Need advice for -32

[Buoyhead69]

I’m running -28 at 34.2mph. Not automatic, but I expect to run it. What got me there is; 1. high on the boat before the gate, engine box in line with 1 ball at turn in. 2. holding my position past the 2nd wake, maintain angle, don’t give up to the boat. 3. When I finish my turn (hip to handle is my in course thought) I immediately point my rear shoulder/chest toward the sky (right shoulder on 1,3,5). This is the in-course thought that helps me maintain a stacked position. Additional info: I ski a 67” ARC that I have dialed in with 0.748 DFT, 6.91, front binding at 30”. I like my settings, I feel stable & my front foot heavy on the ski. 8 degree wing. I cant run -32, I’ve gotten a look at 5 ball but very inconsistent sometimes I can’t get to 3. I have a training loop that Brenda from In Tow made which is -30, but still nothing more than 4 balls. Anything I’m missing here? Do I just need more reps? Is a training loop a good idea? Tweak my settings? I lose angle coming into the ball, I ski at the ball, I can’t get wide to the buoy consistently. I have played with my zero off, I’m usually B3, but tried C2 and I may stick with this. Advice needed please!

[Chef23]

Almost impossible to help without video.

[Buoyhead69]

I have video of me running -28 on my iPhone but I don’t know how to post it. Apparently I need a YouTube link? If anyone can do this I’ll be happy to send the video.

[scoke]

agree with chief23 BUT

 

It's your gate. You took 1.25 meters off the rope:

Are you moving in 1.25 meters earlier? Are you swinging the ski (slowing down) into 1, 1.25 meters earlier? If the answer is no to either, then you are going too fast at 1 ball therefore barely turning the ball then can fight to 3 ball.

 

If you look at the scores in the ranking list for Mens 2/3/4/5/6, you'll see a trend "2@XX" pass. There is a reason for that. Gate speed, energy and timing.

 

 

Additionally, ditch the cheater -30 loop, it's a crutch, fake and doesn't really help you learn the real skill sets

 

 

[scuppers]

@scoke thanks for that post. very interesting advice. I never thought of it that way but it makes a lot of sense

[ski6jones]

Something I always do when working on my next line is increase my gate intensity. it happens subconsciously. I never start running the next pass consistently until I tone down my gate, among other things but always that one. I try to do everything better, not harder.

[h2onhk]

@Buoyhead69 I'm in the same boat. 28 is fairly consistent but I scrap like hell for anything beyond 2 @32. I've run 32 three times in my life and all 3 started with a perfect ball 1 and then staying calm the rest of the way. Panic leads to bad decisions and I start to rush things. The 32 gate timing and speed are my problem. I find that if my timing is right my speed is off and vice versa. Both have an impact on my edge change which had an effect on where I'm at on the boat. 9 times out of 10 I have to eat a ton of slack on 1 and then it's a rat race to 2. Honestly I think a lot of it is in my head. I'm so worried about the perfect gate turn in timing I forget some fundamentals. 2 things I'm going to try to focus on next set are staying connected with the boat longer by not releasing the handle too early and down course vision. Just my 2 cents. I feel your pain. It's frustrating.

[Oldutskier]

I’d slow the boat down 1 mph so you can get the feel of -32. It makes a big difference and if your gate is wrong, the lower speed will give you enough margin for error to get the feel for the pass. This advice, of course, is worth what you are paying for it! I’d slow down the coat before I used ‘tweener length. Keep working at it!

[jimski]

I can run 28 99.9 % of the time

32 90% of the time

The big difference for me is patience in the turn maintain the pull don’t pull to hard

Once I settle down

It’s no problem

[3mustskiteer]

@skoke is there any "one" thing you can do differently in the gate setup from -28 to -32 that will kinda magically make it click? Or is there quite a difference in the gate setup all together? I too struggle with coming into ball 1 way too fast vs my -28. When I get the -32 gate right & run it I have trouble duplicating what I did right. BTW congrats on the Nats win!

[BrennanKMN]

I am a big fan of slowing the boat down and just getting a feel for new line lengths. That has helped me immensely. I'll usually jump down a whole notch. Sometimes 2 as I ski both 34 and 36.

 

What brought 32 together for me was not skiing as hard. I would run 28, shorten and then mentally I would work twice as hard and screw myself. Ski 32 like it's 28 effort wise, just a little wider on the gate. In any event, post some video!!

[ALPJr]

To each his own. I love my -30 loop and find that it helps me train for -32 when I'm not quite in peak shape. Then again I’m super happy if I run my first four passes, -15, 22, 28 and 30 or 32. For me the gate and 1 seem to be the key at -32.

[The_MS]

Excess speed is your enemy. Going too fast ball to ball will kill you. Gate and 1 to get on a good path and then control excess speed swings.

[TheBigHead]

Download the youtube app, make an account and upload the video its actually pretty straight forward. Without video its hard to say for sure.

 

28 and 32 ski very similarly, so if your 28 is feeling automatic you should have no trouble figuring out 32.

 

How long have you been running 28? How do you structure your sets in training? (starting line/speed when you cut the line etc.)

