Fred Winter runs 1.5 @ 43 off while competing in the Bordeaux slalom cup!

[Stevie Boy]

Who is going to tell Freddy that he only got the score because the driver was moving the boat for him, utter BS.

Not Me, I Value my nose too much !

I believe Freddy is one of the few that may break the World Record .

[DanE]

@Horton Questioning Pigozzis streak of 4@41s ?

How about when Freddie ran 41 twice @ Bennets some five years back, his first time ever running it ? Can't recall there was any controversy with those scores.

Oh wait, Bennets is not located in Europe!

[MillerTime38]

@Stevie Boy so you have end course video to prove me wrong?

 

If a skier set a record outside the US and everything was approved as far as rope, handle, boat path than I would absolutely accept it.

 

All I am saying is every time someone posts a monster score into 43 (9.25m) in the US people are very quick to also show boat path video to verify, I never saw any boat path video from the tourney last year where 4 or 5 skiers ran 41 or this boat path of Freddy running 41.

 

I am skeptical of any score no matter in the US, Europe, Asia, Australia, South America, Antarctica, Africa(you get my point) where a skier runs 41 off because of how much of a difference a 2” wiggle can make when there is no boat path video

[MillerTime38]

@Stevie Boy also not saying any drivers are purposely weaving or swerving but the margin for error trying to keep the boat path in tolerance at that short of a line is almost non existent, I have seen several records get disallowed in the US for out of tolerance boat path with drivers that have driven approved records

[Stevie Boy]

I am sure the Officials have scrutinised the boat path, it,s not for the wider audience to Judge, there would be no point in having Officials if everybody else in the world was capable of making the judgement.

Perhaps we should have a App so that we can all look at the boat video and vote whether we thought it was within tolerance or not, you know a bit like the "X Factor"

[MillerTime38]

wink wink @Stevie Boy I am sure they have. Only one reason not to make it available for all to see....what is X factor? Sounds like some soft porn or something

[Stevie Boy]

Or Something !

[ballsohard]

I want @Horton to go on a euro trip to show us if these really are PB factories with narrow courses, bad driving and long ropes!

 

[Horton]

@ballsohard I'm pretty confident that I would get hot times and short-sided at every ball.

[ballsohard]

@Horton no doubt that they would run you through the course at 38 MPH then explain it by shrugging their shoulders and saying "Zero off"

[mfjaegersr]

@ballsohard I think it’s pronounced ‘Zed Oof’...over there? ?

[matthewbrown]

Doesn’t take much at 41 to make it much more doable for these elite skiers, 4” here, 4” there....I’m not saying this is what happened, only pointing out that a minimal amount of help at 41 can dramatically increase the consistency, confidence and top scores of the best skiers in the world. Its good that someone who has skied competitively for 45 years, and who happens to have his own platform to speak, is actually leaning on his experience and speaking out about verified anomaly’s in our sport.

[APB]

Peace and Love... Peace and Love. All European scores from the past and this day forward are bullshit.... All will be criticized. Peace and Love.... Peace and Love. ✌️

 

[Stevie Boy]

@Horton , I am truly dissappointed, I thought you were the type of person to Promote the sport and not bring it down,

I guess ,I got it wrong, I can only see damage here, especially to pontential sponsorship and we ask why the sport is on the decline, thankyou for your contribution.

[Luzz]

I'm going to receive a river of "off-topic" here, but so be it…

 

I am getting to realize we are getting a bit fixated on scores in our sport. Which of course, why shouldn't we? Buoy count makes things interesting and it's what every water skier around the world can relate to, from 24mph to 41off alike.

 

However, I must say that this fixation is creating problems, and not small ones.

 

Importantly, it is making casual observers overlooking what ethically matters the most, namely fair play. Provided all the controllable conditions were the same for all competitors, this tournament is as good as any other. With the exception that it is much better than most tournaments, given that an organizer went through ridiculous efforts to pile up enough cash to assign Elite Points to his event and have skiers compete for cash.

