Fred Winter runs 1.5 @ 43 off while competing in the Bordeaux slalom cup!

[Horton]

@eleeski

 

What is the purpose of Class C vs Class L?

[RB]

@Killer what is a third of a meter?

Metric is not better.

[matthewbrown]

@bishop8950 I could have used an RS handle on a few occasions...

[Drago]

18” long does not happen by mistake.

[skispray]

@Horton I get your point. But you’re crusading on the idea that every site should be as nearly identical as possible so that, for the purpose of the world rankings list, all tournament scores are essentially ‘apples to apples’ comparisons from site to site. Based on my personal skiing experience, however, the idea that scores from different sites can be compared meaningfully is kind of illogical. I would bet that every single tournament skier knows about which lakes in his or her local area produce the best scores. Not, in my opinion, due to slacking off on tolerances or weaving, but because some lakes just simply ski better than others. I’m absolutely not saying that’s the case about the sites in question here. I’m not saying anything about them one way or the other. What I am saying is that we all seem to agree that placement at a tournament is a legitimate competitive yardstick, and I’m getting the impression that most here also agree that site to site buoy comparisons are not as meaningful. It’s not that sites are wildly different, but even a half buoy difference from site to site can be a big deal on that list. So why not argue for the simpler, more intuitive, and logical fix: change the ranking list to be based on competitive outcomes at the tournaments instead of raw buoy count? Again, I’m not saying we shouldn’t strive for legitimacy in our specs. We definitely should, but it would seem that your main motivation for this crusade could be achieved in a much better way that would avoid this whole mess altogether by changing the way the ranking list is calculated.

[MillerTime38]

@eleeski if you want a sport run for entertainment go watch the WWF or whatever wrestling is called these days.

How is it fair to skiers losing spots on a world ranking list because they don’t attend these tournaments where most skiers are scoring-extra buoys?

 

How often do officials review boat path video unless a record is broken?

[Stevie Boy]

Lets look at this another way, I doubt very much that the ski site actually makes any money out of holding a Pro Event, I know when we held one we were out of pocket, it;s a lot of hard work to get everything as it should be, so if people are going to knock it or question your integrity, why bother holding the event at all.

Surely this will lead to less events and less earnings for the Pro Skier and a Lower Profile which will not encourage sponsors.

Everbody Loses ! all the Whoo Haa ! about Spain last year and what came out of it, Diddly Squat, thats what !

Nobody came up with anything, if I remmber correctly the same people were involved.

Complete & Utter BS

Said My Bit I,m Done Now !

 

[Than_Bogan]

@Stevie Boy On one specific point, I disagree: Controversy is one of the surest ways to increase the visibility of pretty much anything. Quite frankly, I never paid any attention to European pro tour stops. But now I'm curious!

[skispray]

@Than_Bogan controversy may pique your interest but @Stevie Boy wasn’t saying less events due to less viewer interest, he was saying less events because organizers have less incentive to put on the tournaments if every time they do their integrity is ripped to shreds on the internet. BOS is great but it’s doubtful that new-found interest in Euro tournament stops from ballers would be enough to override that.

 

I’d go back to the point @Luzz was making: the pros want to make money with their skiing, and they do so by beating their competitors, so shouldn’t the ranking list be based on competitive placement? Aside from eliminating @Horton’s primary concern it also gives skiers the incentive to go to the same tournaments as one another instead of seeking out the sites where they will get the best scores. That should mean better events. The legitimacy of the scores from a record-capability standpoint should still matter, but it should be separate from how the pro skiers are ranked.

[Wish]

Than, so if you owned a site at your cost, labor and love, busted your butt to hold a tournament shelling out big $$s with tons of labor only to find out that your site, tournament and you personally are held in question via the largest media outlet in our sport through opinions and no do process, you'd find that to be a warm fuzzy cause people now know of you and your site? Or would you toss up your hands in disgust and say..not worth it. I believe @Stevie Boy has a point.

[Killer]

@MillerTime38 MMA would be a better analogy. Massively popular, some of the greatest athletes on the planet, rules and incredibly entertaining.

 

striving to be entertaining doesn't have to have anything to do with make believe....

 

@RB 33.33~ cm easy. a 1/3 of a meter is mostly irrelevant though & it was a joke. people need to lighten the hell up and ski!

 

 

[disland]

Root of the problem is the Elite ranking system. Fix that and this problem goes away

[eleeski]

@MillerTime38 At the L tournaments I chief judged, someone was always monitoring the end course video. Either the chief boat driver, myself or an assigned judge - that's required. Replay scrutiny? We never had to do it.

 

There's hardly any money in the sport today. WWE or MMA make more in one event than the entire year of waterskiing. Regardless, I'm not interested in WATCHING wrassling. Waterskiing is not a spectator sport, it's a participant sport. Very different fundamentals. Stirring up a controversy over rule strictness might help viewership but will not encourage participation - with skiers or sponsors. This will filter down to the pros with fewer tournaments, smaller prizes and less sponsorship.

