. Let these people be our drivers!!! Mystic Lakes was a beautiful sight and Lake 3 left some bitter tastes, but in the end I am glad I was there to support the sport love

[jcamp]

If anyone thinks they could figure out how to run the event without splitting up a division I encourage you to volunteer a week of your time at next year's Nationals. I'm sure the organizers will greatly appreciate your insight.

[The_MS]

@jcamp no desire to plan it or to plan on skiing in split group

[Ilivetoski]

@jcamp that’s a job for USAWS to make sure you don’t have an obscene amount of skiers in a division (raise the score required to qualify), if 700 people qualify and half of them sign up for a division there is nothing the LOC can do for that

[JackQ]

As a multiple victim of skiing at the Nationals were my division was pulled on two lakes often with widely differing conditions, I suggest: a runoff from the top five from each lake. This is the only fair solution an would only take an additional hour.

[bigskieridaho]

I know it seemed they were trying to save time by running on lake 3, but why did they even use that lake for anything other than practice? Just comparing to Nationals when they were here in idaho where they had another lake similar to that one that was only used in practice. The rest was run one the other two main lakes. I feel bad for the crews who had to run in those conditions.

[JackQ]

Getting back to the topic of W4, glad my wife or I did not experience this as I would have been banned from skiing for life. At a minimum I would had strong words, if not climbing up the rope, climbing in the boat and showing him how to drive.

 

The excuse that Lake 3 was too challenging and part of reason for the crapy driving is BS. There are challinging lakes to drive but lake 3 doesn’t deserve an honorable mention.

[bwreinke]

I heard that only the skiers on a Radar had erratic boat paths, possibly due to the inconsistent pull from the skier and/or the obnoxious and distracting colors of the ski. (Am I on the right thread?)

 

 

[lpskier]

There was nothing in my opinion particularly bad about Lake 3. The fact that it didn’t have spectators and that some driving may have been questionable (all I “know” is what I was told; I didn’t see the driving in question) didn’t make 3 a bad lake. @eleeski and I judged the M3 group on 3, and unless someone grossly overskied their average, they wouldn’t have placed in the top 15. That’s not a dig, and I have skied in the bottom half of a group at Nationals too. In fact, if M6 had been cut in half, I would have just made the top half (19/43: finished 12, 97.5. 98.5 got two guys on the podium) so I have been in their bindings. The fact is, because this particular Nationals was so well attended, adjustments had to be made. This particular adjustment to M3, it seems to me, did not effect results. I can’t say whether it effected scores, but in general, I think not.

[MarkM]

Slalom should have the best slalom drivers available.

Trick should have the best trick drivers available.

Jump should have the best jump drivers available.

Pretty simple.

[Chad_Scott]

@MarkM way to sensible

[eleeski]

Before ZO and PP, the hand driving skills of the driver were critically important. Now, the driver just needs to steer straight enough to keep the boat path review happy. No disrespect to @Chad_Scott - keeping it straight for the pulls necessary to ski a world record is an art. But avoiding thumping the buoys for a normal run is pretty straightforward. With ZO, it feels consistently right behind everybody. Almost every driver can be a good driver.

 

Problems (more realistically quirks particular to a site) can be addressed with site specific training and aids to the driver. An extended centerline flag at the end of the lake makes the lineup (and even in course) easier to keep a good line. Drop buoys give consistent set downs and start ups. Posting any unusual procedures for the skiers warns them what to expect. Dial the boats in beforehand. Do these things and your drivers will give skiers a good ride.

 

There's a lot of politics and perception (sometimes misconceptions) involved in driver selection and evaluation. I'm guilty of that, I want Elaine (or someone light) for slalom and Lyman (or someone bigger) for tricks. Really, put my numbers in ZO and steer straight - my score will be the same regardless of the driver. A smile, a word of encouragement or maybe some friendly banter from the boat goes a long way to relax me and get me focused on the skiing. Stressing too much over small details is more likely to distract me and bring my scores down.

 

Of course, if a driver's action or performance causes a distraction, well, that's not something a good driver will do.

 

Chad is not available to drive every event. With the right preparation, a "good" driver should give a pull that will allow the same score that we would get behind the "best" driver.