 

Allow me to give you some personal experiences of organizing a pro event, and then you do with these what you may.

 

The third edition of the San Gervasio Pro Am in 2016 had a lot of tremendous scores (see Pro M. The h2h semis with Nate running 41 and Freddie following it up with a 4 pulling to 5 I believe stands as the highest deciding scores in a run-off). As always, we did our best to put skiers in the condition to ski great scores. And trust me, one thing is to talk about the details on BOS or thinking about them for your own skiing, another thing is to monitor them to prepare an event.

 

Take last year. Same site, same boats, pretty much same drivers, same ropes, same course, same buoys, same water level, etc, etc, and, importantly, two extra years of knowledge and experience. Very different scores. Look at scores from the first round, and you can quickly see how, as an organizer, I started to freak out. I quadruple checked everything I could come up with, until a few fellow skiers stopped me and made me understand that all was right. Of course I (and all the others who work to put up our Pro Am) want to see great scores on our site, for the skiers, for the reputation of the lake, and so on. But the most important thing remains giving everyone the same conditions and make it a fair tournament.

 

If someone (skier, organizer, judge, driver, etc) was found guilty of cheating or favoritism, then they would deserve all the scrutiny there needs to be. And the consequences this involves. However, discouraging a group of people who decided to put up cash for skiers to fight for, out of allegations of "wanting good scores" is, quite frankly, inconsiderate.

 

And while the money is still small compared to a bunch of other sports (probably almost all of them), this year Pro M can ski 6 pro tournaments for cash in 5 weeks in Europe (frankly with no real coordination efforts on the organizers' side), something that sounded like a fairytale only two/three years ago. Take any of these pro skiers, and they'll tell you that, provided conditions are the same for everyone, they won't care whether it takes 4@39 or 5@41 to win.

 

One little personal story to end. I skied a tournament in France in 2010 or 2011. The organizer had put some cash up. Scores were really good and I managed to pull out a win with 2.5@41off, my PB. Since one skier tied the European W Slalom Record, videos were sent for review. Turns out the course had been loosened the night before the event in the hopes of great scores. E&A put the site under scrutiny, I believed they were not allowed to organize L or R tournaments for a number of years. And, of course, scores at that tournament were cancelled. I was bummed, but guess what I cared the most about? That the wire transfer with my cash prize made it to my account.

 

Provided conditions are fair, any cash prize tournament is a good tournament.

[Stevie Boy]

@Luzz with you all the way, thankyou for the insight, I know who you are, what you stand for and what you have done for the sport, I have one word for you, Respect !

[ALPJr]

Congrats Freddy! imo San Gervasio Pro Am is the best thing going in the pro circle. The Europeans seem to be doing well, as are Swiss, Cali and other tourneys in the Americas. Still hoping for some entity to organize connect these cash events into a "tour".

[APB]

Great work @Luzz !!!! You’re a doer not a taker!!! Skiing needs people like you.

[Jetsetr]

Fair and balanced reporting and not interjected with opinions of the reporter is something we will probably never see again....very sad....

 

Instead of being happy or proud of someone’s good scores we look to rip them apart and claim a unfair European advantage...

 

Maybe the boat was was weaving on Hortons first 38 off pass on the Wonder Ski, or on his 39 off at the tournament. Do we have video proof of the boat path?

 

As someone who sucks at course skiing (and who at one time was seriously considering competing just me make me a better skier) the shadows cast on the elite skiers by BOS management really turns me off. I come to BOS to to learn more about everything thing in the ski world, but lately the biased opinions have left a somewhat bitter taste in my mouth. JMHO.....

[Zman]

@Jetsetr I did not see a single post here by anyone "to rip them apart" as you claim someone was doing to the skiers who scored well.