 

@Horton The differences between L and C are substantial in the manpower needed and the quality of the manpower. Surveys, cameras, extra judges, strict anti conflict rules, official's experience requirements, latest model boats and more paperwork make them a challenge. What do you get from the skier's performance perspective? The best boats, judges and drivers at their best - so your performance should be enhanced.

 

Why do I prefer L tournaments? The scores from L tournaments go into the World rankings lists that are qualifiers for world tournaments.

 

Eric

[MillerTime38]

@Killer no mma is not a good comparison because there have very strict rules. Eleeski said loosen up on the rules. If MMA was only concerned about entertainment they would probably allow eye gouges, nut shots, and steroids....

 

@eleeski so you can tell real time a boat moving a few inches out of tolerance through the course?

 

I am dumb founded people actually think @Horton questioning scores will bring down the sport. If anything it should make these sights be more transparent and prove us wrong that everything is legit, but I very much doubt that will happen

 

 

 

 

[Scaramanga]

Seems like there is a correlation between ball count and opinion on this subject.

[Intheday]

There are race tracks, cricket pitches, ski sites, football fields, swimming pools that just perform better or worse than others all built in the local area to a know standard. I can’t tell you why on Olympic swimming pool is faster than another.

 

This thread reads like some one didn’t go to an event and is now butt hurt because they fell down some list they value. They then whisper to someone who wasn’t there that something is off because of the performance.

 

I find it sad that in small sport that we have gone from celebrating a performance to being more concerned about a site and it’s impact on a ranking list.

[Jody_Seal]

 

[addkerr]

Fred 1 @9.75 round 1 at FUNGLISS PRO AM 2019. Must be another bad course or forgiving driving. Or perhaps the guy is on fire and all the euro accusations should stop.

[Than_Bogan]

@Wish There is no doubt @Stevie Boy has many valid points.

 

But let me talk to what my own mindset would be in the situation you described. We must consider two possibilities. The first is that I am intentionally cheating in favor of the skiers. In this scenario I deserve any and all criticism.

 

The second is that I'm doing my best to create a fair tournament. In this case, *I* will be the one leading the charge to try to figure out why my tournament's scores seem statistically improbable. I will be reviewing and publishing boat path videos. I will be interviewing skiers and judges. I will welcome hypotheses to test further. And if I find that anybody associated with my tournament has been cheating, I will boot them.

 

But if I've done everything I can to scrutinize the situation myself and found everything checks out, then I will sleep well at night knowing that my site just happens to be awesome.

[Drago]

?

[DanE]

@Than_Bogan What you just described is actually three possibilities.

[Horton]

@DanE

@Than_Bogan went to MIT so his basic math always includes an extra dimension

[ALPJr]

Yeah Freddy good. Nice first round for women and men at Fungliss.

[dvskier]

Looks like Freddie scored 1@43 off twice today. No one else came close to him. No doubt about it now-no crooked stuff going on. Freddie is the man to beat, it will be interesting when Nate starts competing again.

[Swerve200]

Nate who?

[mcskier41]

All this heavy scrutiny. All I can say keep up the good work FW! His time has come now that he has found the right ski. I'd like to say that the results are from his hard work, skill, and that he's got the height and reach which doesn't hurt. And finally on a ski that seems to be working for him. Hmm, same ski company as what the other guy that is world record holding status.

[MillerTime38]

Everyone seems to be missing the point here, no one is doubting @FWinter scores or his ability Horton is questioning the abnormally large clusters of scores

[Zman]

@MillerTime38. Not everyone. :smile:

[eleeski]

So get a camera or phone, take pictures of the course with reproducible reference points. Take some end course video (yes, you can get a pretty reliable feel from most end course views). Measure some ropes and handles. Get some real data.

 

Better yet, volunteer to help. If you have expertise, it will be useful. If not, you will learn a lot. And keep everyone honest - regardless of the agenda.

 

Hopefully this thread will get back to celebrating good scores.

 

Or a discussion of tolerances, perfect storms and how to make sites that generate ridiculous scores.

 

Speaking of anomalous sites, did I mention that my lake is for sale? Due to the prevailing weather and unique (totally legal) bottom contours, the site can GUARANTEE incredible scores? Must sell, reasonable price.

 

Eric

[Horton]

Hmmmm Seems that at least one of Freddie's 41s from last weekend will not be included in the world standings data because of boat path review.

 

 

[APB]

Good job Freddy. Keep it rolling.

 

As for nate.... not sure how anyone can give him an ounce of respect personally, as an athlete or a coach moving forward. Unless that’s your thing..... ?