 

Eric

[bishop8950]

@eleeski "Almost every driver can be a good driver" really!? Sorry "But avoiding thumping the buoys" is not nearly good enough for the Nationals.

 

On a different note unrelated to Eric's post: I barely know Chris Eller, but he seems like a great guy, a fair person and a great driver. I don't know issues or challenges he faced in determining driving assignments for Nationals. So without that understanding, I would be reluctant to criticize.

 

This said, this whole thread is a bummer. In my last National ride (years ago) I had driving that was not good enough and I haven't forgotten it. Some of the best drivers in the world were instead on shore watching.

[Horton]

@eleeski

 

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[Than_Bogan]

How many triple pandas are needed to earn an all expenses paid trip to China to see them in the wild?

[LeonL]

With the new wider boats, thumping buoys is still in tolerance for pylon movement. Measure one at the water line(not easily done) and you'll see they're pretty wide.

[liquid d]

I can ride behind 2 drivers that boat paths would pass for a record, and one can feel great and the other horrible. It is more than just steering it, and the shorter you go, the more it matters.

 

[Than_Bogan]

Yes, each loop shorter dramatically increases the burden on the driver. I bet there are 1000+ drivers who could give me exactly what I need to have a shot at -38. I'm one of them (you know what I mean!).

 

But at -39, the field thins considerably, and no longer includes me. At -41 the list gets small. And -43 ... hi Chad :) (Ok, that's unfair to a few folks. But the list is very, very short.)

 

It makes a ton of sense to me to line up these extremely talented drivers with the folks who will actually be skiing those line lengths!

[bishop8950]

@Than_Bogan of course driving matters more as the rope gets shorter, but it really impacts the skier well before -38. I would say it really starts to matter around -28. THis said, I think if I was trying to drive bad I could take down a skier at -15 so maybe its critical even longer than -28.

 

My opener is -32 and I offered to be a test skier for many a rookie driver. My opener gets significantly/noticeably harder until the driver learns how to work with the skier. Sure I run can still run it, but if I were a skier at the nationals trying to get through 32 as my hardest pass, the driver still makes a huge difference.

 

Per what I think Eric was saying, we cant all ski behind Chad and perhaps that is not required. Ok, I agree. But I am under the impression there are more than enough qualified drivers for all events at Nationals. Maybe I am wrong, only Eller knows exactly what he was dealing with.

[Than_Bogan]

@bishop8950 I did not intend to imply that -38 was special -- it just happens to be the line length where I personally need a really good driver so it's my go-to example. I believe the pool of folks who can give an ideal pull gets smaller at every line length.

[sheskis7]

After reading all of the comments about W4 slalom event, I feel that the ACJ & ACD were almost as guilty as the driver. When they knew what was going on they should have stopped the event replaced the driver and started the event over. What were they thinking? Women 4 deserved to have the best conditions available, after all there were 18 skiers who paid the same entry fee as everyone else. Would they have told M4 to live it???

[Than_Bogan]

@sheskis7 I agreed with everything you were saying until the final sentence. It appears you are implying sexism played a factor, which seems very unlikely to me, and gawd I sure hope isn't true because this is already terrible enough!

[matthewbrown]

The best drivers don’t pull tournaments because they are too busy skiing.

[eleeski]

OK, I'll collect the pandas for thinking I could give Regina a good ride. But at 32 off where I ski, the driving is not that critical. I've had first time drivers pull me well at that line length.

 

W4 top scores were at 32 off (where boat paths are not hyper critical). The pull through the buoys could not fully account for the low scores. Setups, pull ups, crosswinds, chop or other factors would matter more.

 

M3 scores seemed low as well (different driver?). IM also was down (same driver).

 

Maybe I'm naive. But I've never had a toxic driver. Since ZO, I've never had a ride that I honestly could complain about.

 

If there is something conferring an advantage to some style of driving, we need to identify it and make sure it is equally available.

 

Eric

[Horton]

I have no words...

[markchilcutt]

My daughter's first season driving a not so easy to drive 14 prostar gets me a couple at -35. It's more work for me skiing but I am super stoked any time she gets to drive me! Probably getting off topic???????

[Jody_Seal]

@Horton ! Dude!!! You had the chance to double up and hand out another triple panda to the same person! would have made iconic history!!