 

[Jetsetr]

Horton doesn’t think the scores are valid-and and he doesn’t think that Mr. Winter is capable of those scores, and attributes those scores to European course that is questionable. That’s close enough to ripping for me. From a moderator/owner of the site it’s un-excusable in my book and without proof irresponsible.

[Zman]

Wrong again. @horton knows Freddie is capable. He was questioning why so many good scores happened.

[Horton]

You guys that think this is bias or uneducated or un-researched opinion do not give me enough credit. I do not consider myself a journalist* but in cases like this I absolutely do the research and burn up the phone before I make a comment. You think I want to piss off powerful officials in the sport for fun? Trust me this is not my business best interest.

 

I would likely have missed the France scores last week if an elite skier had not pointed it out to me. Before I posted I talked to a few more elite skiers. None of them want to speak publically for fear of reprisals. So if I was writing a formal article I would say that "Anonymous Sources" question the validity of the scores.

 

As I said a few days ago the event in terms of "Skier against Skier" is not in question. The problem is that the World Standings List and the Elite World Standings List impacts the paychecks and business opportunities for the top skiers. Additionally standards matter.

 

For those of you who are angry at me - if you have not taken the time to pull up the standings lists and the scores from the events in question, imported them into a spreadsheet and done some analysis you are part of the problem. If you have not had private conversations with some of the elite skiers but you do not believe my reporting then you are part of the problem. I really do not want to insult anyone but many of you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

(*my college degree is actually journalism)

[skibug]

I guess the old motto of "practice scores don't count" might need to be modified to "tournament scores (in Europe) don't count".....actually...I think the whole thing is really ridiculous...JUST GO SKI!!!

[Horton]

The one thing I would like to retract from my previous comments is the word "Europe". Pointing at the continent any specific country is an error and is sloppy on my part.

 

What I am against is what @Luzz described in his last paragraph.

Turns out the course had been loosened the night before the event in the hopes of great scores.

 

If I thought the scores were suspicious at the lake next door or at @MS's house or in Florida I would be just as critical.

 

At this point I am likely banned from both Spain and France. That was never my goal.

[eleeski]

Journalism majors don't take enough statistics classes. Correlation does not equal causation!

 

If you have proof of rules violations, expose it. If it's just that a couple of pros say it felt too good, that's just rumour. If you question tolerances that the local senior judges and homologators accept then you might be a bit too uptight.

 

Good for your traffic but bad for the sport.

 

Eric

 

Note that the scores @Luzz mentioned were discovered and properly dealt with. Other good scores were investigated and upheld.

[MISkier]

Question: how does one “loosen the course” when it consists of buoy lines connected directly to single surveyed anchor points or connected directly to carefully measured attachment points on boom arms that are interconnected by a mainline of correct dimension?

[Horton]

@MISkier more interesting is the fact that there are only one or two approved Record Capable cable courses* in the US. The sites that produce extraordinary scores overseas are often cable courses.

 

*At least one of the courses at West Palm uses cross course cables. I can not find the Rule but I think cable courses require a special exception to be accepted by USAWS. Someone will correct me it that is wrong.

[Drago]

Pretty sure cross course cables are RC. Havent looked lately but they used to be

[Horton]

I just got off the phone with a Tech Controller about the cable course thing. He did not have the rule book in front of him to absolutely confirm what I said above but he did tell me there there is talk among the TCs here in the US to further tighten specs.

[Jetsetr]

I don’t get offended if people that know more than I do say I’m wrong. On this site, that’s most everyone. In GENERAL I don’t care for accusations, rumor or speculation without PROOF. I’m a little “old school” that way. Show me proof or keep it to yourself...once you throw it into a public forum any and all unproved accusations, rumors or speculation puts a target on your back and you’re fair game for criticism. If you play with fire you may get singed once in a while. This kinda stuff sucks the fun right out of competition skiing. And maybe I’m part of the problem for calling out reporting non fact based accusations, rumor and speculation since I don’t fall in line with the “norm” of society today where everyone gets a prize and there are no tests.