 

 

 

 

[scoke]

@3mustskiteer

 

Speed, energy and mechanically, the closest rope lengths are 14.25m to 13m. They are nearly the same pass but if you’re not doing a couple things correctly, it won’t feel the same.

 

The #1 thing I would put out there for the 28 to 32 might be a combination of a few important things.

1) Width on the boat (not height, there is a difference)

2) Level shoulders on the move in

3) Start the move in 1 tick/1 notch/1 count EARLIER and SLOWER

4) Maintain level shoulders across the boat.

 

As most guys shorten the rope (myself included), we flat out generate too much energy/speed then don’t deal with it well. Therefore managing energy and speed is crucial not to over-amp the ski as when the rope gets shorter, it’s a mathematical fact, we WILL be going faster as we approach the center line. How we deal with either 1) not creating too much or 2) dealing with it is the real magic to it.

 

 

[jhughes]

As @scoke's main problem-child student I'm just glad to see @scoke back on BOS! I do not do any of those 1-4 and that is why I can't run 32. Soon, though. The comeback is mounting.

[Than_Bogan]

Can you elaborate on wider not higher? I've been told the reverse: focus on higher because width is misleading at very short line lengths.

[BobF]

On other thing to think about (cause you don't have enough already :) )might be to stop trying to get your entire body (or head) outside the buoy line. You can likely ski 32 like a narrow 28. Even more important as you progress further up the line.

[Andre]

@Than_Bogan

You can't be wide with a slack rope but you can be high with a slack rope...i think?

[lkb]

Posting this for buoyhead69

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ispaGW5Qs

 

 

[lkb]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=CSLuqJ7hluE

[epnault]

I am struggling at the 28 line length but what some of you say is what is happening to me. I am smoking fast at 1 ball and can't control the speed. I ski my 15 and 22s @ 34mph pretty easy but when I get to 28 it is a train wreck. I think I am pulling too long and too hard.

[Buoyhead69]

The 2 passes above are back to back -28s I ran last Christmas at Eden. This summer I’m slightly better at keeping my position through the 2nd wake but this is probably representative of where I am at -28. No video at -32 at present, I’ll work on it. Thank you everyone, great advice a lot to digest, I need a lot of time on the water. And thank you @lkb for posting this.

 

To answer a couple questions above: my opening pass is -22 at 32.3mph. Then I go to -22 at 34.2 and try to run that smooth at least a couple times before going to -28. If I don’t get my -28 I typically go back to -22 and run that again before going back to -28.

 

Interesting to hear about speed control at shorter line lengths- the importance of less speed into 1 ball. I have to work on that. Sometimes I come screaming into 1 on my -28 and that’s why my -28 is not automatic. Staying wide but not fast is important on my -28 and I struggle with it more at -30/-32. I also got some PMs on email. Thank you!

[BrennanKMN]

I'm no pro, but I see a few things.

1. Get wider/higher on the boat for the gate. You're drifting back a good amount by the time you cut in.

2. Be sure to focus on looking down course when crossing the wake, almost looks like you're looking at the next ball. This causes you to let up earlier rather than continue working thru the wake. You're almost hitting the wake on a flat ski some of the times.

3. To me it looks like you're not letting the ski finish the turn before loading the line. This is causing you to have a shallower angle and break at the waist. Ski back to the handle after the turn and let your body get into a stronger position. You have a bias to have your COM a bit back too.

 

If I were you I'd try and get my 28's to the point where you are waiting on the balls, you kept getting later and later in that pass. That stuff will catch up with you fast at 28 and shorter.

[Chef23]

@Buoyhead69 it is definitely a gate issue. Your gate will hold you back from running more difficult passes. I would suggest pulling out a little later with more energy to get and maintain more width/height on the boat. The extra energy will allow you to be maintaining roughly the same speed as the boat to make the turn in much easier and generate more speed earlier. It is important to have speed into the first wake not necessarily out of the second wake. I believe even trying to run 32 most of us learning to run the line length still need to work through the second wake but then you need to ride the line out to the buoy.

[skihart]

@scoke can you elaborate on this a bit more. I can’t wrap my head around it but I think it’s a key element. Especially for me at 35.

“It's your gate. You took 1.25 meters off the rope:

Are you moving in 1.25 meters earlier? Are you swinging the ski (slowing down) into 1, 1.25 meters earlier? If the answer is no to either, then you are going too fast at 1 ball therefore barely turning the ball then can fight to 3 ball. “

 

[ski6jones]

Lots of good suggestions about how to improve the gate above. Just keep in mind that everywhere you read "speed" above you should also be thinking direction, especially through the gates. That will set the rhythm for the pass. Speed directly at 1 ball is very different than the same speed directed outbound. You need the right velocity (speed & direction).

[jimski]

One thing I noticed is your com is way behind you .

If this means anything.

[scoke]

@Buoyhead69 :

Yes, your gate could use some work but your main issue is your mechanics of your leverage position as well as your perception of where you are in the course. Yes, you drifted on the gate but initially you had the width you needed.