[Horton]

@Jody_Seal sometimes I just can't give a ..... Panda

[Drago]

@Horton Has a Quad Panda been awarded yet? @eleeski , I assume you are practicing your sarcasm in your “slalom skiers are so sensitive” statement? (...as I recall your last half-million posts about boats and tricking). Sarcasm is my favorite

Anyway: some of the worst driving in my skiing “career” has been at Nationals (approaching the course, deep water starts,speed control inputs, etc); running in to crap is totally unacceptable; almost anyone can drive straight-ish through the course and that does not make them a good driver; one of the best drivers I’ve ever known was an assistant and therefore not “ qualified “; you don’t need Chad to have a great pull at Nationals.

Basically, if you don’t care the skier knows it and that makes you a bad driver. If you don’t practice on a challenging lake you’ve never driven, you don’t care.

If the assignment was changed and the w4 driver didn’t have a chance to practice on that lake, the CD set it up for failure.

(imho ^)

[JackQ]

My personal driver gripe is a driver that drives in tournaments but does not pull skiers of the same level in practice regularly. IE if you are not pulling skier at 38 or shorter don’t pull skiers in a division where skiers run 38.

 

The best example, when I moved to San Diego, Phil Adams looked my ski partner Scott Larson and I up, and coordinated our schedules so he could drive us twice a week. He said, “ If I am not pulling skiers into 38 or beyond every week, I have no business driving a tournament”

 

I don’t know the driver in question, hopefully I will never ski behind him; so I don’t know if he wasn’t experienced enough for a modestly challenging situation or just didn’t give a damn.

 

 

[LeonL]

@JackQ from the details previously mentioned, I would say the latter. (Don't jump on me for this). None of the W4 had averages above 3@35, so most any rated driver should have had experience pulling those line lengths. Conditions were commented on, but the top 5 finishers in W4 had scores that ranged from 2 to 7.5 buoys below their average. That may or may say anything. (Again, don't throw me under the bus, I'm not a sexist). Pulling women (or men) who max out at 2-3 at 35 off should not require the skills of pulling anyone through 38. That's obvious. So, back to the first sentence. I don't thnk it was a lack of skill or experience.

[elr]

Driver being pulled from a potential WR attempt (Record Tournament/Regina/Malibu) is an insult.

Not having the emotional intelligence to remove yourself from a situation where you can not give your best effort (if that's what it was) is unacceptable.

The other officials not intervening and making things right (e.g. re-riding the group) is putting the officials interest (time) ahead of the skiers interest (some of whom probably spent north of $1,000 for a set) and is what causes folks to be done with Nationals.

[Wish]

Courious. How much say does the boat judge have in this type situation. When can he/she say ...nope, you can not continue to drive.

[dshock]

I am relatively new to competitive waterskiing. This was our second nationals as a family and my first one competing. Unfortunately, this year wasn't great for me or my son. My son's set was impacted by a boat judge that didn't follow the rulebook following an error in boat speed coming off the dock. It is super unfortunate that a boat judge (or driver in the case of the thread) at Nationals doesn't provide a fair, consistent pull for the skier and follow the rules outlined for our sport when failures or accidents occur (and they will - I get that). What I would say in this case is that the situation sucked for my son and other boys in his age group impacted, but the appointed officials worked hard at the end of a 14+ hour day to make the most of a difficult situation and I commend them for that.

 

As for Lake 3, having been in Men's 3 and one position from the cutoff, I think that the necessity (not necessarily the decision) to move part of our group to Lake 3 sucked. I suppose that I can understand the need but the conditions were so remarkably different between the two lakes that I can honestly say if I knew what I know now, I would have left Friday morning and not skied.. My skiing sucked and I have no desire to deflect that lack of performance to anyone other than myself. And, I have no idea if the same driver drove for M3 and W4, but I can say that most of the things that were observed regarding W4 were happening in our group, too. The fact that the over-scheduling resulted in my Thursday evening practice being canceled probably had more to do with my poor performance than anything. Hopefully some day the $75 for practice will find its way back to my PayPal account.