 

[Than_Bogan]

@eleski I haven't read everything @Horton has written on this topic, but I can't recall him ever making any assertion of causation. It is absolutely true that correlation is not causation, and people have made collosal errors by thinking they are the same. However, causation does require correlation, and therefore correlations become places to make hypotheses of causation, and then try to test that hypothesis.

I personally interpret @Horton to be merely saying that a strong correlation deserves investigation until it is understood to be either spurious or causal.

[Wish]

Cheaters eventually get cought..note a certain Wisconson ski site and skier. If there is nefarious goings on it will bubble up to the surface and it will eventually be exposed and resolved though official channels I would hope. I would also assume athletes, if they feel wronged in some way or it hurts their standings, would bring this up for investigation without it needing to be bantered about here? Does more need to be done then that? Seems anything short of waiting for investigations to happen would lean on the side of just opinion sounding much like accusations based on others opinions. Would think that does not do much for the sport or for correcting things. But what do I know...I ski a cable course with PP...so nothing will ever count ;)

[Jaypro]

enough already....lets move on

[MISkier]

@Wish, I think you may be referring to a Wisconsin ski site and skier. I’m not aware of any reported incidents in Michigan.

[Wish]

Wooops..fixed

[skierjp]

Pretty sure all of Okeeheelee courses are all cross cables except for the practice lake in the northwest corner

[The_MS]

There will be no big scores at our lake. We are spot on with the latest survey but when I go south I ski much better. PH, alkalinity, ice or whatever prevents WR from going down.

[Drago]

Cross cables—meaning they have 10 cables going shore line to shore line with 2-3 buoys attached. Not what most people picture when you say “cable course.”

[eleeski]

@Than_Bogan It's pretty insulting when @Horton says we don't have any idea of what we are talking about if we don't agree with his selective spreadsheet analysis that every good European score is bogus. He may not have specifically said correlation or causation but he is certainly championing a conclusion that the scores aren't legit.

 

A review of the skier's ride, boat path and survey may be a reasonable investigation. Happens when a record performance occurs - even local records. Probably happens any time a question arises. Irregularities have been discovered in the past. Usually everything is in tolerance and the scores properly stand.

 

Perhaps the issue is with tolerances. While it is against the rules to intentionally use tolerances to effect performance, scores count as long as everything is deemed in tolerance by the officials. Some calls involve judgement so the internet judges might disagree.

 

What do I know? I'm just a senior judge who has chief judged L tournaments, hopped in the water with a measuring tape when someone complained about a buoy placement and verified the survey, called a world record, talked to most of the Open slalom skiers in the west recently, ski in an elite division and is married to a statistician? But I'm part of the problem because I want some proof that something is wrong before I condemn it?

 

This thread started as a celebration of good scores from some top skiers peaking. I still congratulate these fine skiers.

 

Eric

[Horton]

@eleeski I find it insulting that you probably haven't done any research on the topic yet you are sure I'm wrong.

 

All I'm saying is here are some sites or some specific tournaments where the scores seem anomalous or extraordinary.

[bishop8950]

We should all care about the standards in our sport and do our best to maintain them. There is nothing wrong with questioning a series of exceptional results at a particular event. Be careful, be professional, do your homework, but ask away. We should welcome this not fight it.

 

I once saw a skier run a full pass better than he should at my home site. I KNEW something was off and I didn’t yet have proof. Everyone else was cheering and congratulating the skier. I called the boat to make sure they shortened. They had. I know the course was right, the ropes were right and the driver is solid. So I checked the handle when it came back to the dock. Sure enough it was 18” long. Had I not asked the question and challenged the result that score would have stood and would remain a false course record today.