 

The good news is you’re a strong turner. The bad news is, your leverage position and duration is going to make running 32 very difficult. I’d recommend getting some coaching and redefining your leverage position and duration. It looks like you’ve had coaching but it appears to be focused on how you are moving into and out of the buoy. Just my humble opinion. Until you get a cleaner/stronger/longer leverage position, 32 will be a mountain.

 

@Than_Bogan , @Andre nailed it.

My point was, if you are on a 13m rope, get 13m wide on the boat not get only 11 meters wide on the boat or “high on the boat” with a bowed/slacked rope and only be 11 meters wide while having a 13m rope. Perfect pass days, sure. Zero off, nope. It's a game changing concept.

 

OR this might resonate, move out against the boat in an arc-parabola NOT parallel to the boat. An arc, as the boat moves away from skier, the rope is tightening giving the swing up or out away from the boat hence width. A tangent, parallel, just gives height and speed.

 

@skihart , the shorter the rope, the faster we’ll be going towards the centerline. That’s a fact based on centripetal physics. So at 12m, you have to figure out how to slow down much stronger (start your arc earlier or stronger when it happens) and/or don’t create as much energy on the outside by the proper gate move in. (get both!) 12m is where it really starts to show up. You've got to balance the equation, the boat will still get there 1.77 seconds at the boat guides Meanwhile, if you don't make a change, you'll be arriving in a late/hot/fast bad spot. Move in earlier and slower as the rope gets shorter. It's proven in the Zero Off era.

 

Last day of posting for me as it’s time to start skiing again. Better coaches on this website and skiers too who can help more than I can. See you again august of 2020.

 

[Than_Bogan]

Thanks for taking the time to explain @scoke! I get it now.

 

Fwiw, I'd love to see more posts from you, but I do get the concept that actually doing stuff is a better use of time than typing into a little box...

[Buoyhead69]

@scoke and @jimski when you guys talk “leverage position” and “COM” I assume that’s another way of say stacked position? Thank you for taking the time to look & comment!

[jimski]

I view centre of mass and stacked a little different. You can be stacked ankles knees hips and shoulder all in alignment.

Com can still be forward or back from centre

(Balance point on the ski) of the ski

Your com looks to be behind your ankles

I my self always need to get up on the ski more.

Like @scoke says leverage

Leverage comes from your core. ?

If your com is behind you, your tip is up and the tail is buried in the water your putting on the brakes. If your com is forward and your centred on your ski it’s riding flat, then your moving forward and on the gas.

 

[1skinut]

@scoke @chef23 I often see comments to get higher/wider on the boat. Could you provide an example of how wide you get based on feet outside the 2 4 6 buoy line or based on skier angle from the pylon at 28 and 32 off line lengths?

[Chef23]

@1skinut I don't look down the buoy line because width varies depending on the line length. I focus on the pylon(and the entrance gates) and look for more of an angle on the boat. Picking an exact point on the boat varies a little bit depending on the boat. Frankly I don't have an exact spot on the boat as boats change but it is more of the feel of the angle for me. When skiing I do have people in the boat keep an eye on it to make sure I get to a consistent and adequate height on the boat.

[TEL]

I am at the same place, struggled at 28 this spring, after getting lessons have been running them consistently. Now 32 how can 4' be so different, but I thought the same thing working on 28 at first. This morning I thought about not pulling so hard through the gates and i had very little slack and was connected to the boat around one ball. Now if I can get use to not being surprised not having slack and get in a strong position I know i will be able to get past 3 ball

[jhughes]

This is all a symptom of using 15/22 technique to get through/survive your 28 pass. Good enough to get through 28 maybe 70% of the time, but not 100%. As such when the green loop comes it's over quickly. Having been banging my head on 32 for a few years now I'm trying to focus on rebuilding and redefining my fundamentals. It's a lot of work.

[Buoyhead69]

So I skied a couple sets today, felt really good at -22 then information overload kicked in and my attempt to move my COM forward had me dumping my tip in the water before the 1st wake. Fortunately my son was driving, inspired me with a few positive motivational words, and I ran my -28. Unbeknownst to me one of my best friends & ski partners was watching me from his pontoon and said I looked good & stacked at -28. He’s brutally honest so it meant a lot. I have a lot to work on, no -32 today, but really overwhelmed with gratitude for all the great feedback. THANK YOU for the advice and PMs. Horton (I assume it was you from BOS support) thanks for reaching out even while going through a tough time with your dad... “Stand tall... when you think you’re tall, get taller.” I believe that will be a good in course thought. I agree my COM has move forward for me to run shorter line lengths. Thanks everyone, @lkb for posting the video and all the incredible feedback trying to help a fellow buoyhead through the green part of the rope. And it’s nice to know I’m not alone in my struggles with -32.

[hemlock]

Nice post @Buoyhead69, it reminds me of a long time ago in junior high school when a volleyball coach said to me once.... " This new technique will bring your level down a bit, but soon it will eventually bring your level higher".

 

Practice is key, you learn so much by attempting new techniques.

Hopefully after failure and success, you find the right moves that work for you.