 

I’m blown away the brands he rides for still advertise and sponsor him. Much like a predator music artist, a producer, a ceo, etc..... this “champion” is still perceived to have more value than his victim(s). That sucks. The ads during the masters alone made me want to vomit.

 

I’m sure this will get pulled or censored but it needs to be said, known & shared.

 

FNS.

 

For all those who do good in this sport ?.

[APB]

Yes off topic, but only because nate is mentioned above.

[ISP6ball]

@APB you must have solid information on the details of what got Nate his 3 month suspension to be that passionate about your comments.

 

I'm amazed at the people that have pretty much crucified him with zero knowledge about the situation. I hope you never serve on a jury.....

 

In the meantime I will hold all judgement until something substantial comes to light.

 

If and when that happens, I will make my decision on how I feel about Nate Smith.

 

Sorry for the "off topic" comment.....

 

[Horton]

Gentlemen there are threads about that topic. This is not one of them.

[rico]

Back on topic:

I think it’s right to challenge an anomaly like too many good scores at one event, which to @bishop8950 ‘s point the organizers should be the first one wanting to be be challenging and making sure they got it right.

Now the fact that video review means one of Freddie’s 41 will not go in the book is a good sign that something is done right. Having said that, I thought this was the case when a record is set only but the score itself would stand... Any ideas?

 

As for records and elite tournaments in general, the question is: Should we trust TCs alone with the risk that they may have made a mistake or worse. Is there some kind of oversight by the international federation to verify the TC’s reports... I would like to think a comprehensive checklist of verifications and evidences could be implemented without adding too much to all the existing official’s burden.

I personally think the sport and athletes are worth it!

[JAS]

Am l the only one that thinks this is silly? In my mind given all of the variables involved there really can be no such thing as world record. Even with tight tolerances, the combined favorable variation of multiple variables could easily de-standardize an event and provide more favorable conditions. The slide rule guys should be the first to point this out. Rules really are to make sure we are competing in the same sport. In the real world weather and water conditions alone probably effect negative performances 10:1.

 

World standings points should be performance based and adjusted with consideration to size and strength of competitive field. Given the nature of our sport I think that we should be doing nothing other than cheering anyone that that runs into 43 off and also thanking those that donated countless hours to put on an event to make It possible. Just my opinion

 

[alex38]

Awesome skiing, shouldnt a bad boat path be reviewed and determined on the spot so skier can get a reride?

[APB]

Haha censored.

[MillerTime38]

@alex38 nope, just ask Nate who had a world record denied over boat path. I guess if a skier complained driver was wrong siding him and they went back and reviewed, but how many skiers are gonna complain about boat path when they run all 6???

[Drago]

Why does this make no sense⬆️?

@Horton ?

This is the 3rd thread that i can think of that just goes whacky ( nautique props, texas docks). Is it a scot chipman ban thing or my phone or what ?

[Kelvin]

Interesting article on cheating allegations in marathon running. https://latimes.com/sports/la-sp-marathon-cheating-allegations-frank-meza-20190621-story.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab

[UWSkier]

Didn't Jamie B have a WR set in Europe wiped out on boat path review back in 2007 too? Old issue?

[paul413ski]

There was no boat path video due to an error not switching the recording kit on

[BraceMaker]

@alex38 - yes I think there are some attempts at this - splasheye slalom for instance.

But I'd agree for the purposes of the score of the event before the skier leaves the water they should say it was good enough for the event.

 

As commented in the drone thread though - how long till they can have drone video of every skier for 200 feet with survey and deviation information.

 

Around here there is a guy who does roof surveys with drones. Gives pitch, angles, linear distances etc.

 

Add a few other easy bits of tech like IR Tape on the top of the bouy, the tip of the pylon, or the top of a ski and the same drone could probably give you very good accurate instant measurement - and maybe that's done to "looser" tolerance that we could all live with and maybe that could build in tons of other cool opportunity for user experience.

 

 

[ALPJr]

I didn’t do a detailed analysis, just a quick glance and the Fungliss standings and scores looked close to Bordeaux.

[andjules]

Fungliss results

Does anyone know anything about Jaime Metcalfe from New Zealand?

15th on the women's elite rankings, but 4th on the world ranking (and won Fungliss this weekend). Does anyone know why Manon didn't ski the finals? She got another 1@-41 in the first round.

 

[ballsohard]

What is this thread about? Fred Winter? Nate Smith? Boat path? Jamie B? Jaime Metcalfe? European scores vs North American scores? All I intended to do was congratulate Freddy on a great performance.

[whitem71]

European water is faster generally. Those who can handle it post big scores, especially with flat conditions and warm sunshine...

[Than_Bogan]

@ballsohard On the internet, all threads are eventually about everything :)

[ALPJr]

Thanks for the link @andjules Nice skiing @Luzz Looking forward to watching San Gervasio