[Wish]

@Horton are these or will these sights ever be investigated? Is there any reason pros that feel it's affecting them negatively can't just ski there and get these "anomalous" scores?? Is there any site in the US that seems to a ski way better then most where more records have been set in any or all devisions then any other? I'm not understanding the fuss. There's either action being taken or not. If not, every pro should head that way. If there is action being taken, one would assume the scores would come back down to earth. Is that an over simplification? Seems kinda black and white to me. If I was a pro, I'd think I'd live there during the summer months vs FL.

[Horton]

@bishop8950 I love you man

[GregHind]

@horton I really appreciate this site and the work you do. You have a huge influence in this sport and your influence has helped create a lot of sales and a LOT of jobs for people who love this sport. In other words I have bought skis and gear simply because of your reviews when I didn’t need new stuff. I’m about as far away in this world as is humanly possible from you and you have influence here.

 

Everything I post on the net is in my own name. I’ve never before seen a situation where I’d suggest creating an anonymous account but in this case, I feel that would have been a much better way to say what you felt you needed to say here

 

You have a lot of credibility. You do something very important for the sport.

 

On the flip side, we need sponsors, site owners and volunteers to come together to create events world wide. It’s pretty disheartening to be called out publicly and it would be a shame for the sport to lose these peoples enthusiastic contribution or to scare away others.

 

If there is a problem, should we ideally be congratulating for what they have achieved so far and helping them? If somebody cheated that’s a different story but is that the accusation here? I would think we are a long way from thinking that. In the first instance, I think we should be thanking these people for their contribution and helping them to make sure everything is spot on

[Horton]

@Wish

The very elite pay bills partially biased on ranking lists. If every event is not held to the same standard the skiers who miss the events with "extraordinary scores" may lose financially. As I've said twice now in this thread the competition between skiers is not being questioned. The guy on the top of the podium deserves to be on the top of the podium. The question is if the scores that go into ranking lists are legitimate.

 

Here in the US there has been some disciplinary action mostly because of boat driving in the last few years. Unfortunately I think some of that was overzealous on the part of the disciplinary committees but in general it raised the bar for all senior drivers. On one hand we drove a couple of good guys out of the sport, on the other hand, all the remaining senior drivers know that they cannot weave and get away with it.(*) So to answer your question yes we are striving for tighter specs in this country and yes some events and scores have been heavily scrutinized.

 

(* the driving disciplinary actions from last few years is much more nuanced than I'm going to go into in this thread but has been discussed at length in the past)

[Wish]

@Horton that's good and I agree. But back to my other questions. Are these sites being looked at?. If not, why? Are these pros that can't get there leading the fight of unfairness? If not, why? Has Nate ever skied there (he has to be one of the highest paid skiers) and if so, why has he not posted...well, world records? Yes all sites should be as close to the same as humanly possible. This seems to not be a new thing. Not understaning why it was not looked into last year. World rankings means the world. Which probably means local (a country for example) governing body may have different ..just slightly diff standards to some degree that they feel is right or at least ok and I'd guess very hard to change that?. If you are gonna be world ranked...shouldn't the skier be skiing all over the world?. If $$s stops them, isn't that a diff argument all together?

[Horton]

@wish All good questions. IDK

[eleeski]

So the sport is better off with ridiculous standards for tournaments? Is it good that Imperial and Adobe no longer do L tournaments (because it's so much more difficult logistically)? Wouldn't losing one cash tournament opportunity hurt the pros more than dropping a spot on the list? "Tighter specs" help this how?

 

I think the sport should be run for the fun of the participants and for entertainment. Not for a religious adherence to the rule book.

 

Sammy Duvall made the cover of Sports Illustrated back in the days of stopwatch timing and favorite hand drivers. If it's in tolerance, it counted. The sport was a lot healthier back then. And the leading media people weren't questioning every performance.

 

If something is wrong, fix it. If people ski well, don't whisper innuendo, just enjoy it!

 

Eric

[elr]

Seems like placement v buoy count should determine "the paychecks and business opportunities for the top skiers."