 

Overall, I think that the Mystic Lakes crew and the appointed officials did a great job putting together the event. It was a huge task and I heard overwhelmingly positive comments. Again, in my limited experience, people that rant about "what is killing the sport" are typically more problem than solution. Beating up appointed officials, volunteers and site host over specific issues doesn't help grow the sport. Creating a culture in our community of learning from each issue like these and committing to get better each year, each event is the only way to get past this.

 

@eleeski, so interestingly there were drop noodles at both ends of the Lake 3 when they started Men's 3, but the driver ran over the one by the starting dock enough times that he cut it loose.

[lpskier]

@Wish The boat judge is in charge of the boat. Now find a boat judge (who may not be appointed and who may be a regular) with the nerve to say that to an appointed senior driver. I would think it would take a senior or above judge with lots of years of experience, a good reputation and balls the size of weight bags. But you are absolutely right that the boat judge is the guy to make the call.

[MarkM]

Most boat judges don’t realize they aren’t there just to count buoys.

[LeonL]

@lpskier it may not influence the driver at all, but if all the previously described driving flaws actually happened I'd like to think I would at least try to reason with the driver, and continue to say "you did it again". Then say "could you try to get lined up a little earlier?" It would have been a tough situation seeing as how there seemed to be no support from the ACJ and ACD.

[Dirt]

I agree with LeonL and the other comments but I was not there. The boat judge has a lot going on. We have to watch the ZO screen and make sure what the skier asked for has actually been programmed. You have to watch boat path, watch for rollers, birds, etc and count buoys. The boat judge confirms the time, calls it in along with speed and rope length thanks to zbs. He or she has to ask the skier what they want to do next. Make sure the rope gets shortened or speed is increased or both. Now the judge makes sure it gets programmed in and notify scoring. Wait for the beeps or skier to say ok or prod the skier at or near second beep, watch boat path and repeat.

I am not making excuses but I have been asked to judge events I had no business judging in the past and didnt want to appear lazy or like I don't want to help.

I may still owe Matt Brown a few thousand dollars. You are welcome Kevin.

[Horton]

@LeonL please don't make assumptions about the actions of the other officials. The ACJ on that lake was one of the most conscientious and respected judges in the sport.

[LeonL]

@horton "assumptions" may be a bit strong. I'm basing everything on comments from those who were there. Those comments seem to support the fact that those officials allowed the driver's incompetent actions to continue. If I misread those posts please accept my apologies. Please see comments by @sunperch. Also similar comments to mine that were expressed by @sheskis7 without admonition. I see that I've overstretched my bounds, seeing as how all my comments were influenced by the "unacceptable in a court of law" term hearsay. So, I'll as gracefully as possible stop posting on his thread.

[JackQ]

I think a lot of judges that are competive skiers would have taken action. I would like to think I would (a regular judge) have done something. But I have a low tolerance for incompetence and as a 20+ year Naval Officer I dont care if I piss someone off.

[lpskier]

@JackQ I think you would have too,

[RichardDoane]

when I had the promo boats (MC's) from 2010 to 2016, I noticed a correlation between drivers that hit the dock and overall poor driving habits. It used to drive me crazy how some people could be so careless. It's the little things like pull up alignment, set down ease and positioning, manuvering, and boat handling skills that make the difference. Skiers can tell when the driver cares about their ride. I feel sorry for that W4 group.

[Roger]

@JackQ - My personal driver gripe is a driver that drives in tournaments but does not pull skiers of the same level in practice regularly. IE if you are not pulling skier at 38 or shorter don’t pull skiers in a division where skiers run 38.

 

I totally agree. One of the things I do regularly is pull as many different skiers (with as many different hulls) as possible. I pull skiers running 28mph long line all the way to 41 off regularly. I believe this helps me maintain my tournament edge. Becky Lathrop does the same. I personally know a couple of Senior drivers who pull only their ski partners. All you have to do is watch the end course video from a tournament to see why that may not be the best practice strategy...

[ski6jones]

I agree with what @Roger just said, but the pool of skiers that run those lengths makes it extremely dificult to get seat time driving for them. Understandably so, they want that extra 1/4 or 1/2. The difference between a good driver and not at those lengths is probably more than 6 buoys for the skier. Becoming a competent short line driver takes some work and sacrifice.